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Comments
tidester.... I agree management has made mistakes, but they have been coerced into some contracts with a "threat mentality" from unions which dates back to the 40's. I live near a large Northeastern city where I have SEEN this in action. I'm talking plant sabotoge and physical violence (even from teacher's unions). While its less frequent today, it always rears its ugly head during a labor dispute... another reason I dislike unions. And...if you were someone in a management negotiating position with a family, wondering whether your house would be vandalized, or worse, you might give in to some "gentle persuasion". So.... where's Jimmy Hoffa buried? ;-)
baggs... actually at the NHTSA site, there is no Hyundai Truck entry, but Ford Truck and Mazda Truck have the Escape/Tribute listed under them. You're right, its curious. I just got my owners card for the Santa Fe and its registered as a "Sedan". Go figure!
tidester
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SUVs
Murphy
I'm going to check out lemon laws in my state--but does anyone know how that works when you buy in a different state than you live in?
Also, should individual consumers report problems like this to some government agency, and if so, which one? Is that the National Transportation Safety Board?
Also, I'd be interested in seeing anyone's letter (if they would care to share) to the manufacturer, or at least get some good talking points. Can I legitimately threaten legal action, for example, if Mazda continues to not deal with such a catastrophic problem? I certainly agree with the comments that engine failure creates a death trap waiting to happen. But I do not want to die, or take anyone with me, to prove a point. I, too, am restricting my Tribute driving to in-town, 30 mph., making it the most expensive errand-runner around.
Alto, this is only my second time posting here and I saw some messages that seemed to indicate we are not supposed to talk about problems here. If that's true, sorry for the added intrusion (but isn't that what this kind of forum would be useful for). If I've misunderstood those messages, well, whew.
Lynn
Steve
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SUVs, Vans and Aftermarket & Accessories Message Boards
Is Ford hiding this issue? No one can be certain except the Ford execs. It is not uncommon for manufacturers to downplay their mistakes. That's the price we pay for living in the kind of society we have. It's only when they go the lengths that Mitsubishi did, that they get into trouble (Mitsu hid complaints in an employee's locker for a few years). Another recall for the Escape would be a minor disaster for sales. But a scandal about hiding the problem would be a complete disaster. I'm sure that Ford isn't willing to risk that.
If the issue is reported to the NHTSA frequently enough, they will investigate. If the NHTSA finds sufficient evidence to suggest that the problem is safety related (and not just an annoying defect), they will force a recall. I'm not certain if there has to be a known fix before the recall can be made public. Anybody else know?
The proposed fix I mentioned earlier does explain the problem. It also explains why changing the PCM in earlier models did not fix the problem for everyone. So I see no real reason to assume that it won't fix it. On the other hand, I have a healthy amount of skepticism when it comes to this particular Ford product. I'd say give the fix a try. If it doesn't work, go make lemonade with your Ford/Mazda rep.
Good luck.
varmint,
I would think that a fix would have to be approved before they can announce a recall. Have you ever heard of a recall that makes you wait for one? I can't think of one, and I usually keep a pretty close eye on all of them.
tidester
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SUVs
Not only does it have to create an unsafe situation, you also have to prove that the defective vehicle is at fault.
Take Tidester's example. If I get t-boned at an intersection when my car stalls, who gets blamed? The guy who does the t-boning (can I write that here?). That's who. If the other vehicle cannot stop in time, it's the driver's fault, not the fault of my vehicle.
Now, I can appreciate Eld1's position. I'm not particularly fond of leaving my safety/life in the hands of the other guy. He has good reason to feel unsafe. But it's not because of his vehicle, it's because he doesn't trust the other drivers.
Again, I can sympathize. I'm just not sure that the NHTSA will see it the same way. They have to approach the issue from a legal standpoint.
Regarding the recall - I've always assumed what Maltb posted is the correct answer, but I've never seen it confirmed.
To make a turn in front of someone, you are supposed to do it ONLY if you can do it safely.
And even if it is someone else's fault if you get T-boned, you could be dead right.
From all that I've seen reported of the stalling it appears:
a. to occur only at lower speeds while coasting.
b. The vehicle does not 'stop dead in its tracks' but instead does coast along. Granted with no power steering/brakes, but there braking and steering capability so control can be maintained. Also the brake lights (and headlights) are still in working order, so other vehicles beind you can see those and know that somethings up..
c. It has never occured during acceleration from a stop, so the theory of being 'stopped in an intersection' seems extremely unlikely..
I know it must be frustrating to those who are experiencing the problem, but some folks are clearly blowing this out of proportion..
If you don't feel safe driving a vehicle, then that is your personal decision and you are wise to look into getting another vehicle.
I've only had one occasion (with a previous Ford vehicle) to call the Ford 1-800 customer service number. I was always firm, polite, professional, and most importantly reasonable. I got exactly what I was asking for (approved by the Regional rep).
From many, many posts and stories on boards like this, I have seen a few definite patterns on Ford Customer Service:
If you immediately go on the complete offensive and make it clear to Ford that no matter what they do, you won't be satisfied, then Ford and the Dealerships quickly go on the defensive. They have nothing to lose.
Folks who use the other tactic, and tell Ford what it would take to make them satisfied (thats reasonable), seem to have better luck getting TSB's performed etc and an overall positive customer service experience. (btw, in some cases going through the lemon law process is the reasonable thing to do).
Actually, traffic fatalities represent a relatively minor contribution to mortality (that is NOT to say it is a minor problem!). Something on the order of 2,500,000 people die each year in the U.S. from all causes while highway fatalities are under 45,000.
Bess makes an excellent point in that most stalling occurs in non-lifethreatening situations. Nevertheless, stalling has been know to occur at high speeds (it happened to me once!) and other potentially lifethreatening situations.
tidester
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SUVs
What if your approaching a red light as the Escape stalls -- life threatening.
Your other points are well taken, maybe I could have used a "softer" approach with Ford --and have been further along in getting rid of the Escape. At the end of the day, I just need another vehicle even if it's another Ford product. However, why should I lose ANY money because they produced a LEMON.
You should absolutely not lose any money on your Escape.. If Ford through arbitration does not offer a satisfactory deal, then there is the lemon law..
In my state, the lemon law is required to compensate for the MSRP of the vehicle and not what you paid for it.. A co-worker of mine ended up getting a vehicle with more options because of the difference in what he paid vs what he received via the lemon law.. (This was about 4 years ago).
Ford does not manufacture every component in its vehicles, and often has to resort to multiple suppliers for the same part. I'm not sure if this is the case with the Escape stalling issue.
From what is being reported, there are multiple versions of the PCM hardware and software being used. (reports of the fix being, a. reflash the PCM, and b. some PCM are not reprogrammable so they need to be replaced, etc..)
The fact that there are so many more Escapes with no problems tells me that the Escape's design is sound.
Any advice would be appreciated. I am afraid to drive the vehicle at this point.
Lynn
tidester
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SUVs
Would you tell us how many that is?
Thanks!
Well, got a bit of bad news for you bashers..
At my daughters volleyball practice last week a guy noticed I owned an Escape. He asked if he could take a look. He looked, he liked, he now owns a dark grey XLT V6... SEE YA!!
1. I understand that there may be a TSB providing direction on fixing the problem. It involves reprogramming the PCM on vehicles which have a more recent reprogrammable PCM. It involves replacing and reprogramming the PCM on older vehicles that do not have the reprogrammable PCM. I have read of people who had the part replaced and still experienced the stall. In those cases, it is not clear to me whether the part was also reprogrammed. Has anyone had the part replaced and reprogrammed and still experienced the stall? If so, what model year is the vehicle and where do you live? Do you know the TSB#, part #s, and date of the service?
NHTSA shows stalls on the Tributes from 2002 model year, with occurences as recently as the end of MArch 2002 and April 4 2002. It is not clear whether those vehicle were sold before the TSB, whether the dealer sold the vehicle after the date of a TSB without performing the fix.
Is there a different issue for the Mazda v. Ford, have the companies responded differently?
I contacted a dealer, and they returned my call (while I was out of town-left a msg). Informed me that problems primarily occurred in Hawaii, also in some areas in US such as Florida. They said it was a problem experienced in areas with high humidity.
The dealer siad they had not had any reported problems on Tributes they sold. One salesman said he had contacted his customers and none had reported stalls. This is in Southern Oregon.
Any information you can provide that would help narrow issues down would be appreciated--actual owners who have experienced problems.
Also, what is observed fuel economy and your style of driving. Edmunds test drivers had varied results (apparently based on driving habits) ranging from 11-18 to 17.7-21.5 to 13.8-25.2.
There was some discussion about using a different motor oil. HAs anyone done this? Purpose? Results?
Thanks
Would I like to see Ford go out of business. You bet. Why - because they sold me a dangerous car and are unwilling to do anything about it.
Murphy
On an unrelated note, I purchased my Escape for 2 reasons.
1. It was the best designed vehicle for my needs.
2. Since this was my first new vehicle purchase, I wanted to buy American and see what all the fuss about quality was.
My next vehicle will be bought based on a company's/dealer's merit and their ability to address problems, whether the company is American or not.
You mean like this?
a. Often folks post questions here asking about Escapes that I may be able to help answer.. For example, the most common cause for the 'check engine light is the failure to tighten the gas cap correctly'.
This thread is not only about the 'stalling' issue..
b. I'm curious about what other folks see as problems. (for example, some see the automatic tranny shift lever length as a 'problem' etc.) What some folks see as a problem, I might not have even given a 2nd thought to. After seeing their point of view, I may see the issue in a different light.
c. If my Escape were develop a symptom that others have experienced, I may be better educated on how to handle the situation..
I very much agree with andlesman's statment that:
"My next vehicle will be bought based on a company's/dealer's merit and their ability to address problems, whether the company is American or not"
In my experience with my local Ford dealership and FoMoCo, they did provide good service.
For sure you should not take a 10 or 12k loss on the Escape.. Worse case would be you could go to another brand and trade your Escape in for an equalivalent vehicle.. (You'd still lose money, but nothing in the range of 10k). Best case is you can go forward with your local lemon law processing via state attorney general and you will not be out any $$.
bri66 - IF, and that is IF a stalling problem pops up with my Escape I will post it here. My whole point is some want others to believe the Escape/Tribute are just plain problematic vehicles. Yet, if you go out onto the net and visit other chat rooms, (I can't link you because I have already been spanked for doing so) you will see there are thousands upon thousands of happy Escape/Trib owners. There is also a site that shows Honda is witholding TSB information.. about ALL its vehicles...
People tend not to discuss their vehicle when it's running right, and this is a problems forum, so it's going to look like everyone here has something wrong. Percentage-wise, it's very few people, but if it's your rig, you're going to be upset.
Steve
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SUVs, Vans and Aftermarket & Accessories Message Boards
To rebutt any and all criticisms/complaints about the Escape.
The bigger problem here is that many people tend not to even own the vehicle but still would like to make it look like everyone has something wrong.
Steve
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SUVs, Vans and Aftermarket & Accessories Message Boards
I do participate in this thread and I do not own an Escape or Tribute. However, I am not posting problems.
I took Scape2 up on his charge and decided to do some fact checking. I looked back about 200 posts and haven't found a single post of mine reporting a problem or adding fuel to the fire. In fact, there are times when I've been defending the Escape.
1242 - Clarifying the number of complaints vs the number of units sold.
1269, 1307, and 1309 - Defending the Escape for being an entry level vehicle.
1384 - Defending the Escape against the Tapperts and clarifying the lemon law.
1408 - Reposting the likely fix for stalling.
1414 and 1419- Proposing why the NHTSA might not categorize the Escape's stalling problem as a recall.
So I'll simply refer Ver2sus1 and Scape2 back to what I said in post 1394:
"Do I post here? Yes. Do I post problems? No."
Guys, try actually reading the posts before you go on the defensive.