Upcoming Wagons & Crossovers

odman · February 2003

The Car Connection today reports that GM plans to make a Saturn minivan. They are re-doing the Venture/Montana in 2004, and adding a Buick model. However, I suspect (or hope!) that the Saturn van will be something entirely different, perhaps based on the European Zafira?

Can anyone shed light on this?

http://www.thecarconnection.com/index.asp?article=5732&sid=17- 3&n=156

ateixeira · February 2003

rob: do what I did - get a Legacy without the moonroof, and then put in an aftermarket one. I have an ASC that open above me, all the way, and is 17"x30". Love it.

The new 3 wagon looks cute, but still smallish. Taller then the P5, though, and perhaps a little roomier inside.

More GM rebadging, yuck. Offer something new and different, I hope Saturn gets the Astra van instead.

-juice

robr2 · February 2003

...they have one that will work even with that funky roofline in front??

ateixeira · February 2003

Yep, it starts right where that hump ends.

You can see some pics right here, click next to see pics 5-8, there are pics inside and out.

It's real nice. $900, and it's one-touch open or close, tilt or untilt, plus you can program it so that it closes when you remove the key (this impresses the neighbors more than anything).

-juice

revka · February 2003

What Edmunds.com Says: "The Magnum takes what is essentially a station wagon and turns it into one of the coolest looking carpool rides in town."

Read the full story in Edmunds Future Vehicles Guide. And let us know what you think.

Also, check out what others have to say... and share your thoughts in our ongoing Dodge Magnum discussion. Thanks for your participation! ;-)

Revka
Hatchbacks & Wagons Host

ateixeira · February 2003

Looks cool, aggressive big wheels and chunky styling.

My first concern would be visibility, the windows look quite small. Maybe headroom, too.

But I like it.

-juice

forlife1 · February 2003

The all new X3 will arrive on the shores in November 2003 and it is looking really nice but what about the Volvo XC50 the one that is suppose to compete against the BMW X3. There has not been any information on it Volvo is keeping it under tight security. Not even edmunds has it listed in the future vechicles forecast section will Volvo be able to compete with the new X3 when it arrives. Anyone with info please reply.

odman · February 2003

Here is an article previewing the Ford Focus based C-Max monocab for Europe. It is a nice looking car although I think Ford has missed the boat by going with a 5-seater rather than a 7-seater like the Opel Zafira and Honda Stream.

I wonder if the C-Max will show up in North America, or whether Ford will decide the needs it meets are being satisfied by the Focus wagon.

http://just-auto.com/news_detail.asp?art=40288&dm=yes

ateixeira · February 2003

It certainly does look like it would compete with the Stream and Zafira, interesting.

Looks half way between the ZX5 and the Focus wagon. I'm not sure it would sell here if it only offered 5 seats, there is nothing to differentiate it.

-juice

odman · February 2003

The Toyota Wish is selling very strongly in its first month of sales. The article points out that minvans account for 23% of sales in Japan, compared to about 8% in the USA. Minivan sales are about 16% of total sales in Canada, so that partly explains why there are so many Canadians on the minivan boards.

No wonder the Japanese lead on innovative, small minivans like the Wish, the Stream, the Grandis, etc.

The Wish is profitable for Toyota and runs between US$13,500 and $18,200 in Japan. It would be a great value in the US even if it started at $16k.

http://www.detnews.com/2003/autosinsider/0302/21/b03-90878.htm

odman · March 2003

NY is a month away but already we are hearing about possible unveilings that are relevant to the wagon/cross-over category. The Car Connection reported yesterday that two cars unveiled in Geneva will be in NY. These are the Honda Accord Tourer as will the Focus-derived, Ford C-Max. The report on TCC also suggests the VW Touran may still be in the running.

As well, "Andre" in the TCC forum reports the list of models at NY will include the Hyunda LaVita. I had never heard of this before but a quick Google search turned up an Australian review. I think it may not be quite what North Americans like, but at least Hyundai is paying attention to the segment -- Honda take note: Bring the Stream to NYC!

http://www.car.net.au/carnet/reviews/article.asp?ArticleID=3153

hwyhobo · March 2003

Okay, look at these two:

LaVita
Vista

All this "invention of a new paradigm" is just a bunch of hot air. We're just going in circles and from time and time someone else is taking credit for a huge "invention" because they make it a few inches longer/higher/smaller/shorter. Chrysler is particularly good at redefining the market with such earth-shaking revolutions.

ateixeira · March 2003

I can't follow either link to the LaVita, but maybe they could have a Ricky Martin signature edition with crazy power called "LaVita Loca".

Ba-dum-pah!

Thanks, don't forget to tip your waiters!

But yeah, the Colt was a cool ride, before its time. None of those ever did much volume in the USA, though. Look at the Nissan Stanza wagon, that strange looking Tercel, and the Honda Civic Wagovan.

The CR-V costs double what the Wagovan did yet sells a ton more due to the styling.

-juice

immovable · March 2003

I really wish Ford would build the Freestyle FX - with the trick roof. It would be my next car. Wagon buyers buy wagons for one reason: utility. If they cared about something else, they probably wouldn't get a wagon. The utility and versatility of the Freestyle FX is fantastic! Probably the only way I'll own a sedan in the near future, too. Please build the FX, Ford!!!

revka · April 2003

From Edmunds' Future Vehicles Section: 2005 Mercedes-Benz GST Large Wagon. Check it out and let us know what you think!

Also, come share your thoughts in our ongoing Mercedes-Benz GST discussion

Thanks for your participation! ;-)

Revka
Host
Hatchbacks & Wagons Boards

shued · May 2003

I feel difficult to figure out that how many customers will buy Pacifica. If I can only expend
$25,000 to get EX T&C minivan, why I will expend
$30,000 to buy Pacifica. At the Upper end, there
has M-B staff coming. Can someone tell what is the Pacifica target sale volume per year?

qbrozen · May 2003

when i saw the commercial last night that mentioned pricing. I just bought a honda pilot with leather for under $30K. Before that, I was telling my wife maybe we should take a look at the Pacifica. Glad I didn't waste my time. That expensive and it only seats 6? I don't get it. That power liftgate is NOT worth that much to me.

ateixeira · May 2003

It's not meant to compete with the Pilot, the MDX is closer especially because it's smaller and more luxurious. Mind you, I think the Pilot is by far the best value of the three.

My guess is it'll handle better, and that in-dash Navigation systems is at least interesting.

The Pilot EX leather w/Navi is $32,482 TMV, thought he Chrysler will cost a tad more at MSRP, you can expect discounts and rebates before long.

-juice

qbrozen · May 2003

i think anyone shopping for a 3-row SUV will compare it whether the manufacturer intended it or not.

ateixeira · May 2003

I agree fully. Chrysler is just hoping you cross-shop it with the MDX and RX330, and *not* the Pilot.

-juice

porknbeans · May 2003

I'll agree with what juice said about the hopes of Chrysler. I think that reality is that Chrysler doesn't have the name cache that Acura and Lexus have. I know that this is their market strategy and the new Crossfire and Pacifica are part of that push.

shued · May 2003

Thanks, guys. You have same feeling as I have.
I think Chrysler tries to prevent its loyal
customers to buy Lexus RX330 or Acura MDX. It
is impossible for Chrysler to attract new
Customers of Pacifica from Lexus or Acura.
Lexus, Acura, M-B are upper end, Toyata, Dodge,
Honda is low end. What the Chrysler segment?
The future of Chrysler brand will like
Mercury brand at Ford and become smaller and smaller.

ateixeira · May 2003

But Chrysler is (presumably) their upscale brand. Otherwise it would have been a Dodge.

Keep something in mind, there are approximately, oh, 7 billion Chrysler vans on the road, and those owners will want to upgrade to something new and different.

The number of Odyssey owners is virtually insignificant (1/10th, if that?) compared to the minivan owners base.

-juice

shued · May 2003

It is true that so many Chrysler minivan owner.
But there MSRP marketing will kill it. At 1998,
I had bought LXI T & C van and I thought I get
good deal at that time. But later, suddenly,
EX model show up, which made me feel I was stupid.
All resale value has gone. After Honda and Toyata
find out the taste of the minivan market and have
enough building capacity, they will catch up and
take the crown of minivan from Chrysler. I think this will happen at 2005. Now Pacifica is there at $32K tag, I believe there will
be Dodge version at $24K tag soon, because Chrysler needs to
keep running the minivan building capacity while its minivan sale volume will be reduced, Just like Ford does on Taurus sedan.

ateixeira · May 2003

You're right - when prices drop resale value erodes, and they probably miffed more than a few owners that way.

Their customers are addicted to incentives, so I wonder how long before those start.

-juice

revka · May 2003

Hi Everyone- Information about this upcoming new wagon is now available in Edmunds' Future Vehicle Section.

Also, come share you thoughts with us in our new Mitsubishi Lancer Wagon discussion.

Thanks for your comments! ;-)

Revka
Host
Hatchbacks & Wagons Boards

ateixeira · May 2003

I much prefer the old front end, but at least it's boxy in the back. Saw it in person at the NY auto show, the front end looks too Pontiac Sunfire. Space isn't as good as the Focus, but about the same as the Jetta wagon.

At least it get the 160hp or so engine.

-juice

mazdafun · May 2003

Good, more competition in a very nice format.

ferretwalrus · May 2003

With introduction of the sporty Si hatchback and gas/electric Hybrid sedan, Civic should see no major changes for a while, though Honda jealously guards its plans and could spring a surprise or two. One of those could be a U.S version of the ultra-sporty 200-hp Type-R hatchback recently launched in Japan and Europe. Another prospect is the Stream, a Civic-based sport wagon that's been sold overseas for about two years. We spotted one a while back at American Honda headquarters, where executives were presumably evaluating it. One source predicts the name would be changed to Latitude for U.S. sale, assuming that's approved. If it is, look for a 2.0-liter 4-cyl engine, tall-body styling, and seating for up to seven in Honda's reply to the aforementioned Matrix and related Pontiac Vibe.

Honda is also said to be mulling a smaller-than-Civic car for North America. This would be based on the popular Japan-market Fit, a low-cost 4-dr hatchback known in Europe as the Honda Jazz. It's another high-body 5-passenger design, but with 1.6- and 1.7-liter 4-cyl engines and, say overseas journalists, surprising interior room for the overall size. Industry-watchers think American Honda might appropriate it to counter Toyota's forthcoming youth-oriented Scion models, but only if those threaten bottom-end Civic sales. Nothing is firm yet, but the betting is that Fit/Jazz wouldn't reach U.S. dealers until model-year 2005 at the earliest.

revka · May 2003

Thanks for the news. Also, I've just re-opened the Honda Latitude discussion. ;-)

Revka
Host
Hatchbacks & Wagons Boards

revka · August 2003

Information on the 2004 BMW 5 Series Midsize Wagon is now available in Edmunds' Future Vehicle Section. Check it out and let us know what you think!

Spy Photo of the 2004 BMW 5 Series 4dr Wagon:

For more discussion on this subject, come join us in our ongoing BMW 5 Series Sport Wagons discussion, from post #205. Thanks for your participation!

Revka
Host
Hatchbacks & Wagons Boards

ateixeira · August 2003

Boxy rear looks better than the sedan, but I bet it gets that same ugly face. Bangle is ruining BMW design.

-juice

porknbeans · August 2003

The butt looks bloated to me. The rear quarter around the wheel well looks like it needs to be trimmed up slightly.

fryingbologna · August 2003

C'Mon, Acura... you know we want it! Jump on in to the crossover waters!!

Ah, a TSX PShop-wagon isn't what I want...

Yikes! Be careful what you wish for!!
http://www.jdpa.com/businessservices/automotive/publications/powe- rreport/200307/0703_ss1.htm

ateixeira · August 2003

They already make a euro Accord wagon, so it would be cake.

Add AWD and lift it slightly and voila, you have a crossover.

-juice

lancerfixer · August 2003

I'd take a TSX wagon as-is!

ateixeira · August 2003

I would too, but it's tough to make a business case for plain wagons in the US.

-juice

hesitant · August 2003

Help. I have a family with two teenagers, a pre-teen, and a child. I have driven a full-size van for the last 12 years and now want a smaller vehicle that has fun new features, a sun roof, a comfortable ride, is quiet inside, gets good gas mileage, has rear air conditioning control (I would also prefer dual front air control), and really fits the 6 of us. I do not want a mini-van (just tired of vans. I'd like to hear from anyone who has bought or even tried out some good vehicles for 6. Are any of the future ones worth waiting for, or are there some good choices out there now?

I have been searching and comparing vehicles on this site for quite a while, but I have to go a long way before I find out if it only seats 5. For example, I just decided to consider wagons since many of the new ones are quite sporty looking. But they don't tell me right off how many they seat. Or if I ask for comparison vehicles to something like the Honda Pilot which seats 8, it puts up others that only seat 5.

I have driven and considered the Chrysler Pacifica, Volvo S80 (actually can get 4 in the back seat), and the Acura MDX. I would like to see a Honda Pilot but can't locate one in my area, and received a message from Edmunds that local dealers would contact me, but that was a week ago and I haven't heard anything.

I have not driven them yet, but I understand that I can get a bench front seat for the Toyota Avalon and the Dodge Intrepid. But Edmunds comments that the Avalon is pricey and I suspect that the Intrepid is not close enough to the luxury ride that I would like to come close to for an in-between price. My husband wants to consider a Ford Expedition because they are on sale in our area for about $6,000 off right now, but I haven't driven one and your site says that it drives as big as it looks. I don't want another BIG car! We've looked at vehicles priced up to $40,000, most being in the $35,000 range. However, my husband would like to stay in the $25-30,000 price range, and I suspect I may need to go with a used vehicle to hit that.

Any comments about the vehicles that I have mentioned, or about any wagons or other vehicles, new or used, would be greatly appreciated. Thanks.

glxwagon4mo · August 2003

Wow...it sounds like you are looking for the Holy Grail of family transportation.

Here are my thoughts...

1) If you're coming out of a full size van, and need comfortable seating for 6, scratch those sedans off your list right away! Yeah the avalon does offer a bench front seat - but the middle occupant rides second class due to the hump on the floor from the driveshaft. Also, I believe there is no headrest for the middle seat either. The plus of the avalon is that it is in your price range.

2) While the "sport wagons" are nice, only a few offer additional seating for more than 5. You might consider the Pacifica in this group - but I think it tends to emphasize luxury cruiser, not sporty. The other true wagons with the extra seats have a third row that is rear-facing in the cargo area. These seats are only suitable for kids and some question the safety of these seats.

3) SUV's that seat more than 5 with good gas milage (read >17 MPG in the city) are few. The Honda Pilot, Acura MDX, and Volvo XC90 with the 2.5T engine are ones that come to mind. The honda would be the value leader of the group and comes closest to your husband's target price. The ride in the Pilot is a little less "sportier" than the MDX. But if you have test driven the MDX, you will have a pretty good idea as to what to expect with the Pilot's ride. Don't expect Honda dealers calling you about the Pilot (even with you're inquiry). If you're interested in it, I think you'll have to be more proactive due to the demand for the vehicle.

4) I know you said no minivan, but the Toyota Sienna and Nissan quest have a lot of what you are looking for.

Just my few cents.

Good luck

George

lancerfixer · August 2003

I dunno...Volvo, Subaru, and VW seem to do ok with their wagon offerings. A TSX wagon would never be a volume leader, but all the engineering grunt work has already been done. It wouldn't require a huge investment, other than certification and marketing. I'd buy one.

ateixeira · August 2003

Could be, I'd like to see it.

Seats for 6? Vans are generally more fuel efficient, since you mentioned that, but check out the Pilot, Rendezvous, MDX, Pacifica, etc.

-juice

revka · August 2003

From Edmunds' Headlines section: Chevy Plans Retro HHR. Also, come share your thoughts in our new Chevrolet HHR wagon discussion. Thanks for your participation!

Revka
Host
Hatchbacks & Wagons Boards

ateixeira · August 2003

Interesting. Should be more useful than the SSR.

-juice

ropedart · August 2003

Its coming and it looks like a baby MDX with suicide doors according to Motortrend. Basically a luxury Element with hybrid drivetrain. I expect the Element by 2006 to get painted cladding as a LX model and get a whole bunch more interested buyers. Even though it will cost thousands more for the paint. It does not matter how much you market the thing as tough and rugged people still want to wax and shine and preen over their SUVs. Shiny paint helps that. I know I own an Element and all the owners baby their things.

http://motortrend.com/future/spied/112_0308_news_sketch/

designman · August 2003

Wondering if anyone has info on the the Freestyle. Is it going to happen? Stopped by a Ford dealer recently and curiously, none of the sales people even heard of it. They insisted I was talking about the Freestar. Had to sit them down at their on computers and point it out online.

BTW the BMW 5 wagon above looks like a hearse.

revka · August 2003

ropedart - Post #208. Thanks for the information!

designman - Have you had a chance to check out our Ford Freestyle discussion? Good luck.

Revka
Host
Hatchbacks & Wagons Boards

designman · September 2003

Thanks, Revka. Missed it. Will go there.

ateixeira · September 2003

I don't see how the RDX does anything the MDX can't do better.

I dunno, maybe it'll be sportier, like the FX45 is.

-juice

xplorx4 · September 2003

I didn't find any posts about this after a brief search. Does anyone have any comments on an upcoming Honda "truck"?

What makes a truck a "truck"? Is it the bed? Must it have a 1/2-ton minimum carrying capacity? Body-on-frame construction? Is an El Camino a "truck"? How about a Subaru Baja?

ateixeira · September 2003

That sketch is very aggressive looking. I think the actual one will basically be a Pilot with a small bed in place of its 3rd row and enclosed cargo hold.

It should still be a unibody, indy rear suspension, basically a light duty car-based crew cab, would be my guess. The 3.5l engine has adequate power, but payload and towing will be limited compared to body-on-frame trucks.

What makes a truck a truck. Well, it's pretty arbitrary nowadays. The PT Cruiser is a truck only because it's rear seat is removeable. The Baja is considered a truck because is has a seperate bed, even though it's also a car-based unibody.

IMO, both of those are a mix of the two, or crossovers, if you will.

-juice

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