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Also here on the 'Great battery debate' thread has useful references if you can get through the fears and naysayers.
I read so much stuff that the sources can blend together in my mind but that article in particular is a great read.
That article also has a picture of the gear assembly that blends both the electric and ICE (internal combustion engine) power. It is quite a blend of engineering. Also in that article is a San Jose professor that has made a hybrid that will go 0 to 60 in 4.3 seconds. His batteries cost ten grand, last only four years and the car will be 250K. He wants to go into production and sell about twenty of them.
And the Volta's 408-hp Hybrid Synergy Drive® (a 3.3-liter V6 with an electric motor for each axle) not only delivers 435 miles on a 13.7-gallon tank, but 0-60 acceleration in a mere four seconds.
It's a concept car built in Italy with
Toyota's HSD technology.
The "midlife crisis sports car" for Generation Xers in 2012 - The Alessandro Volta !!!
( the oldest Generation Xers will turn 47 in 2012 )
PS
I think this belongs in "future hybrids" forum - I'm moving my post...
New reader here. I have a question about the "B" on the drive shift. The salesmen said it would allow me to drive on Battery only. I can see myself running to the store and setting it to B only to save gas? Is there any truth to this and can I just run on Battery until it is dead and then use gas to charge it again?
thanks
Kevin
The manual has more to say about this.
Any true stories out there?
When I got my Prius last Nov I drove normally on the 3rd tank and when the warning came I continued in order to get to my regular station about 30 mi away. Well I didnt make it and got a 'triangle of death event'.
Essentially what happened was that the computer shut down the ICE and it looked like a Times Square Billboard upfront. I was able to do a U-turn and drive a mile back to a closed station driving only in EV mode at a reduced output.
In reading about this on priuschat I found it occurs often! if a driver pushes the envelope as I do. Moral: When the vehicle says it's hungry feed it NOW. Driving just on battery without the ICE there to keep the SoC maintained could severely damage the Ni-Metal-Hydride battery.
Figure a mile at best in an emergency.
Toyota's short answer: Never
My long answer: probably never, but you never know. How often do you have to change the automatic transmission on a car? I do know a few people who have needed to replace their transmissions. But then again, I know A LOT more people who never had to touch them.
Just curious... where did you hear you had to change the hybrid battery from?
a friend of mine ask: so how often you have to change battery?
and then... i just went... Huh?! O_o ... jaw-dropped...
The hybrid batteries are covered under warranty for 100K miles. They are hidden under the car around the trunk and third bench. They are designed to run for the life of the car.
There is a little 12V under the hood, that is not the hybrid battery pack. I can see changing that little 12V thing a couple of times over 100,000 miles like any car battery.
The Prius has been out since 1998, there have been no reported hybird battery pack problems. The HH just came out last June, so it is too soon to tell. May be when someone hits 100,000 miles on an HH?
No, we did not laugh. We respect him and he has been a long time friend, he just had not done any reasearch on hybrid and had no idea. So we were happy to talk him through it. He just traded his Tahoe for a Camry last year and is looking at trading that for the Hybrid Camry.
I had to explain that there is Lead-Acid and then there is NiMH. The hybrid battery pack in the HH currently uses NiMH. NiMH is popular in AA batteries for digital camera and flashlights and other everyday devices. They are rechargeable and last quite a long time, about 850+ recharge cycles in its AA form if people would take care of them properly.
As in all rechargeable batteries, including normal Lead-Acid, they will lose charge over time, it is a matter of how long and under what condition but that has nothing to do with a battery going bad and needing replacement.
So he now understands that the hybrid pack is not the same as a bunch of lead-acid batteries wired togeher under the hood.
On another website Toyota mentioned that they had stopped benchtesting the batteries at 175,000 miles when no deterioration in performance of any kind was noted.
On my Prius I'm expecting 250,000 miles ( 15000 mi in 5 months thus far ).
By doing your own research, like you are now, you can go to Toyota's website or the website of the Georgetown plant or any number of hybrid vehicle websites on the net and read and research.
The long and short of it... the batteries should never have to be replaced, they should last the life of the vehicle. There are those who are afraid of the dark and of falling off the edge of the earth who worry 'Yeah but what if...?'.
Well maybe for these nervous nellies the tried and true is the route to take. I'll take Toyota's word at face value that they will last the life of the vehicle which is about 250,000 mile or more. That's what I'm planning for my Prius.
I think Toyota is thinking more of 150,000 miles as a max. Not that the batteries will fall apart at 151K or anything, but what I have read indicates that 159K is their nominal "lifetime".
In any case the warranty on the batteries runs out at either 100K or 150K.
If they were really sure they would never wear out they would issue a "lifetime" guarantee, that lasted for the original owner of the hybrid. They do not give an exact number for "lifetime", which indicates to me that they don't know how long they should last.
I am certain the Courts have quantified "lifetime" not as in the Owners life, but as the generally excepted, more general term. Which in the case of automobiles is in the 100-150,000 mile range.
As has been posted hundreds of times in these forums, if you are really looking to save $, don't buy a Hybrid! If you are looking to make a statement, and do something good for the planet and all living things, buy one. Given their higher price, you might come out even, maybe 10% ahead in gas savings at current prices, but it won't be as significant as many will lead you to believe without coasting, never running the AC, never driving faster than 55.
Battery life is very much dependent upon average temperatures where you live, how often you drive, and for how long, not just miles. Also how many accessories are being used, etc.
Of course Toyota also takes into consideration that 90% of automobile owners are ready for a new car way before they hit 100K in mileage. This forum is not a good indicator of how most people really drive, and how long they keep a car.
Can you cite a court case?
http://www.hybridcars.com/blogs/taxi/batteries
We keep our cars for as long as they last and then sell them or junk them or trade them in for peanuts. Our record is 194K miles.
I really think all the focus on battery, while valid initially, is fast becoming just an excuse by the ill-informed. I am not referring to the posters here . I am referring to several people (family, strangers, friends) who stopped to talk to us and asked questions and then claimed that battery will give out in 30K miles. Where did they get that silly piece of useless garbage info???
Years ago, the Big Three, and the oil companies, put out lots of false rumors, technical information, because they feared change.
Takes many decades to undo what people accepted as fact. In most everything, not just cars.
This is incorrect, unless you drive constantly in the extremes of the Sahara or the northern reaches of Canada all the time. For 99+% of the current and prospective owners one should expect somewhere between 200,000 and 300,000 miles. But realistically who besides me is going to keep their vehicle that long? And at 200+K miles what is the value of any vehicle? I know what it is $200 - $1200.
With very few exceptions all vehicles are wasting assets that have no value at the end of their lives. I expect this and plan around it in the 200-250K mile range.
As for constantly driving in extremes, I have no idea where you live, but in California, within a 100 mile radius, one can easily go from 75*F at the beach, drive one hour or so and be in 120*F in Palm Springs, and finish the day by overnighting in the mountains where it will fall to 30*F or less that night. I was speaking of batteries in general, including the accessory battery.
The technology of Toyota's NiMH system in the HSD is entirely different than anything we normally experience. On Toyota's website and in their printed material they specifically state that after concluding their own benchtesting at 180,000 miles they recorded no deterioration at all in the performance of the batteries.
Therefore their statement to the public is that with normal care the batteries should last the life of the vehicle which is 20% longer than the longest warranty. Real world data over 6 years in the States seems to confirm all of this.
Toyota makes the systems and backs them. I'll go with their data over the German ( competitor's? ) opinion.
The accessory battery is a lead acid battery as in all vehicles and it should last a similar lifetime to other lead acid batteries.
Perhaps I wasn't clear enough, but then I did just above say I was speaking of the accessory battery, and I hope you agree they are very dependent upon temp and age.
Have fun.
Kdhspyder has been around here for a long while and has provided quite a bit of good semi-inside Toyota info for all of us. I do not think he is picking on anyone, he most likely shares your frustration about the misconception many have about the HH NiMh batteries.
Khd, terry, a whole ton of HH owners here all have good understanding of how long the NiMh batteries will last. I do not see an argument here.
Cheers guys!
I learned my lesson for good, when I did that in a VW Beatle, years ago, and walked 3 miles to a station, in the rain.
Since then, I have never let the tank get below 1/4 and usually never much below half. My Dad was positively anal about gas levels, and when it happened to me, getting stuck, he positively gloated, and told me he learned his lesson just as I did.
Well.... that depends.
Some manufacturers include routine service during the warranty; in that case it's a no brainer. To me, a reliable, competent local is great to have... as long as you maintain good records. If the routine stuff is documented, manufacturers have to honor claims under warranty. I'd reserve the dealer for things that look complicated - electronics etc. In addition, your indie shop usually has a good sense of what is beyond them, or what makes better sense for you to go to a dealer for.
My 2 cents.
Whoever you use, if *NOT* a Toyota dealer, please do make sure they know how to service a Hybrid.
While they do not directly deal with the HSD system, they can indirectly impact the HSD performance. For example, if they have to disconnect the 12V battery, they need to know how to reset some on-board functions. Nothing complicated but they should know else your ICE can run longer than usual and gas mileage may suffer for a few hundred miles. The shop also needs Toyota software and reader that can decode HSD system status. The standard one (forgot its name, OBD II or III ???) will work to show standard status but can do nothing about HSD specific data.
Finally, our local tire shop guy thought our HH had "died" because he could not figure out why the engine would start so much later after he turned the key. This made me really wary of using anyone not trained by Toyota.
Good luck!
I don't rotate the tires because I change from regular to snow tires in the spring and fall.
I do check the tire pressure (38/36) regularly and do bring the car in to Toyota promptly for every TSB or recall.
We got a 2007 HH a year ago and are following the same discipline. There have been no TSBs. or recalls that I know of.
Leaving for Phoenix Friday to pick up a low-mileage 2006 HH from a non-Toyota dealership and will be paying Toyota for an inspection before forking over $$$ to seller. Am looking for all items of concern at which I can aim the mechanics. Thanks. Chuck
My questions are:
1)Could this all be caused by the regular battery under the hood being bad?
2) Should we take that in some where to get checked out to see if it's good?
3) Does it sound like it's the hybrid battery that is bad since that is the icon that is showing up on the dashboard?
4) What would have caused either of the batteries to go bad in the 5 weeks it sat in the garage?
5) If the regular battery went bad, for whatever reason, would that cause the hybrid battery to malfunction as well?
Thank you for any help you can give.
Appreciate you taking the time to let me know "I'm not alone!"
When I put the key in, all of the dash lights turn on, but when I try to turn the key over, it says "put in park"-- it IS in park. I noticed that I left a door open last night (oops) and there was a dome light on because of it. After two attempts to turn the car over, there are NO dash lights and the car is non-responsive.
Is this a tow to the dealer problem or wait and it will fix itself or get it jumped and it will fix itself or get a charger on it for a few hours kind of thing???? I would Love some help here.
Thank you soooo much.
...I suspect however that the battery pack potency has diminished.
The dealer's test are a complete black box, red-light/green light test which apparently even they don't know what determines the result of the test.
...so what I am hoping maybe one of you all can help me figure out, is...
Is it possible to determine how well the battery is holding a charge and how much power it is delivering in comparison to its original (or replacement) specs?
Also, if the battery is some significant percent less capable that it was originally, is there a way to get Toyota to honor the warranty and replace it?
And finally, what is the path for replacing the batteries if Toyota won't acknowledge their diminished state?
I am not familiar with the black box go/no go test you refer. Did you actually see the test performed? I do know the service centers will measure the voltage of the battery back to assist in determining the condition. If the voltage is within a specific range of specifications, then it passes. Above or below, then it is deemed a failure. To the best of my knowledge, there is no load test performed which would measure the ability of the battery to build and maintain a charge.
That all said, I do not believe a diminished battery would cause the drop in mileage you mention. I would expect if the battery pack is diminished then you would notice the gas engine starting up much more often than normally.
I notice a considerable drop in mileage on mine in the winter months. From the typical 25MPG down to nearly 22.0MPG.
In your case, I would strongly suspect your problem is a maintenance problem. Air or fuel system maintenance may need to be performed. I am assuming you have done the air/fuel filter replacements. Your next would be to ensure the air intake system is cleaned. I do mine myself about every 50K miles using Gumout products, but there are plenty of quality names in the parts stores. If you are not comfortable with doing it yourself, you can have the service performed for around $125.00. My only caution would be to specify the Teraclean system.
I bring the car to the dealer for all scheduled maintenance and specifically brought it in to ask about the mileage. I did not see them run any test, but I was assured that they had run all the tests they had to run. When I pressed about what passing battery test means I could not get an answer, which is what I mean by a black box test. Since batteries fade rather than instantly die I would want to know what threshold marks the line between pass and fail.
I do 'think' I am noticing the engine running more, but there is no real way to quantify that, except by the gas mileage.
....so anyway, I am eager to try your suggestion, because it is quite possible it isn't the battery at all, but I would have thought the dealer would have offered me these sorts of simple remedies when I griped about the gas mileage.
i've bough hybrid kluger 2005 these july from Japan, and i live in mongolia.. when i 1st time drive it in mongolia it it was summer, and for like 100km it only use 10-12liter patrol.
but now out of suddenly these winter during December it start using too much patrol like 100km 27liter patrol why??? our Winter weather is like daytime -23C and at night -40C temperature.. but i do park it at warm garage at night. and during daytime i dont see these car using battery at all (even battery % never drop from 75%)! all the time engige is working maybe its because im using Hot condition all the time..??? but still
so my question is IS IT NORMAL that these car no longer use battery or hybrid thing bcuz of outside temperature is negative????? I see those my friends prius still using not much difference amount of patrol as SUMMER or Winter....
Patrol cost is quite expensive in mongolia novadays!
im buying full tank patrol 63$ USD=53Liter but it run only 205km until yellow light
during summer 53liter patrol goes around 450km
It is normal to see a decrease in mileage in the winter, primarily due to the gas engine running more often. It needs to do this regardless of the battery charge state in order to keep the coolant system at the proper temperature.
Ray