California Diesel Issue

2

Comments

  • nippononlynippononly Member Posts: 12,555
    Whew! Stoning? That's a bit harsh, don't you think?! :-)

    2014 Mini Cooper (stick shift of course), 2016 Camry hybrid, 2009 Outback Sport 5-spd (keeping the stick alive)

  • boaz47boaz47 Member Posts: 2,747
    Ok, but at least give me a shot at them during election time. :P But if you and I can see their errors shouldn't they see them as well? If they are so educated maybe they could spend a few moments looking at their actions before they contaminate our water supply. But then they are the air quality board aren't they? Maybe water falls outside of their education? The had to know the standards for fuel storage was that a non leaking tank only leaked a few gallons a day. They have to know these things don't they.
  • gagricegagrice Member Posts: 31,450
    If they are so educated

    I'll let you keep preaching. I just wanted to give you a hand. Our institutions of higher learning are not teaching common sense. That is why so many screw-ups get into politics. And CARB is Politics. Those same individuals would have a tough time making a living where you had to show something for your efforts other than bad tasting water.
  • nippononlynippononly Member Posts: 12,555
    with all this CARB bashing, I thought I should link the page to the bios of the 11 members of the board:
    http://www.arb.ca.gov/board/members.htm

    Most of them are teachers in addition to having roles in private industry.

    edit...OK, so I checked it out more. They are all part-time except the chair, all have to be confirmed by the state senate (so write your state senator if you dislike them! :-)), most are educators by training or trade, and they are about a 50/50 split between local politicians (county board of supervisors mostly) and people in private industry or education. Apparently it is set up so that each of the five regional air quality management districts gets a rep on the board. Makes sense.

    Regulars here will be amused (or not :-P) that the seat for "automotive industry" is currently vacant. :-)

    2014 Mini Cooper (stick shift of course), 2016 Camry hybrid, 2009 Outback Sport 5-spd (keeping the stick alive)

  • ruking1ruking1 Member Posts: 19,826
    Nominate Jeff Gordon, NASCAR racing driver (entertainer?) a native son !! :)
  • carlisimocarlisimo Member Posts: 1,280
    I got through college (including environmental engineering classes) a year ago and still have all me marbles. Right? Right? :P
  • alp8alp8 Member Posts: 656
    cities have air quality agencies?

    name one
  • alp8alp8 Member Posts: 656
    I know you have to be a frustrated as I am because you can hear the voices of others in these forums who have reached the end of their rope with CARB. Too bad stoning isn't vogue anymore.

    the voices of others? There are like 3 people in here who are complaining about CARB. You make it sound like a groundswell.

    and your comment about stoning public officials is considered "terrorism" these days, so hopefully someone is now monitoring your communications

    freakin' nutjobs!!!
  • gagricegagrice Member Posts: 31,450
    I only know of one nutjob currently trolling these waters. He likes to accuse others of being on crack when they do not fall goose step in line with his thinking.

    Oh, here's one close to me San Diego Air Pollution Control District. SDAPCD
    Almost all major cities in CA have one if you are at all familiar with CA politics.
  • boaz47boaz47 Member Posts: 2,747
    There was a forum on CARB and CAFE having reached the end of their usefulness. Many many people seem to feel they have lost their vision. I am not alone, at least I don't think I am.

    :confuse:
  • ruking1ruking1 Member Posts: 19,826
    Since 1955

    Bay Area Air Quality Management District (BAAQMD)
    939 Ellis Street, San Francisco, CA 94109

    http://dm.lwvba-ca.org/pages/baaqmd.html

    Compensation: $100/meeting day, plus travel expenses

    I would not think they require the members to get to the meetings by "public transit"? :)
  • gagricegagrice Member Posts: 31,450
    $47 million a year to hire some of the mayors crony friends. I am sure they are highly educated. Excelled in "Feeding at the Political Trough 101".
  • gagricegagrice Member Posts: 31,450
    There are several dozen air quality agencies in the state besides the much revered CARB.

    Here is the list: http://www.arb.ca.gov/capcoa/roster.htm
  • alp8alp8 Member Posts: 656
    the SDAPCD is countywide

    as is the Bay Area one, etc. etc.

    There are no CITY air pollution agencies (in California, at least)
  • alp8alp8 Member Posts: 656
    I only know of one nutjob currently trolling these waters. He likes to accuse others of being on crack when they do not fall goose step in line with his thinking.

    you really don't like it when I tell you that you are wrong, do you?

    you are not always wrong, but when you ARE wrong, and I point it out, you either ignore it or call me names

    interesting approach for someone who spends maybe 8 hours a day on this website
  • rockyleerockylee Member Posts: 14,017
    http://www.edmunds.com/insideline/do/News/articleId=116930

    Rocky
  • alp8alp8 Member Posts: 656
    what do we think those MB diesels are gonna cost? 50 large? 70 large? yikes.
  • rockyleerockylee Member Posts: 14,017
    alp8, not out of your range, but definetly out of mine. You being 80's young and still working should have a stash of cash hidden somewhere. :P

    Rocky :blush:

    P.S. We will have to ask Fintail, since he will have one for his "winter beater" ;)
  • nippononlynippononly Member Posts: 12,555
    The first application for the BlueTec will be the E-class, which is a $50K automobile, yes. However, it sure won't stop there - they have promised to offer most of the MB line with the diesel within a couple of years, and have intimated that this engine will go into some Jeeps and perhaps a Dodge or two in the foreseeable future as well?

    And VW is at about the same stage of the design of their own 50-state diesel engine, and you can bet that when it is ready, those cars won;t cost no $50 grand. More like $20-25K, the price of regular cars.

    2014 Mini Cooper (stick shift of course), 2016 Camry hybrid, 2009 Outback Sport 5-spd (keeping the stick alive)

  • fintailfintail Member Posts: 58,700
    Yeah, it will be about 50K, diesel E-class barely costs more than a gas E-class, like under a grand more. If I wanted a non-fast E-class, that'd be the one I'd want (and it isn't exactly slow anyway)
  • rockyleerockylee Member Posts: 14,017
    I must admit Mercedes makes a great diesel, but so does Audi. ;)

    Rocky
  • fintailfintail Member Posts: 58,700
    Lots of excellent diesels in Europe, reading CAR or TopGear makes me jealous.

    You should see the TopGear where Jeremy Clarkson gets 800 miles out of a tank in an A8 diesel.
  • rockyleerockylee Member Posts: 14,017
    Wow, that's impressive. Angus McKenzie an editor from Motor Trend said he preferred the V-8 4.2 Diesel over the gas version and said the diesel performed better do to the gobs of torque. ;)

    Rocky
  • boaz47boaz47 Member Posts: 2,747
    If we could catch a break with diesels we could use more Bio Diesel and that is renewable. even with some of the diesels we now have bio diesel has every reason to lessen our dependance on foreign oil. But organizations like the sierra club and CARB are so narrow focused they simply aren't willing to look at both sides of an issue. As long as they have political clout we in California will be at a standstill in relation to diesels. And while we are at it someone mentioned that the air was now better because of CARB? Well we have a higher ozone level in areas like Pomona in 2005 than we did in 1995 and that is using CARBS own reporting site. Any statement that without CARB it would have been worse is simply making excuses for failure. Making excuses for failure is perfectly acceptable in these forums, it just needs to be recognized.
  • fintailfintail Member Posts: 58,700
    I'd probably pick it too. I wonder if diesel luxocars could ever come back...and by that, I mean S-class/A8 range.
  • rockyleerockylee Member Posts: 14,017
    Good question. First they need to clean up the emissions before we will find out in this country.

    Rocky
  • gagricegagrice Member Posts: 31,450
    Los Angeles is still worst place in the Nation for most pollutants. NOx the fearsome diesel pollutant, is highest in Los Angeles of all places in the USA. So has all the money spent on the different agencies paid off? I don't think so. I don't think their banning new diesel cars made any difference. Only made for more GHG for those driving a gas car that would have bought a diesel car. Plus higher carbon monoxide and a few other choice particulates that are in the exhaust of a gas car.

    Air Quality Scorecard
  • rockyleerockylee Member Posts: 14,017
    That is why a bio-diesel car would help greatly. ;)

    Rocky
  • gagricegagrice Member Posts: 31,450
    Go Bio-WIllie. I want one of the limited Willie Willys. Most newer diesels in warm climates run great on 100% biodiesel. They are GHG neutral. No SOx along with several lesser pollutants are gone. There is a very strong biodiesel contingency in the Bay Area. Green Star Products Inc can not keep up with the demand for biodiesel.
  • phinneas519phinneas519 Member Posts: 113
    ...diesels are ubiquitous over in Europe. Either they have loose emissions standards or their environment is on the verge of collapse (or so many Californian councils would like one to believe). Which is it? Or is it neither? There has to be some reason, because I don't believe that it's because we believe our environment is much more worthwhile than Europe's.

    I'm inclined to believe that there's no excuse for the diesel lag over here if that's the case.
  • carlisimocarlisimo Member Posts: 1,280
    You can smell it in the streets of Europe, and see the soot on buildings from decades of older diesels. Some study showed that walking around though the streets of some cities in Italy was equivalent to smoking some number of cigarettes a day.

    Their efforts are geared towards reducing the amount of CO2 contributing to overall global warming. They're not focusing so much on their local air.
  • alp8alp8 Member Posts: 656
    re Pomona: You blame CARB and not Pomona's increasing population?
  • alp8alp8 Member Posts: 656
    Europe. Either they have loose emissions standards or their environment is on the verge of collapse (or so many Californian councils would like one to believe). Which is it? Or is it neither? There has to be some reason, because I don't believe that it's because we believe our environment is much more worthwhile than Europe's.

    Europe was far slower to pick up on environmental issues than the U.S. (though they now have stricter standards in many areas, such as electronic waste recycling). Remember, the US has had a national EPA since 1970. When did Europe get a national EPA?

    I'm waiting......

    still waiting.....

    Since Europe was not a nation, the air quality was regulated on a much more local basis. Thus, issues of transboundary pollution were pretty much ignored by national governments, though they certainly did complain about each other and to each other.

    Europeans also used to smoke a lot more than Americans. Does that mean smoking isn't bad for you?

    Maybe it's only bad for you if you are an American.
  • rockyleerockylee Member Posts: 14,017
    I thought they still smoked alot. :confuse:

    I guess they aren't as concern as us about air quality ?

    Rocky
  • alp8alp8 Member Posts: 656
    I think the smoking numbers are down in western europe. Not sure if we had good numbers in eastern europe. Not sure how eastern europe has changed.
  • alp8alp8 Member Posts: 656
    It looks like you are right. It seems to be because they just don't think smoking is bad for them.

    Only 19% of adult Americans smoke, against 34% of Germans and 27% of Britons.
    http://economist.com/finance/displaystory.cfm?story_id=6861848
    http://www.econ.brown.edu/econ/sthesis/AnnePapers/Anne27.html

    more interesting stuff
    http://sciencepolicy.colorado.edu/prometheus/archives/health/000797cutler_and_gl- aeser_o.html
  • ruking1ruking1 Member Posts: 19,826
    On that issue, L.A. is totally hidden in PLAIN SIGHT, LQQk... it is amazing how the anti diesel folks never point to their "nirvana" area or totally overlook it!! LA is easily 97% gasser !!!!! They even have the highest number and % of hybrids!!!

    Long term the dismantling of L.A. rate should be like -1% per year rate, but that is heresy on the highest order. Instead it is growing and as a by product will probably get worse.
  • gagricegagrice Member Posts: 31,450
    Los Angeles needs to put signs on all freeways entering the city. FULL, go to Phoenix or Las Vegas! We left LA in 1958 because it was getting too crowded and polluted back then. The air is better than the 1960s. Mainly due to removing the lead from gas. If they had just done what they knew then instead of waiting 40 more years, they may have not carried the distinction of dirtiest air in the USA. It has taken that long to remove the sulfur from gasoline and now diesel. It was not due to lack of knowledge, it was politics as usual.
  • jimlockeyjimlockey Member Posts: 265
    I just got back from Europe for the 6th time and we saw no dirty air like we see in LA.
  • jimlockeyjimlockey Member Posts: 265
    Now Congress is encouraging big oil to keep the price of diesel as high as possible to discourage the sell of diesel cars in the US. As for California, nothing pleases those guys.
  • carlisimocarlisimo Member Posts: 1,280
    If you didn't see any dirty air in Europe, there must not be any at all. How pleasant.

    Hope you had a good time. I've always gone to see family, so I've never had a chance to set myself free across the continent. I'd really like to, one of these days...
  • ruking1ruking1 Member Posts: 19,826
    So much for the concept that some folks tout here (USA) that higher fuel prices will lessen usage, etc, etc. Since gassers are fully half of the passenger vehicle fleet you are saying it is all diesels fault?

    Does it follow then that since LA is upwards of 97% gasser that it is all unleaded regulars fault?
  • gagricegagrice Member Posts: 31,450
    There is so much that goes on behind the scenes that we are just not privy to. CA politics are more than I can deal with at times. I went to Alaska to work in 1970. One of the reasons was the horrible legislature and governor. I came back and they have named a bridge after the loser Edmund Brown. This state has had a corrupt government run by a few strong arm politicians off and on for decades. We convinced a friend to run back in 1968. He won and within 3 years was as bad as the worst of them.

    CARB is just an outgrowth of the $$$$ politics. Turning around bad policy like the diesel car ban, could take years. And like you say it could be big oil paying officials to keep them off our roads. Makes sense. Diesel cuts consumption by 30%. A very sizable cut into the oil revenues.
  • boaz47boaz47 Member Posts: 2,747
    No more that someone that says CARB shouldn't share the blame for such educated men failing to realize the impact of their decisions. If CARB's efforts have improved anything shouldn't the air be better? Shouldn't LA have improved to the point that it was "Better Than" Dallas considering we have CARB and Texas doesn't? The Population in Dallas hasn't been stagnate either and yet we are no better off now against cities with similar population explosions as ours and they don't have CARB. CARB even requires some testing on diesels here in California, something called a snap back test, I have no clue what it is, and yet still our air hasn't placed us ahead of another city like Dallas that doesn't restrict diesels at all and has less stringent standards on gas cars than what CARB forces on us. You tell me how that is possible? It is almost like the perfect blind study when you use other relative dirty cities like Dallas or even Mexico city and compare it to LA. One with CARB restrictions for 40 years and the others without. Carb hasn't earned its money, political patronage or not. And we that live here are forced to buy used diesels or no diesels because of it.
  • alp8alp8 Member Posts: 656
    I just got back from Europe for the 6th time and we saw no dirty air like we see in LA.

    yikes - come on, guy - I'm sure you know better than that

    do I have to explain inversion layers AGAIN?

    ps I was in Paris this summer. The air quality was HORRIBLE. There was no reason to climb to the top of the Eifell Tower since you wouldn't see any farther from up there. But Europe doesn't have any bad air?

    Why do people mis-state FACTS. Facts are facts. Why lie about them?

    I guess it's possible that you could be in Europe and not notice any bad air days.

    Am not saying Europe is going to have air like LA. There aren't many places on earth that have the conditions that LA has. The freakin INDIANS couldn't see across the valley in 1850, and that was simply because of smoke from their fires and the layer cooking that gas over and over and over.
  • nippononlynippononly Member Posts: 12,555
    I don't think it's valid to compare one metro area with its own set of topographic challenges to another with an entirely different set of challenges. There is absolutely no way to make that an apples to apples comparison.

    2014 Mini Cooper (stick shift of course), 2016 Camry hybrid, 2009 Outback Sport 5-spd (keeping the stick alive)

  • boaz47boaz47 Member Posts: 2,747
    Sure there is. If Air quality in the LA basin was worse that Dallas when CARB was formed but only slightly worse and CARB came into effect then if Dallas doesn't have CARB and LA does then LA should be better than Dallas after 40 years. Because Dallas should have been getting worse as it got bigger and LA should have at least held its own. Unless CARB has had no effect and we are to give credit to some other forces. If that is the case once again CARB is worthless. Because one can't say things are better because of CARB if that are still worse than a competing city that doesn't have CARB. Texas is far less restrictive towards diesels than California and Still California has more bad air days. It seems if CARB worked at all then there should be some signs that other metro areas without CARB were getting worse and a large area with CARB was getting better. Otherwise what is the point of measuring air quality anyway?
  • alp8alp8 Member Posts: 656
    yes, absolutely true, if all other factors are equal

    but since they aren't.........
  • boaz47boaz47 Member Posts: 2,747
    Then what factors are helping Dallas without CARB? And why would a State with less restrictive smog standards and less restrictive diesels standards improve without CARB and LA and the Inland empire with CARB would not improve?
  • alp8alp8 Member Posts: 656
    well, first of all air quality almost EVERYWHERE is getting better, thanks to USEPA, not the state agencies

    secondly, air in LA can't improve as easily, due to local conditions

    Dallas, last time I checked, does not have inversion layers.

    Dalls is not an air "basin" - air does not get "trapped" in Dallas and cook and cook and cook

    Dallas not have a port, a very significant source of virtually unregulated air emissions
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