I agree that June 11th seems alittle quick for 04's to be on the lot. I don't know if that was a typo or if that means that 04's will be on the lots here in Michigan, I don't know.
I know it's a year away but any guesses on how quick a CTS with the 3.6 and the 6 speed manual will be? As wonderful as that sounds, I don't think I can wait that long. It looks like an 04 with the 3.6 will likely be a top contender for me.
Can't figure out how the CTS jumped to 3694 lbs. '03 CTS with 5 speed was 3500lbs. '03 CTS with auto was 3570 lbs. Where did the other 120 lbs come from?
I'm not sure either where the 150 lb penalty is coming from either. The engine has to be partly responsible since it's the most obvious new part. The transmission isn't much different. Interior bits should be within ear shot of the earlier car. Maybe they count the sport version bits in the final weight tally now. I'm sure that the Stabilitrak system and load leveling gear have to weigh something.
That is why I was careful to note a broken in car. One with 5,000 or more mile on it. All of the Maruaders that were tested in the mags last year were brand new cars. The ones that had some miles on them always do 0-60 in under 7 secs. Just saw on Mercurymarauder.net that the average RearWheelHP on the Marauder's is about 235 hp. An over 20% loss. I expect that CTS's drivetrain to be more efficient and use up less hp. Even if the CTS's pulls only 210 hp on the chassis dyno. It will be quicker than the Marauder because it weighs over 600 lbs less!
Quote in todays Syracuse NY paper from Jim Taylor, vehicle line exec. for the V series:
"To differentiate the Cadillac CTS with the 3.6-255 hp or 3.2-220 hp V6s from the V-series coming out this spring with a 5.7 liter, 400 hp V-8 the V series will feature a mesh grille, suede leather inserts to keep folks in place during high performance driving."
Doesn't say anything about the other goodies that go with the V tho..............
I'm still sticking with 6.3 to 6.5 for the new engine. Remember, the current one does it in 6.9 with only 220 hp and about the same amount of torque. The Chrysler 300M comparison is a joke as I've maintained the horses in both the Intrepid's 3.2 and the 300M's 3.5 are mules since they came out in 1998. Both cars should be faster than they are considering their curb weights and power output.
Please note that final-drive gear ratios, in and of themselves, don't say much when no car ever gets into a 1:1 transmission gear by 60mph (and many cars these days don't even have a 1:1 gear in the transmission.)
What you'd need to make a meaningful comparison on that basis is the effective overall gear ratio in each gear, the loaded rolling radius of each vehicle's drive wheel/tire combination, transmission torque converter stall speed, and the area under the torque curve (really torque output every 1000RPM from idle to redline.)
Specifically, how much of the duration of the run is spent at or near the engine's peak torque output.
Yeah, I know, pretty soon I'll be asking for the rotating mass of the vehicle's drive wheel/tire/brake rotor/hub combination...
That was my point in emphasizing the fact that the CTS had a 5 speed auto and the other car's I was comparing it to only had 4 speeds.
Clearly the first gear on the 5 speed will be as low or lower than the 1st gear on the 4 speed and I know that 2nd gear will be lower than 2nd on the 4 speed.
Thus the CTS will have lower overall gearing where it needs it. Final drive X trans ratio will be more advantageous(numerically higher)in the CTS.
The Marauder does have a 3.55 ratio but it is running a taller tire.
We should get the gear ratios for the 5L50E and the ratios for the 4T65E and compare.
Also this was my main complaint with the Intrigue, it would pull like a bear up to redline in 1st then shift into second, dropping the engine out of it's torque band and messing up the 0-60 time. A 5 speed with closer ratios would have solved this issue.
I checked out the 04 pricing at kbb.com. If they are accurate then it looks like the price increase will be modest. It also appears that XM can be had as a stand alone option and does not require the Bose system, Navi system, or even one of the packages. It also appears the sport components of the luxury-sport package can now be had without the luxury part of it. Me, I'd pretty much be happy with the base model with XM radio as the only option. I hope the "blue chip" color is similar to the blue which is on the 03 model.
If an 03 auto is closer to 8 seconds and the manual is 6.9 than the 3.6 engine auto should be close to an 03 manual I will stick to 6.9 . bolt a 6 spd to that 3.6 and now you will be in the low sixes
Thanks for the link. I have been on it before but forgotten where I found it.
I will use the transmission in the Intrigue to compare it with. The Intrigue is used because it is(was) GM's only other DOHC offering in a mid size vehicle.
In fact, 3rd gear on the CTS is almost identical to 2nd gear on the Intrigue. That means the CTS has 2 much lower gears than the Intrigue. For the older gearheads in the audience, you would have to take the 3.29 gear out of the Intrigue and replace it with a 4.05 gear to get the torque multiplication that is offered by the 5 speed auto in the CTS. The CTS with the new engine should jump off the line and be much more sprightly around town.
All we need is tire height and we can figure it out. Evidently it will hold a gear to 6700 rpms with the new motor. So it will probably not require a shift to third.
I'll give it a go. My math is rusty but let's see. 225/50R-17 225 divided by 25.4mm = 8.86" Since this a 50 series tire I don't need to halve it and multiply it by the aspect ratio(50%). So 17" + 8.86" = 25.86" tall tire.
Okay, I just got back from doing an Open House so I haven't had an opportunity to do the math.
I am going to take the easy route on this: My '87 Camaro has the same height tires as the CTS and the same rear gear. It does 5500 rpms @ 60 mph in second gear. The CTS has a 14% shorter 2nd gear so it will be doing 5500 rpms X 114% or 6270 rpms. Shifts are at 6700 rpms so it will still be in second gear. I have a feeling that GM planned it his way. Another shift would hurt 0-60 times by almos .5 seconds. Should be a peppy car.
If 60 MPH can come up in second gear then the 0 -60 times should be excellent !!! Now imagine 0-60 time with a lightning quick shifting times of a "SMG" type manual transmission . The CTS needs an optional "SMG " transmission. maybe for '05
Volant makes the CAI in the Lund CTS. No one at Lund nor Volant responded to inquiries about making it available to the general public.
Took the CTS to a Porsche Club of America Rally Saturday. Several boo-boos in the route instructions hosed everybody so the results were meaningless. Since it was my first I really didn't care. I just wanted the opportunity to push the CTS. The course was in the foothills east of Stockton, CA. It ran from fairly open 55 mph county roads in flatter sections, to narrow, twisty rollercoaster sections with off-camber hairpins and no shoulders. WHAT A BLAST! That CTS is just superb. Responsive and predictable. Never got out of shape. Stabilitrak only kicked in once. The algorithm in the 5L40E did everything right. Smooth normal patterns until the more aggressive ones were called on. The bonus is the Average MPH available in the DIC. Makes rally math a breeze. Oh, what was I up against? A Carrera, a 911, a 968, a couple of 944's, several Boxsters and two WRX's.
Are you sure it is an automated Manual transmission . It seems like everybody is rushing to come out with shifting paddles for the steering wheel but those paddles are controlling an automatic transmission
Here is a video from a local news station in Lansing, Michigan about the new 2004 Cadillac CTS. When you open the link, click on the 1st search item "Cadillac CTS Gets Facelife" which has a red film camera next to it, denoting it is a video.
That was my post and it seems to work. The bugs in my shifting went away and the Sport Mode will "stick" now. It used to go away after two drives. A knowledgeable salesman at my Dealership told me about this.
Here's the procedure to tell your car's computer that you want to have the car "re-learn" your driving pattern. By the way, for SAFETY sake only do this while driving in an open area. I did it while driving at about 30 mph. You can do this at higher speeds too, like on a Freeway or open highway. Floor the gas pedal briefly to the floor. Let it off. After 3-5 seconds, floor it again, and immediately let it off. For the next 200 miles your car's computer will relearn your driving pattern. I think my car "learned" a bunch of bad habits before I took delivery on it. It had 70 miles on the odometer, and once I got it I tended to baby it too much. This car loves to be driven hard. Good luck!! -Jerry:>)
I just purchased a base model CTS with auto transmission. I love the car and how it handles. But I have a question. It seems to have developed a whine around 40 mph; minimal up to 30 and increases up around 40 and then decreases at 50 and above (or I can't hear thereafter). It appears and remains when the car is under light throttle just maintaining constant speed. When throttle is released, the whine disappears, and returns when throttle is reapplied. I am thinking it is the differential and not the transmission, but not sure. I have not taken it into the dealer yet. I first noticed it around 700 miles and now at 900+ it is really getting quite noticable. Anybody had a similar condition? I believe I will let it get a bit worse before I take it in in case they disbelieve me.
Thanks for the info on the transmission. Have to give it a try this week.
My CTS also has the whine around 40 and does exactly the same thing as described in post 3355. Interesting to find out if any others have this problem. We thought it was the exhaust. Any ideas?
My LuxSport with the auto and almost 7K miles has no whine. What you describe could come from a number a places in the drive train. If I was absolutely sure I'd isolated all non-drive train sources (fans, radio/tape player, wind noise, tire noise, etc.) without result, and the tranny and differential had their proper levels of lube, I'd start at the differential setup. Not sure about these new fangled setups, but in the bad old days if you didn't set the preload on the pinion gear to spec you'd get bad noises and eventually a lot worse.
Sometimes though noises are noises and no two cars will feel and sound exactly alike. I never liked the sound my 95 Seville made. Service manager explained it was the chain used in the FWD tranny. The tranny operated fine, never broke, but the sound bugged.
You guys probably have what is called a "pitch point" whine. My Camaro has done this since it had 40,000 miles on it. It now has 205,000 miles. Mine is at it's loudest at 47 mph. But makes the noise between about 43-52 mph. Taking your foot off the gas makes it go away. What is happening is that the gears are cutting a little too deeply. I change the differential gear lub every 15,000 miles (limited slip). The technicians says that most of them do this but not to worry too much. My car has the BW Australian sourced 9 bolt differentital. If it were me I would definitely get it fixed quickly because it will only get worse. Hope this helps.
How do you install your cell phone? Is there cell phone pre-wiring in the car for the microphone/speakers or any radio attachments (so it mutes your radio when you get a call)? Does the CTS have any of this? How/where have you mounted your phone cradles? Is there any integration into the steering wheel controls? Who does the install? Is there a package that you have to get in order to get these features?
I know the car has Onstar, but that is crap. I dont want to pay for another service when I already have a perfectly good cell phone.
The $1700 option for the new 3.6 includes the 5 speed automatic. I have had this confirmed by a CTS manager. So basically the new engine costs $500 - good deal.
If I left off the Xenon and the folding rear seat it would be: Invoice $31,613 MSRP $34,410 With the $300 SC sales tax that would put it at $32,000, which is doable for me.
I may wait until August or September to order in hopes of special financing.
It does seem that the car has gotten more expensive. 35K gets you the lux and the sport this year. In '04 you get a base car with performance upgrades.
I was a little confused about the options list as configured on kbb.com. The "LuxSport" option is now 10 grand, but it also includes all the major options of the car, like the moonroof, the xenon lamps, heated seats, etc. This options group is *exactly* like what I ended up ordering for my 2003 CTS.
However, the Sport option can be configured with the base car. And the Lux option is still around.
So I think what's going on is that Cadillac looked at how most customers ordered their cars, the feedback they got from people who wanted alternatives, and came up with the current ordering process. There were people like me who ordered virtually everything (a small number). There were at (probably) 50% of the buyers who ordered the base car, but if they had a chance would have ordered the Sport bits without the Lux bits.
When Edmunds and GMBuypower's websites update, I suspect that this is what will be the case. I'm still not sure if the options list will be as "a la carte" as people would like.
Comments
The car is 3700 lbs and has an automatic. The 300M Chrysler had 253hp and look at the slug that was. That car never did better than 7.7 seconds.
'03 CTS with 5 speed was 3500lbs.
'03 CTS with auto was 3570 lbs.
Where did the other 120 lbs come from?
300M not a good comparision due to inefficient transmission.
Power to weight comparisons:
Olds Intrigue 215 hp 3.29 gear 3422 lbs
power to weight = 15.91 lbs per hp.
0-60 7.7 secs.
'04 CTS 255hp? 3.45 gear 3694 lbs?.
power to weight = 14.48 lbs per hp.
0-60? got to be under 7 secs.
CTS has 40 more hp and 37 more lbs ft torque than intrigue.
Deeper overall gearing, closer gearing and more torque available at the low end.
Another comparison is the Mercury Marauder.
4300 lbs 300 hp 3.55 gear power toweight ratio of 14.33 lbs per hp.
Once these engines get broken in Marauders are in the mid to high 6's.
Power to weight ratios are almost identical, 14.33 vs. 14.48 lbs per hp.
CTS has 5 speed auto.
I will guarantee you that the CTS will pull better 0-60 times than the Marauder.
One with 5,000 or more mile on it.
All of the Maruaders that were tested in the mags last year were brand new cars.
The ones that had some miles on them always do 0-60 in under 7 secs.
Just saw on Mercurymarauder.net that the average RearWheelHP on the Marauder's is about 235 hp.
An over 20% loss.
I expect that CTS's drivetrain to be more efficient and use up less hp.
Even if the CTS's pulls only 210 hp on the chassis dyno.
It will be quicker than the Marauder because it weighs over 600 lbs less!
"To differentiate the Cadillac CTS with the 3.6-255 hp or 3.2-220 hp V6s from the V-series coming out this spring with a 5.7 liter, 400 hp V-8 the V series will feature a mesh grille, suede leather inserts to keep folks in place during high performance driving."
Doesn't say anything about the other goodies that go with the V tho..............
http://www.syracuse.com
What you'd need to make a meaningful comparison on that basis is the effective overall gear ratio in each gear, the loaded rolling radius of each vehicle's drive wheel/tire combination, transmission torque converter stall speed, and the area under the torque curve (really torque output every 1000RPM from idle to redline.)
Specifically, how much of the duration of the run is spent at or near the engine's peak torque output.
Yeah, I know, pretty soon I'll be asking for the rotating mass of the vehicle's drive wheel/tire/brake rotor/hub combination...
Clearly the first gear on the 5 speed will be as low or lower than the 1st gear on the 4 speed and I know that 2nd gear will be lower than 2nd on the 4 speed.
Thus the CTS will have lower overall gearing where it needs it. Final drive X trans ratio will be more advantageous(numerically higher)in the CTS.
The Marauder does have a 3.55 ratio but it is running a taller tire.
We should get the gear ratios for the 5L50E and the ratios for the 4T65E and compare.
Also this was my main complaint with the Intrigue, it would pull like a bear up to redline in 1st then shift into second, dropping the engine out of it's torque band and messing up the 0-60 time.
A 5 speed with closer ratios would have solved this issue.
Is there an option for the "normal CTS grill and front end" on the CTS-V?
Just kidding. The V8 sound would give me away.
Rich
I will use the transmission in the Intrigue to compare it with.
The Intrigue is used because it is(was) GM's only other DOHC offering
in a mid size vehicle.
Here is the data on the 5L40E vs. the 4T65E
4t65E w 3.29 gear //////////////// 5L40E w 3.45 gear
1st = 2.92 overall = 9.61 ///// 1st = 3.42 overall = 11.80
2nd = 1.57 overall = 5.17 ///// 2nd = 2.21 overall = 7.62
3rd = 1.00 overall = 3.29 ///// 3rd = 1.60 overall = 5.52
4th = .70 overall = 2.30 ///// 4th = 1.00 overall = 3.45
///5th = .75 final = 2.59
5L40E has a huge torque multiplication advantage over GM's FWD transmission as offered in the Intrigue.
1st = 23% increase!
2nd = 47% increase!
3rd = 67% increase!
In fact, 3rd gear on the CTS is almost identical to 2nd gear on the Intrigue.
That means the CTS has 2 much lower gears than the Intrigue.
For the older gearheads in the audience, you would have to take the 3.29 gear out of the Intrigue and replace it with a 4.05 gear to get the torque multiplication that is offered by the 5 speed auto in the CTS.
The CTS with the new engine should jump off the line and be much more sprightly around town.
That could effect instrumented 0 - 60 times - while still providing excellent actual acceleration.
Cheers,
- Ray
Looking forward to a test drive . . .
Evidently it will hold a gear to 6700 rpms with the new motor.
So it will probably not require a shift to third.
225/50R-17
225 divided by 25.4mm = 8.86"
Since this a 50 series tire I don't need to halve it and multiply it by the aspect ratio(50%).
So 17" + 8.86" = 25.86" tall tire.
I am going to take the easy route on this:
My '87 Camaro has the same height tires as the CTS and the same rear gear. It does 5500 rpms @ 60 mph in second gear.
The CTS has a 14% shorter 2nd gear so it will be doing 5500 rpms X 114% or 6270 rpms.
Shifts are at 6700 rpms so it will still be in second gear.
I have a feeling that GM planned it his way.
Another shift would hurt 0-60 times by almos .5 seconds.
Should be a peppy car.
Took the CTS to a Porsche Club of America Rally Saturday. Several boo-boos in the route instructions hosed everybody so the results were meaningless. Since it was my first I really didn't care. I just wanted the opportunity to push the CTS. The course was in the foothills east of Stockton, CA. It ran from fairly open 55 mph county roads in flatter sections, to narrow, twisty rollercoaster sections with off-camber hairpins and no shoulders. WHAT A BLAST! That CTS is just superb. Responsive and predictable. Never got out of shape. Stabilitrak only kicked in once. The algorithm in the 5L40E did everything right. Smooth normal patterns until the more aggressive ones were called on. The bonus is the Average MPH available in the DIC. Makes rally math a breeze. Oh, what was I up against? A Carrera, a 911, a 968, a couple of 944's, several Boxsters and two WRX's.
I'd love to get a detailed explanation of how transmission and computer do what they do. I think I read somewhere it uses seven different patterns.
Any factory techs lurking out there with non-confidential data to share?
http://www.thecarconnection.com/index.asp?article=6071&sid=18- 3&n=157
http://www.wlns.com/Global/SearchResults.asp?qu=Cadillac+CTS
shifter dealy.
Here's the procedure to tell your car's computer that you want to have the car "re-learn" your driving pattern. By the way, for SAFETY sake only do this while driving in an open area. I did it while driving at about 30 mph. You can do this at higher speeds too, like on a Freeway or open highway. Floor the gas pedal briefly to the floor. Let it off. After 3-5 seconds, floor it again, and immediately let it off. For the next 200 miles your car's computer will relearn your driving pattern. I think my car "learned" a bunch of bad habits before I took delivery on it. It had 70 miles on the odometer, and once I got it I tended to baby it too much. This car loves to be driven hard. Good luck!! -Jerry:>)
My CTS also has the whine around 40 and does exactly the same thing as described in post 3355. Interesting to find out if any others have this problem. We thought it was the exhaust. Any ideas?
Sometimes though noises are noises and no two cars will feel and sound exactly alike. I never liked the sound my 95 Seville made. Service manager explained it was the chain used in the FWD tranny. The tranny operated fine, never broke, but the sound bugged.
My Camaro has done this since it had 40,000 miles on it. It now has 205,000 miles.
Mine is at it's loudest at 47 mph.
But makes the noise between about 43-52 mph.
Taking your foot off the gas makes it go away.
What is happening is that the gears are cutting a little too deeply.
I change the differential gear lub every 15,000 miles (limited slip).
The technicians says that most of them do this but not to worry too much. My car has the BW Australian sourced 9 bolt differentital.
If it were me I would definitely get it fixed quickly because it will only get worse.
Hope this helps.
How do you install your cell phone?
Is there cell phone pre-wiring in the car for the microphone/speakers or any radio attachments (so it mutes your radio when you get a call)?
Does the CTS have any of this?
How/where have you mounted your phone cradles?
Is there any integration into the steering wheel controls?
Who does the install?
Is there a package that you have to get in order to get these features?
I know the car has Onstar, but that is crap. I dont want to pay for another service when I already have a perfectly good cell phone.
Thanks,
Reed
So, is the lux sport pkg worth the $10,000 it costs?
Since the 3.2L is not available with the auto?
certain speeds.....esp. at loud volume and CD playing.............
LY7 VVT 3.6L $1,700
PDX Sport Package $1,875
TT6 Xenon Headlamps $645
AM9 Split Folding Rear Seat $450
Invoice $32,544 MSRP $35,505
If I left off the Xenon and the folding rear seat it would be:
Invoice $31,613 MSRP $34,410
With the $300 SC sales tax that would put it at $32,000,
which is doable for me.
I may wait until August or September to order in hopes of special financing.
It does seem that the car has gotten more expensive. 35K gets you the lux and the sport this year. In '04 you get a base car with performance upgrades.
However, the Sport option can be configured with the base car. And the Lux option is still around.
So I think what's going on is that Cadillac looked at how most customers ordered their cars, the feedback they got from people who wanted alternatives, and came up with the current ordering process. There were people like me who ordered virtually everything (a small number). There were at (probably) 50% of the buyers who ordered the base car, but if they had a chance would have ordered the Sport bits without the Lux bits.
When Edmunds and GMBuypower's websites update, I suspect that this is what will be the case. I'm still not sure if the options list will be as "a la carte" as people would like.