Edmunds dealer partner, Bayway Leasing, is now offering transparent lease deals via these forums. Click here to see the latest vehicles!

Toyota Engine Sludge Problem

1…9394969899…121

Comments

  • fxashunfxashun Member Posts: 747
    Mine were real life figures at the dealership where I work. 1997 Pearl white A4 no paint 50K offer of $7500. Lets use my next car...A 1996 Honda Civic EX 4 door Paint on hood and bolts turned on core support, 107k. This car still pulled $4500 in the appraisal lane. And that's CHEAP for a Civic.
  • wishnhigh1wishnhigh1 Member Posts: 363
    Where did you pull that from? I did a search for A4s on autotrader.com for A4s from 1997 to 2000.

    Do me a favor and replicate that search. Go to www.autotrader.com, enter the Audi A4, and the years 1997 through 2000. Sift through the results and truthfully try to tell me that Audis have zero reslae value. In fact, with over 500 results, the lowest price listed was $10,900...pretty far from what you are claiming.
  • Mr_ShiftrightMr_Shiftright Member Posts: 64,481
    In my professional opinion, it is unsupportable that Audi suffers any *substantial* difference in resale from most cars of its type and price, including Lexus.

    That pricing information is grossly incorrect . 1997 Audi A4 resale and 1997 BMW 325 *retail* resale are just about the same, at 61% dealer asking price, West Coast, clean car, average miles, good records.

    This data is from Kelley Blue Book, and I am a paid consultant for them, so I know something about this.
  • john339john339 Member Posts: 229
    The info quoted earlier were residual rates used for leasing. The numbers quoted were for 2002 models. They are an "estimate of what the car will be worth after two and four years, expressed as a percentage of the suggested retail price". The numbers came from a company called Automotive Lease Guide which is a "privately held company in Santa Barbara, California, has been the benchmark for residual values in the United States and Canada for over 35 years."

    According to Kelly Blue Book www.kbb.com, there was no 1997 325 model sold in the US.

    However KBB does list the RETAIL price of a 1997 328i with 67,000 miles at $22,400 and a 1997 A4 2.8L with the same mileage for $16,900. Thats $5500 less than the BMW per KBB. Both similarly equiped 5 speed models on the west coast. The prices FX quotes are not retail and sound about right for a 4 cylinder A4 at auction.

    I think we've strayed way away from the original point, but its been a fun exercise.

    http://www.kbb.com/
  • john339john339 Member Posts: 229
    Bob,

    If an oil analysis revealed traces of the chemical glycol, what would the presence of glycol do to the engine oil and ultimately the engine?

    And what about the presence of excessive fuel or silicon in the oil. What effect would those items have on the engine oil over time?

    Some of the information I have read indicates that these items were present in the oil of some the sludged Toyotas.
  • im_brentwoodim_brentwood Member Posts: 4,883
    Since we're on resale...

    1997 Audi A4 2.8L FWD:

    With 50Kish miles.. That's a $11K++ Car at the auctions. A really nice one will hit $12K and perhaps break that by a few hundred $$s. Make it the much more common Quattro, and that's a $13,500-14,500 car across the block. $7,500 for a nice 1997 A4 with 50K miles? Pearl White? Even if it was a 1.8t 5-speed with cloth and no sunroof its worth more than that, still a $8,500+ car. Maybe Carmax is stealing trades now? I personally don't pay much attention to kbb.com I suppose it could be used as a reference, but what cars are selling for at auction is what I pay attention to as that tells me what other dealers are paying for cars on a wholesale level. So who cares what the book says, I know what I have to pay/can get for one at the sale :)

    1997 328i:

    A clean Automatic with 50K on it is a $16-17K car at the Auctions, NOT a $13K car. Thats what it takes to buy a nice, low-miler. OTOH, Everyone else is selling those for $19Kish.. So I'd love to buy 'em for $13K!

    As all of us in the business have seen, ALG has been WAAYY off the mark before! I can remember sending 2 year old XJ6s downthe road with 3-year residuals,per ALG, of $19K or so for when they had 60-65K miles on them. That was in 1998. I'm buying those today for $13-14K!

    Me? I am also a consultant for TMV...

    Bill
  • im_brentwoodim_brentwood Member Posts: 4,883
    John,

    I just find it interesting that, simply because you recommended your Grandparents buy a Camry, that you seem to be on this mission against Toyotas.

    Has their car sludged? Have you seen a sludged one?

    I'm just not seeing it. What I still think is that these are cars that are just not tolerant of abuse. Maybe Toyota went too far with 7500 mile drain intervals. I think its a combination of slightly lacksidasical maintience combined with engines that, because of what they do (Among other things, Low Emissions, etc..) are naturally hot-running and very precision devices.

    That being said, I always change my oil every 3K miles irrespective. To me it always has been, and always will be, cheap insurance.

    Ramblin, nice cheap shot there... totally untrue. Maybe jealous because you were never, and never will be invited in perhaps?

    Bill
  • armtdmarmtdm Member Posts: 2,057
    If Glycol is leaking into the oil via head gasket problems I believe it will cause engine problems/form of sludge. Now as to fuel contamination, well, a certain amount is normal (in that it cannot be prevented) especially if you drive less then 10 miles or so to heat the enigne up. It is when the fuel as a % of vol in the oil begins to thin out the oil to the point it hinders good lubrication. Not sure but I believe this occurs somewhere between 5-10% of volume. As to dirt. again sllicon appears in three sources in the oil and oil analysis cannot determine the cause. It can come from dirt, silicon seals in the engine and from the oil itself as an additive. Too much silicon in the oil (assuming dirt) obvioulsy is not good and casues premature wear.
  • bobistheoilguybobistheoilguy Member Posts: 270
    armtdm did an excellent job explaining that.


     let me ad that alot of people will pull samples after the damage and will find this, but question is like the chicken and the egg, which came first, the sludged engine causing the damage or the glycol/fuel causing the sludge?


     for more information on oil analysis and what things mean,


    http://theoildrop.server101.com/whatisoilanalysis.htm


    bob

  • golfstergolfster Member Posts: 6
    Noted auto expert Pat Goss of the Motorweek TV program (and other radio and TV shows) recently stated (in his Washington Pest column and on his radio show) that the Toyota engine oil sludge/gel problem is caused by an inadequately designed Positive Crankcase Ventilation (PCV) system.

    Pat says the PCV system should be checked each time the oil is changed and the PCV valve (inexpensive item) should be changed annually.

    By the way, has anyone else noticed how the exhaust pipe on the new Camrys hangs down below the axle? Looks like some kid took "fits-all" parts from JC Whitney and stuck them under the car. Very sloppy and not at all in keeping with what is otherwise a nicely designed car. Toyota makes a very good vehicle (my 85 4X4 SR-5 has 168K miles and runs great) but IMHO, lately they seem to be coming back to the field.
  • canccanc Member Posts: 715
    The Pat Goss comments were discussed about 100 posts back.
  • ramblinonramblinon Member Posts: 80
    not a cheap shot just a casual analytical observation over several months. For what it is worth, the wisdom and truth offered by "most" used car (and new car) sells persons is not the cement of trustworthiness.

    As for never being invited to the "Mt. Club" of the auto/truck sales people in this room, well, let's say I'm not going to lose any sleep.

    John339 has explained his interest in this issue and I find it an honorable one. Caring for the welfare of ones grandparents is considered a duty in most households and his efforts are appreciated. Plus, I find his references to be useful food for thought.

    Brendwoodvolvo, what model of Toyota do you drive that has one of the engines at issue?

    Best regards,

    Ed
  • jj35jj35 Member Posts: 283
    Is the PCV maintenance schedule outlined in the manual? I don't have my manual with me at the moment, but I don't recall it being mentioned until about 60k miles. If I go to Toyota for oil changes, do they check the PCV system/valve each time the oil is changed? Should I question this and make sure that they write it down on the invoice?
  • mjday1972mjday1972 Member Posts: 77
    I've been reading these posts for a few weeks now, trying to see if the 2002s are affected (I recently purchased a 2002 Camry - due to its reputation for reliability). What is the "sludge rate" that Toyota owners are experiencing? I've heard that there have been about 3000 reported incidents thus far. I also read that Toyota said that there were around 3 million of these engines out there. That gives us a "sludge rate" of 0.1% (note the decimal point). If I change my oil every 3000 miles, is this something I need to worry about? I'm thinking not.
  • mcgregermcgreger Member Posts: 40
    I think I posted the same question a while back(maybe on one of the Sienna boards), as I couldn't find any mention of PCV valve maintenance in the manual or in the service write-up when I've taken my van in for oil changes at the dealership. Two months ago I had the 15k service done by the dealership and again no mention of checking or replacing the PCV valve. Any Toyota mechanics out there who could tell us if this is being done at the oil change level or during the extended service interval at the dealership?
  • canccanc Member Posts: 715
    Exactly. You shouldn't have any sludge problems. Enjoy your Camry. :)
  • pjksrpjksr Member Posts: 111
    Service schedule is not in the manual. Change it when you change the air filter, or about 15,000.

    OK, let me have it. You guys don't want to change your oil, now you won't want to change the PCV valve, either. LOL
  • bobistheoilguybobistheoilguy Member Posts: 270
    That I have seen at the toyota dealership engines with a little less than 10,000 miles on them that has been sludged up. If this PVC problem was not a matter of being changed, then the sludge wouldn't occur until after about a year. It would take a long while for this system to create this sludge problem if it was due to not being maintained.

    Now on the other hand, if the Pvc was defective from the gitgo, then this could be a possibility but also, it would be obvious to toyota as a problem since i would think they check all the hydrocarbons and such out the tailpipe before sending out to the dealer.

    From what I have heard, toyota is still looking for the cause of this problem and my thoughts are that the pvc on a brand new engine might contribute since sludge starts to incur then it would cause a higher demand on the pvc system thus cause it to fail.

    I still stand by my findings on oil being sheared by the gear teeth on the heads.

    bob
  • john339john339 Member Posts: 229
    Thanks Golfster for the added comments by Pat Goss. The comments we had to date were from the Mar 20th CBS-WUSA article where he said the following, in case you did not see it:

    =="Automotive expert, Pat Goss, says Toyotas with sludge are not unusual.

    =="We've seen 50 to 60 cars like this and that's an inordinate number of cars," says Goss.

    =="But Toyota places the blame squarely on customer negligence. They say you should change the oil more often. Pat Goss says it's more than that."

    =="Goss says the letter (from Toyota) is demeaning to customers. "

    http://www.wusatv9.com/consumer/consumer_article.asp?storyid=4725
  • Mr_ShiftrightMr_Shiftright Member Posts: 64,481
    I think Pat Goss is merely speculating. He doesn't know any more than I do or any of you do for sure. But he's allowed his two cents as long as it isn't interpreted as gospel.

    I'm not sure either what the resale issue is all about. If the argument is that somehow an Audi defect of 17 years ago is affecting current values, that's pretty slim pickins' for a case, IMO.

    The more I read and hear the more I'm leaning toward this: an oil breakdown caused by multiple simultaneous conditions which vary driver to driver, in terms of driving conditions, maintenance and oil used.

    It seems this is the only possible explanation why two people living next door to each other can apparently have completely different experiences with the same car. It can't be automatically built in to the car itself. So I don't buy the PCV theory on that basis of reasoning.
  • jj35jj35 Member Posts: 283
    It is not a matter of not wanting to change my oil more frequently or not wanting to change out any parts needed as part of normal maintenance. I just need to be told what to do. I appreciate everyone's advice here, but I need to hear that advice from Toyota. Toyota is still saying that if you follow the oil change schedule in your manual (5,000 mi./7,500 mi.) you won't get sludge, but all of the on-line "experts" act like you are an idiot if you don't know any better than to change your oil every 3,000 miles.

    Now I am hearing that you can help prevent sludge if you inspect and replace your PCV. If this isn't in the manual, how I am supposed to know to do this? Is this done as part of routine maintenance when you take your vehicle into service? If it is, should I make sure that the invoice includes this, so later, if my engine does sludge again, I have proof that this system was inspected?
  • jbolltjbollt Member Posts: 736
    This was my point with the cell phone analogy...2 identical phones, in the same family, but with different uses...hence, different "maintenance" needs....I need to clean out lint form the connector "port" occasionally, my wife doesn't...I keep the phone in my pants pocket, my wife's is in her purse.
  • mjday1972mjday1972 Member Posts: 77
    This is way off the subject, but I wanted to thank jbollt for his cell phone analogy. I was having some problems with my palm pilot (which I occasionally keep in my pocket) and didn't even think of checking the contacts on the back. After reading your post above and trying to hot-sync my palm pilot, I checked and cleaned the contacts. Now, it works great! Thanks for the idea!

    Now, to tie it to the engine sludge issue. Perhaps palm should issue an SPA for this occurence? Just kidding.
  • fxashunfxashun Member Posts: 747
    I guess we'll disagree then. But even at $8500 that's not far off trade on a 1997 4 door Civic EX. And there was a much larger difference when new.

    Audi's defect 17 years ago probably has nothing to do with their sorry resale. The myriad defects that they STILL HAVE probably does. Edmunds satisfaction in the high 6's kinda sucks.

    I buy my cars at 100,000+ miles and change the oil every 7500. Never had a problem with burning oil, smoking, contaminated oil, or sludge. I've owned countless Hondas and Toyota alike. It's not insurance to change your oil every 3500 miles...It's wasteful. Unless your car is crap and will sludge up if you don't. It's like admitting you think your car may be garbage and can't trust the owner's manual.
  • Mr_ShiftrightMr_Shiftright Member Posts: 64,481
    Oh, no, Audi does not have a "sorry resale". Why would you think that? Check out these numbers:

    1997 Audi A4 List $28.9K Current retail $13.2K-$14.4K (roughly 50% of MSRP)

    1997 BMW 328 List $36.8 Current retail $14K-17.9K (roughly 50% of value)

    1997 Honda Civic EX List $16.8 Current retail $7-10K (roughly 60% of value)

    1997 Lexus ES 300 List $33K Current retail $17K (roughly 52% of value)

    It's about an average car with an average resale is what all the resale/reliability data seems to indicate. Edmunds rating is based on what people here reported, and being a new feature, may only have polled a handful of people. I think you'll see the 6.9 rating go up and other cars go down.
  • john339john339 Member Posts: 229
    I think the resale value question started with the simple question - will cars that have problems that aren't adequately addressed by the manufacturer suffer in resale value?

    To the extent that the public is aware of the problem, I think the answer is obvious. To what extent resale values will be affected, only history will tell.

    I can honestly say in my case I would be extremely leery about buying or recommending one of these affected models knowing what I know about the problem, watching how the company has reacted to the problem, and seeing how customers were treated in the process.

    I am really curious how owners who had sludge 'cleaned out' from their engines can ever sell their vehicle for full market value. What damage was caused while the sludge was present?
  • cliffy1cliffy1 Member Posts: 3,581
    Since my post from yesterday seemed to get ignored, allow me to re-post it. Pat had three interesting points, one of which was on the PCV. It is the other two that actually caught my attention.

    1. It is his belief that the sludge problem is the fault of owner's lack of maintenance and the manufacturers lack to warnings to maintain the PCV system.

    2. He says this is also a problem with MANY other cars as well, but Toyota is the only one that is backing up the owners of these cars.

    3. He doesn't trust the oil light system on his Mercedes. Against what the manual tells him, he will be changing his oil every 5 to 6K miles. In spite of the Mercedes assurances, he doesn't trust his oil to last 10 to 13K miles.

    All three of these statements were given between 11:30 and 11:50 on WJFK on his weekly radio show

    Note the "MANY other cars" and his belief that owner's manuals should be ignored if one desires long engine life (even on a Mercedes).
  • Mr_ShiftrightMr_Shiftright Member Posts: 64,481
    Yes, I think until all this is solved I would be somewhat cautionary in recommending the cars as well. I wouldn't personally NOT recommend them, but I would certainly mention the obvious need for extra spiffy maintenance on oil changes. Something weird is going on.
  • mjday1972mjday1972 Member Posts: 77
    I read your post and I find it most interesting. It appears to me that Toyota is being "ganged up on" for sludging when there is no actual definitive proof that Toyotas sludge more than any other car out there.

    I found this board after I bought my Camry, and I thought "what have I gotten myself into?" After reading some of these posts, it is clear to me that this has occured in a small percentage of cars - in some cases where the maintenance is suspect. Moral of the story, take care of your car and it will take care of you.
  • dtownfbdtownfb Member Posts: 2,918
    <<<Moral of the story, take care of your car and it will take care of you.>>>

    If this is what you got out of reading all of these posts, then you need to go back and re-read them again. Waht you will find is that most of the people that experienced the sludge problem did in fact follow the manual for maintenance. there is definitely something going on with these engines, 1997-2001. But nobody has been able to isolate the problem since there has been several theories. About the only thing that makes sense is that Toyota did modify the engines in 1997 to meet the LEV emissions standards. The problem is it could be an individual items or it could be the right combination of things (driving habit, failed part, oil change interval, etc.) that causes the sludge problem.

    Either way what is really fueling this is how Toyota has chosen to deal with this, blame the owners. Saying people may have misunderstood or mis-read the manual is sad esp. for a compnay like Toyota. If they had handled this on a case by case scenario, there would be far less negative press on this issue. For example, if someone comes in with this problem and they have the receipts and you know they have visited the shop before, then pay for the work. Even if they have chosen to change their oil at 7500 miles, fix it under warranty and then tell them you should consider a shorter interval for oil changes. Right now Toyota is setting themselves up for a number of problems down the road including a number of lawsuits and a major recall.
  • john339john339 Member Posts: 229
    Here is a link to the PCV system Toyota apparently uses. This Toyota document says there is no scheduled maintenance period for the PCV valve.

    It seems to me that the PCV system, while maybe not the root cause of the Toyota problem, may play a factor in the hastening of Sludge in these particular engines. It is very odd that such very low mileage cars as you described seeing at the Toyota dealer, and has been reported on this board would get this problem through any kind of "normal" gradual build-up of sludge. It is as if these engines build up sludge at a highly accelerated rate, many times greater than other engines.

    Bob, what would cause reduced performance of the PCV valve, and would reduced performance of the PCV valve hasten the formation of sludge?

    http://www.autoshop101.com/forms/h63.pdf
  • hlronhlron Member Posts: 113
    Regarding a bit of the discussion on recommending...and related subjects...I have been approached twice in the last week by people looking at my '01 V-6 FWD Highlander.

    The first time was last week while getting gasoline at a Chevron station...while I was checking my oil, a guy came over to check out my engine; he mentioned he really wanted a Highlander, but it would have to have a third seat, so he thinks he'll up with the van. He mentioned to ME that he had read an article about sludge and the Sienna's, we discussed that this was the same engine, and so forth. He mentioned he would use synth oil, and he re-interated that he sure would like to have a Highlander, and looked at mine some more, etc. Seemed to me he would still be interested in one.

    The second encounter was yesterday...I was at a park, walking my dog, and I see this guy looking under my Highlander, looking at it from different angles, looking inside it...anyway, I approached the guy and showed it to him, and it turns out he was thinking of getting a Highlander. This time I told HIM about the allegations of sludge issues, although I also told him I was not too concerned, since I change my oil a 3k - 4k anyway, and he said he did too. I also told him if something happened to my HL (like someone running into and totaling it) that I would buy another one tomorrow. This gentlemen seemed pretty squared away to me and he is replacing a 20 year old Toyota with 190,000 miles on it...perhaps he may research the issue of sludge, for all I know, now before he buys a new vehicle.

    Bottom line, I still recommend, in my case Highlanders, but in doing so I also put the sludge discussion "on the table" and let people make their own decision regarding the issue.
  • ramblinonramblinon Member Posts: 80
    want to consider checking your oil every day after driving is completed and the car garaged. If you have read all the postings then you are fully aware that many of the "no problem with the engine" crowd in this room find it comical that anybody would consider actually going by the Toyota Manual oil change interval. Many say it is common knowledge that 3000 miles oil and filter changes are really normal. Some say that 3750 miles is OK between changes while others caution that 5000 miles is the maximum. You will have to search long and hard for any "no problem" folks suggesting 7500 mile intervals as per the manual.

    You might also start marking your oil filter in such a manner that you actually know that it has been changed. You should inquire from your Toyota dealership what brand and viscosity of oil they will be putting into your vehicle. Although the oil cap clearly states 5-30 seems that many use 10-30 or some other weight. Of course you will need to actually insure that the dealer actually writes down verbatim what you have brought your vehicle in for and receive a copy of that correctly worded Work Order.

    Now, I know that this may be all new to you but there is a few other points. One of the major issues is that if you ever mark a Survey received from Toyoto as anything other than Excellent then the Service Writer, technician, etc., may not like you any more. This was pointed out by a frequent poster that works for a Toyoto dealership. (I am not quoting here just paraphrasing). The thought here of course is that no Excellent then buyer beware. Very potent stuff.

    Then of course the issue of how Toyota has handled this mess via Customer Non Service and electing to blame it all on the customer. Some say that you can tell the maintenance history of a Toyota by checking for a dirty interior and that may explain whey many refused to actually inspect oil/filter receipts.

    Then there is the recent acknowledgment that one of the frequent "no problem" posters is a consultant to Edmunds. The more one thinks on some of these issues and statements of why Edmunds hasn't pulled the plug on this room require serious attention.

    Good luck with you new Camry and check and change the oil and filter frequently. Also it now seems have the PCV changed frequently.

    Best regards,

    Ed
  • jimmuh1jimmuh1 Member Posts: 72
    Bob: Just so you know, my engine was rebuilt and it was on the verge of throwing a rod. They did not completely replace the engine (as my original invoice states).

    Everyone else: However, in my case my car was just recently repaired under warranty. Don't ask me why (or how) but when I recieved my invoice from the dealership, EVERYTHING was covered. I also recieved a letter from the dealership letting me know that my vehicle recently had warranty work and that Toyota would be sending me a customer survey. Anyone else know of something like this happening? I am grateful that it happened but why did it take six months?

    I'm still not crazy about Toyota, especially with the runaround I've had in the last three weeks. But I have nothing but high praise for the dealership that eventually rebuilt my engine. They kept me in the loop and thanks to them, there was no surprises when the time finally came to get my car.

    Jamie
  • mjday1972mjday1972 Member Posts: 77
    Ramblinon,

    I don't know you very well so it's hard to detect sarcasm but...

    Don't you think it's a stretch to assume that there is a link between a satisfaction survey (which is sent to Toyota Motor Sales, not the dealer) and the service one would receive at a dealership?
  • jimmuh1jimmuh1 Member Posts: 72
    "Then of course the issue of how Toyota has handled this mess via Customer Non Service and electing to blame it all on the customer."

    Truer words have never been spoken.

    Seriously, the existence of a design defect, manufacturing defect, or any other type of problem is really irrelevant to the larger issue. You show me a car manufacturer and I'll show you one type a defect or another. It's just a way of life.

    It's the way the consumer has been handled that really rubs me the wrong way.
  • ramblinonramblinon Member Posts: 80
    Actually I am a light hearted individual who enjoys life to the fullest and have never relied on sarcasm except to amuse. Please scroll back and check out the numerous posts concerning the survey forms sent by Toyota to customers after warranty work (and perhaps other work but I do not know). You should, if you choose, read the explanation given by Cliffy on why one should be very careful in giving anything but an Excellent. As in all written, or verbal, communication one must be alert for the undertow of what is ment. However in the case of the survey it is so clear that no digging is needed. The explanation from a Toyota employee is the truth, yes?

    Just for information, are you connected to Toyota or any other automobile manufacturer, dealer, parts supplier or member of the Mt. Club? Are you a consultant to Edmunds or have relatives or those of special attachment connected thereto or to the prior mentioned entities? What is your real name? (just kidding).

    Oh sludge, see this stuff can get mighty sticky.

    Best regards,

    Ed
  • Mr_ShiftrightMr_Shiftright Member Posts: 64,481
    Why exactly would it matter if someone posting here worked for Edmunds? Don't get the reason why that would bother you. No need to answer if you don't wish, just curious.
  • jj35jj35 Member Posts: 283
    Congrats! Glad you have been able to move on, but your contributions are appreciated, so hope you will still visit :-)

    As happy as I am for you getting your repairs covered under warranty, the inconsistency bothers me. Why was yours a warranty-covered problem and others not? If it happens again, hope you don't have to wait 6 mos. again to get it fixed.
  • rapriderraprider Member Posts: 42
    fwiw, i had read about the engine oil issues about 4-6 weeks ago, when first looking at the highlander...drove one home saturday anyway!

    it's new, it's warranteed, and toyota has my confidence. not that i won't take some of ramblinon's advice and be more diligent about oil/filter care and maintenance than with previous vehicles. better to be safe than sorry, eh?

    if you want to find out about my HL, i'll be on those boards...

    l8r,

    Rap
  • ramblinonramblinon Member Posts: 80
    it is sort of like an employee of Kellogs Cereal not entering into the Space Ring Contest etc. The rationale continues when an employee, or consultant, states that they wonder why this site has not been closed down, if they did say it. It becomes more relevant when that person has been totally anti consumer and 100% Toyota. Do I have my wires crossed or is there a conflict of interest here?

    Of course I might be wrong.

    Best regards,

    Ed
  • john339john339 Member Posts: 229
    My 2 cents on that issue are that you would also have to look at who pays for advertising on Edmunds.

    For example, what if Toyota were a sponsor or advertiser of Edmunds.com, you might think twice about the propriety and credibility of an Edmunds employee 'weighing in' on a Toyota issue. It would sort of undermine what Edmunds is trying have here, a free, fair and open discussion, in my opinion.
  • 210delray210delray Member Posts: 4,721
    just had its 20th oil change, at just under 82K miles. Still no sign of sludge.
  • 210delray210delray Member Posts: 4,721
    Some of you would like to shut this thread down because some of the posters consult for Edmunds? Paranoia has no bounds.

    Speaking of paranoia, does anyone out there really follow Pat Goss' advice? He's always finding some triviality to worry about, like key chains weighing down ignition switches (eventually causing the switches to fail) and mud packing around underbody brake and fuel lines (eventually causing corrosion and leaks).
  • im_brentwoodim_brentwood Member Posts: 4,883
    Talk about Paranoia!

    OK. I am a paid consultant for Edmunds in relation to their Used TMV pricing. And, if it helps, I have never given them a shred of info on Toyotas. They have experts for them. As I own a BMW store, I do BMWs, and as I also wholesale a lot of Jags and Land Rovers, I help with stuff like that. I also give them info on Certification costs (I.E. What the warranties cost so they can hit Certified used cars more accurately.) Before you guys jump on me for this, I do it mainly because the guy who I work with at Edmunds is a hell of a nice guy. Its not for the Money at all. I think that the likelihood of me ever having any type of employment for them in regards to Town Hall is impossible.

    A) I am not exactly on Jonah Brown's A-List. He dont like me very much, and the feeling is relatively mutual but we generally stay out of each other's hair.

    B) I dont have the time.

    That being said...

    Ed, The Mountaintop Club is not made up of Salespeople/Dealers (I am a new car as well as used car dealer). They are in the majority. Its a bunch of highly interesting people who are there by invite. Period. That being said, I wont discuss either of the two above topics further.

    As far as what you think of people in my industry, I agree that there are a lot of sleazes, and also a lot of dedicated and honest people. It depends who you deal with.

    As far as What Toyotas I own, as I have mentioned before, I deal in a large number of used hi-mile Toyotas that I wholesale. Lately its mainly been 97-99 Camry 4 and 6cyls. I have not yet had a sludged one, and in the past 6 months I have been popping Valve covers off of all of them.

    Not a sludged one yet.
    I personally think John is overreacting. Yes, he recommended that his Grandparents buy a Camry. IMHO, its a great car. Not one that I am in love with (Id rather be driving my 356A.. lol..)but a car that has proven to be quite well built. But in my opinion, John, you've seen some reports of sludge on the net that in my opinion can largely be traced back to one or two individuals, and a few that we have seen here on edmunds.com (At least 2 others we know are due to known or unbeknownst neglect, Catgem's Sienna sludged because her independent shop apparently hadnt been changing her oil, I hope she sucessfully sues the pants off of them). So you seem to spend a lot of time searching for anti-Toyota diatribe on the net, meanwhile, you dont seem to pay an awful lot of concern on what may be causing the problem if there even is a problem.

    Here's what I have learned as I sit and based on my experience:

    1) Toyotas arent prone to sludge except in a very small percentage of cases.

    2) At least half of the ones we hear of are due to owner neglect.

    3) Maybe these hi-tech engines DONT tolerate abuse too well. No surprise there.
    We've also seen some great posts regarding possible oil breakdown that have largely gone ignored. This seems to have denegrated into a "Bash Toyota" thread, and to me that is counterproductive. I handle more Toyotas in a Month than even most any salesperson does. So, I have a vested interest here. I'd like to see a definitive, scientific answer that says either:

    A) There IS a real problem. Here's what causes it, here's why, and here's how to fix it. We know this because we did X"

    or...

    B) We cant find a reason. It appears to be owner neglect, which these engines dont take kindly to, and perhaps a few blocks were mis-cast or something.

    Liek I said, I'd really like to get to the bottom of it personally!

    Bill Weismann
  • john339john339 Member Posts: 229
    Well I can't honestly say I understand your complete message. I'm not sure what all the Mountain top references are about, HOWEVER, I am more than surprised that you are on Edmund's payroll!

    I find it a bit disconcerting that someone who is on Edmunds payroll spends a good deal of time bashing users of Edmunds own product.

    I can think of no rational reason why Edmund's paid consultants would spend time bashing users of Edmunds.com and never (until now) even disclose the fact that you are on the payroll.

    I think this does a terrible disservice to Edmunds and to those of us who post here. This makes absolutely no sense whatsoever.

    So I assume that Edmunds Publishing approves of this arrangement?

    p.s. the fact that you so severely undercount the people affected by the sludge (only a couple?) despite mountains of information to the contrary makes me seriously question your/(Edmunds?) motives.

    Sort of makes you wonder what other relationships are not being properly disclosed?
  • im_brentwoodim_brentwood Member Posts: 4,883
    I probably ought not to have opened this can of worms..


    A) I dont believe I am bashing you. If you feel that since I am disagreeing with some of your statements or questioning your reasoning is bashing you, so be it. I refer you to the profile of AOL member "WiseguyXJ6" See the personal quote. I consider this to be debating. Although I also feel that this whole topic has become a bashfest. Both in and amongst TH members, and against Toyota. I also see precious few facts posted, but a whole heck of a lot of opinions and unsubstantiated claims. So call me a cynic.


    Also, I am, shall we say, an independent contractor. I give edmunds some data (As do a whole host of other people) and they pay me for that data. How data related to what I am paying for used Jaguars or what Incentive programs we see from BMW in any way relates to a discussion on Toyotas in a totally separate division of the company is very much beyond me.


    If it helps, they recruited me. And if it also helps, I do not do it for the money... truth be told, they cant afford me :)

    And I also do not logically see how my personal opinions on a totally separate subject in any way reflect upon my abilities to provide them with information. Its like a guy I work with who does some buying for me. In fact, he buys used Toyotas for me in the midwest. It just so happens that he hates foreign cars, he comes from a UAW family. He'd never drive anything but a car made by GM.


    That being said, he does an outstanding job for me. I also have a detailer who works at the BMW store. He happens to hate BMWs. He thinks they are ugly and overpriced. As I have said before, we are all entitled to our opinions. He may not like them, but he does an outstanding job of detailing them.


    I pay Frank to buy Toyotas for me. And I pay Jesus to detail BMWs for me. And they both do their job very well. Edmunds pays me for information, which I provide very well. And that is where the relationship ends. I am not an Employee of edmunds, I am a Vendor TO edmunds.com.


    I also do not get one red cent from the topic I started, Real-World Trade-In Values (WHich at last count is the most prolific in TH).


    This article may give you an idea of my capacity here:


    http://www.edmunds.com/advice/buying/articles/48934/article.html



    Now, show me the "mounds" of evidence. Show me where I "severely discount"the sludge problem. What I have witnessed, since 1998, are about 8 actual reports of sludge. I have, of those, seen the following:

    A) Charlene Blake, who would never post proof that I saw of her oil being changed.

    B) Catgem. I feel terrible for her, but it turns out that it was due to lack of maintience, although she wasnt told this upfront.

    C) gimpyrx. He went 25K between changes. Lexus STILL Paid for his repairs!

    D) Robin Burpee. She seems to have a legitimate beef.

    And a few others who have reported it. I have yet to see a website or any other such site that shows in absolute proof, that a well-maintained Toyota sludged.

    As much as some peoplewith sludge have carried on (Charlene Blake) hw come she never spent 20 minutes putting her proof of the pudding out there for everyone to see?

    If you can point me to a site such as that on the web, I would love to see it. Seriously!

    Perhaps this makes some sense.


    Bill

  • john339john339 Member Posts: 229
    With all respect due a car salesman, you have spent many posts ranting on why I should even care about this problem.

    Who are you to judge my level of concern?

    What can you possibly know about my relationship with my grandparents?

    Why do you even care?

    I have been told by our Edmunds Host here that we are "to address the community". You have certainly spent a good deal of time addressing me directly, which is apparently okay for Edmunds coworkers to do.

    -This issue has been covered in numerous respected national publications and networks, including the Wall Street Journal, Automotive News, Los Angeles Times, CBS, etc.
    -Toyota itself admits to more than 3000 sludge cases, even BEFORE the SPA was released.
    -Toyota limits the problem to a discrete set of engines and model years.
    -Pat Goss has 50+ cases in his own shop.
    -The Toyota Dealer Council itself raised the issue 3 years ago.
    -People on this board have described their engines failing on the freeway, engines being replaced, winning arbitration cases against Toyota, Toyota regional reps refusing to look at receipts because the "only" cause of sludge is neglect (which has proven to be an inaccurate satement).
    -CarMax issues warning to look for sludged Toyotas.
    -The NHTSA database is full of sludged Sienna, Lexus, Camrys yet surprisingly empty of Accords, Taurus, etc.
    -Service Managers strongly recommend 3000 mile oil change intervals instead of 7500 (why?)
    - A Toyota dealer puts synthetic oil in engines at THEIR own cost (why?)

    And you urge me to ignore this and just look the other way? I think not.
  • catgemcatgem Member Posts: 246
    will never happen...IF, in fact, for the first time in more than 10 years of going there, my guys at Texaco DID failed to change my oil and /or filter, it is VERY odd that in over 7 months, including arbitration statements, this never came out!! My chance to file a suit is gone...either way, Toyota cost me. As far as suing the pants off anyone, I have no desire to do that...got my $$$ back.. As far as the grief I suffered? Life is full of it, and I would rather have this than a medical mistake, wouldn't you???
    I had my car gone over today by my mechanic, and he thinks it is fine....so I do plan to hang on to it...it is way depreciated now, anyway.... Shifty, thanks for explaining extended warranty. I have decided not to get one. Will go to Toy for all big stuff, warranty work. My local guy will do tires, windshield wipers, tire pressure etc.
  • armtdmarmtdm Member Posts: 2,057
    Picked up a part at local Toyota dealer yesterday and decided to interview the service manager and a few reps on the sludge issue. (one of two dealers in Ric, VA). They stated that they have seen 5-6 sludged engines in past couple of years. They stated that in all cases the owner did not have receipts for 7500 mile oil changes.

    So, dealers remain consistent in the statements that minimal changes and or records are being maintained in the majority of all sludge cases. We may never know the cause but Bob's theory with the oil sounds as good as any out there. Oh, dealer also stated they have heard nothing of changes to owner's manual on intervals but they ahve always recommended 3750 mile changes even as far back as my 92 model.

    Interesting, one post above stated they had just done their 20th oil change at 82,000 miles I just did my 21st at 143,000. Synthetic though.
Sign In or Register to comment.

Helpful Tools

Most popular vehicles