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The SF is a heavy vehicle, so maybe that's why you feel it's more substantial. Still, Hyundai ought to look at ways to make it lighter, so that it's quicker and more fuel efficient. The Sedona has the same problem.
-juice
You're right the SF is a heavy vehicle and that helps its solid feel - and probably its GOOD IIHS saftey rating (as opposed to the Tribscape's Marginal rating). I don't think Hyundai will want to give up that safety rating to lighten the SF. The solid doors may have had to do with the steel crossmember in the doors (which adds weight). But so much of the SF had more quality, and that had nothing to do with weight. Everything from the smartly-styled interior to the MUCH better design and quality of the retractable cargo cover.
Steve
Host
SUVs, Vans and Aftermarket & Accessories Message Boards
Forester also got a good rating, and it's much lighter. Lots of light, compact cars do well (Beetle, for example). To me it's a bigger accomplishment to be light and still score well.
Hmm, Ford was run by European bosses for a long time (Alex Trotten IIRC). They even trained employees to use English spelling, i.e. colour instead of color. Customers' money paid for that labour, even though it was your neighbour working on the assembly line.
Then Jac Nasser (another non-american) had his stint. Clay Ford Jr. takes over and basically battles with his own maternal great-grandfather's american-owned company Firestone, and you're supposed to feel patriotic?
Jeep is german owned now. Subaru's biggest shareholder is GM. And it looks like DCX has a small stake in Hyundai that might be increased. So tracing where the money goes is extremely difficult.
-juice
-juice
-Frank P.
-juice
Seriously, let's just evaluate the auto's on $ and quality and let the free market and politics play out as they will without either of us making a significant purchase.
Now regarding your statement that CR skews their articles to reflect their reader demographics... what you're saying is that CR subscribers are well-informed, practical, cost conscious, and value quality and safety (since these are the areas that CR emphasizes). So am I to conclude that buyers of domestic autos don't care about any of these issues?
-Frank P.
Onesantafe - you can justify in your own mind your purchase and I know Steve ( our host ) has aksed to stay off politics but I feel the need to answer your rough reply. Fact is fact.. you just sent over $19,000 U.S. dollars, increased our foreign debt and gave to a country that doesn't believe in free trade more money. Americans are so shortsided and think such short term.. Ever asked where your kids are going to work? or even yourself in the next 10-20 years? Educate yourself.. we are shipping manufacturing/technical you name it, jobs overseas as fast as you can blink.. Plenty of this information out on the net.
Fact is the Escape will just plain out perform you Santa Fe in towing, 0-60, slalom, handling, you name it. the styling is only one a mother could love..
Surveys show that Ford makes inferior vehicles - period. One vehicle or line of vehicles may buck the trend, but the trend is there. And the only way around (apparently)it is a belief in a hidden conspiracy to discredit American manufacturers. As Mulder said to Skully, "Gee, it sounds like crap when you say it." Such a "conspiracy" is crap.
American manufacturers are the unpatriotic ones, not consumers that get the best vehicles available for their own purposes. American manufacturers have betrayed us, not the other way around, by consistently making the choices that put inferior vehicles on their franchisee's car lots. Ford tough? Ha! Better than it has to be? Please! We don't deserve the best you can make -- is that it GMC? The mayor of Truckville? Yeah, when it's not in pieces in the shop.
Steve? Do you think something should be done about this? So many of scape2's threads on this board revolve around us (American Auto Manufacturers) vs. them (foreign makes). Everytime we try to respond with some opposing views to this gibberish, we are told to go to the News & Views boards. And that's absolutely correct, but scape's diatribes should be answered on the board in which they are posted to have a balanced view of things.. Should this be stopped at the source? This board is about the Forester vs. the Santa Fe vs the Liberty vs. the Tribscape... and he should keep his UAW diatribe off of this board...
I keep telling you to go to the News and Views right here at Edmunds.. and look up the message board that has CR as a topic. There are many other people in this room that question the reliability, bias, data, you name it that CR gives the public. There are also links to other articles with facts that question CR's data collection.
Ever heard the phrase-- People that live in glass houses shouldn't throw stones??
Consumer Reports?
fwiw, I haven't forgiven CR for steering me wrong on a canoe purchase in 1974.
Steve
Host
SUVs, Vans and Aftermarket & Accessories Message Boards
tidester
Host
SUVs
-mad
To paraphrase what that experience taught me, magazines are no substitutes for talking to people who are driving what you think you'd like to drive.
Steve
Host
SUVs, Vans and Aftermarket & Accessories Message Boards
You mention Odyssey - CR tells you to avoid the '99 models in their 2002 Buyer's Guide book.
You want a conspiracy? How about the Big 3 conspiring against CR to damage their credibility? They figure it'll cost less than fixing their quality issues!
Seriously, Ford admits they flopped on the launches of the Focus and Escape, so why defend them when even they will admit it? If you applaud poor quality you will get more poor quality.
I'm Brazilian but I'd be the first to tell you to avoid certain low quality products from Brazil. They only hurt our image.
-juice
Juice - Having lived in Brazil, I can empathize with your Brazilian quality concerns - that's one thing that's made me hesitate to look at the Mini. I'm a little surprised more people haven't voiced concerns about the Pentastar engine in BMW's "premium small car..."
-Jason
jason - love the human-html - and I agree, I wouldn't have been caught dead in a Hyundai 5 *months* ago and now there is one in my garage after very careful research and its doing quite well, thank you.
Brazil has a hit-or-miss record on quality. I lived there from 1980-1985 and the cars Brazilian plants put out were horrible. 2 year old cars would rust all the way through. The one that made it here was the VW Fox, remember those? Not many people do. Can't say I'm proud of those.
It was pressure from imports that forced them to improve, and today they are much better. Honda, Toyota, and VW all opened new factories in Brazil.
The Golfs you buy here are made in Brazil, and I'm proud to say their quality is far better than the ones Mexico put out. Anyone else notice VW's quality has crept up?
The Mini engines are a joint venture, oddly enough, of Chrysler and BMW. Go figure. Then again, Brazil had Autolatina, a Ford/VW marriage, for a long time (now dissolved). I really hope the Mini engines are reliable. The cars seem to be good enough to create a cult following.
Now that would make me proud.
-juice
Back on topic (sorta...) - I read today that Ford has ordered dealers stop selling Focus SVTs until they can fix a problem with the cruise control cable that can cause the throttle to stick open. My brother bought a '99 Escort when the Focii first came out - I thought he was an idiot at first, but now I'm glad he went for the tried and true design. Not one problem so far. Ford's newer designs seem very competitive but a little less than fully baked.
-Jason
Vectra is nice, but it's really a clone of an Opel. Made in Brazil, though. My brother owns one. You might like the Astra, too.
I owned an '91 Escort GT, first year of the Mazda platform. The GT even had a Protoge engine and tranny, and the block is still used in Miatas today (the oil filter even has the same part number). Ford did the body and the interior.
While the powertrain was good (107k miles on the original clutch with no break downs), the interior fell apart little by little. The paint quality was poor, trim bits and pieces started to fall. The fuel guage was possessed, though not as bad as the motorized mice seatbelts were. Not a terrible car but lots of niggling problems. Definitely a v1.0.
My Subie is much, much better, even though I took the risk of buying another first year model.
-juice
Competition improves the breed. It benefits everyone.
-juice
So which is the better vehicle? Look obviously I think mine is, but not completely. The Jeep is using an insane amount of petrol, while the Escape is fairly normal (which is funny as my mate works for the world's largest petrol company and I don't). I can tow a boat - the Escape can't (at least not a real boat). I can go offroad - the Escape can go on beaches. The Jeep is no faster than the Escape.
I have to say that I could have lived with the Escape. Damn happy with the Jeep though. Also there are literally none on the roads over here whereas there are a lot of Escapes.
Andy
Also, Once again you don't tell the WHOLE story with the SVT focus. This recall only affects the SVT not ALL Focus vehicles. Second only about 540 TOTAL SVT Focus have been made. Third, the majority of these had not even made it off the dealers lots yet into... PRE-sold persons hands..
Get your stories straight folks before you go blowing yet another small issue out of context..
I like the SVT. The regular Focus had a bumpy start, something Ford admits openly.
-juice
There's a lot to like about the Escape. However, due to Ford's current reputation for reliability, the only way I'd consider buying an Escape was if it was made by someone else. Well okay, they'd also have to offer the 5-speed with the real engine first.
-Frank P.
In general, I think it is a good idea to spend my money as close to home as possible.
Mazda has a longer warranty than Ford (up to 14k extra miles), and IMO the Tribute is more cleanly styled, so I'd pick that anyway.
But if Mazda is going to produce an "SUV raised by sports cars", I'd like to see a manual tranny with the V6!
-juice
I simply pointed out that you posted incorrect, misleading information about the Focus SVT recall. You made it sound like it was all Focus's. You didn't point out that only about 540 SVT's have been built, only a handful made it into actual owners hands that were pre-bought, the vast majority were still either on their way to the dealerships or still on dealerships lots..
Its misleading posts like this that give Ford a bad name because you get people that don't do their own research.. Such as with the Escape initial recalls. If anyone looked at the actual data they would see a different light....
The Mazda styling is aimed more at women, Focus styling is more masculine in my opinion..
A 5spd V6 is supposed to come in the Escape in 2004...
You mentioned that the Trib was designed more for women and I agree, but I see mainly women driving all 4 vehicles mentioned on this board. I saw 2 Tribs, 3 Santa Fes and about 7 Escapes on my winding way into work this morning and I think I saw only one other male driver in them! Is it a "feminist power" thing? (sorry, ladies). Maybe I should grow my hair.... plus the Pine Green coloration of my Santa Fe.... woah... crisis...
-juice
Seriously, though, I don't know why more women are attracted to SUVs like those this board covers. This woman is only interested in is getting to work on time, no matter what the road conditions are. I have looked at, but do not own any of these 4 vehicles. I think that the Forester is the one that will best suit my needs,and the one I'll probably buy if I can ever sort out my finances (which seems like an impossible task, considering how fast my Tacoma is depreciating). I won't say that it is the best vehicle in this bunch for everyone.
My reasons? I didn't like the powertrain mix on the Santa Fe I test drove. It was sluggish going up a freeway overpass and ended up shifting down a gear lower than it should have when I asked for more acceleration. If I were a "flatlander" I wouldn't care, for someone who commutes from sea level to 6,000 feet every day (and who burned up 2 auto trannys in a Nissan in one year) that is a real problem. Otherwise I thought you got lots for your money.
The Liberty has a nice looking interior, but the rear seats don't fold flat. I didn't drive it long enough to get a feel for the seats, though someone I talked to said they found the seats got uncomfortable on long drives. My husband thought it felt too "heavy" but I liked the way it drove. It gets about the same gas mileage as our Wrangler. All things being equal, I (and our Golden) would rather have another Wrangler.
While I got serious about the Escape/Tribute (4 banger, 5 speed) for a while, it wasn't as peppy as the Forester (I guess weight). I'd like more long term reliability data on how the V6 with the auto holds up (I've heard too many mountain people who have had tranny problems with Explorers, so while I know they are different beasts, I say, "show me"). If the Escape came with a V6 and a 5 speed I probably would have bought one last year.
So it looks like the Forester, with their choice of trannys, long term reliability, and good gas mileage, seems to be winning out.
If I lived somewhere else, didn't commute the up and down miles I do, take part in the acivities I like, or have a dog, my choices could be quite different. As I said, many women are very practical people...
$500 isn't much of an incentive when you are looking at a 17K-22K vehicle.
I think a larger 4-cyl in the Escutes would be very interesting.
mtngal: I'd suggest waiting for the 2003 Forester, which arrives in about a month. Prices ought to stay flat, but it'll be 90 lbs lighter, with an aluminum hood, and even better EPA numbers for mileage.
Top that off with 16" rims standard, quicker steering, wider track, slightly more room, better cup holders, and nicer interior materials. I have a '98 but crave the 2003 I sat in at the NY Auto Show.
For MY2004 they'll offer a turbo, reportedly with 217hp, that ought to easily be the quickest small SUV in the market. If you can wait that long.
If you're shopping check fitzmall.com. You can get a 2002 L model for $19 grand, freight included. They have a heavily loaded model with leather, moonroof, and automatic still go for $22,795. And that includes heated seats, side air bags, 4 disc brakes with ABS, alloys, you name it. Equip any competitor with all that and you'll spend more, no doubt.
-juice
mtngal - you're right at least in the automotive sense, women have a greater sense of practicality (NOT when it comes to houses, however! Or decorating..imagine tiny Kleenex boxes...what's up with that?!)
In reality, the choice of a mini-SUV was mine. I wanted something with some cargo-carrying capability (and the SantaFe has come in handy already!), yet a nice car-like ride with 4WD and higher ground clearance (to get thru the snow and the water). Yet, I did not want a "truck" with stiff handling and poor gas mileage. I kept loving the Tribute...for 3 months, it was the leader. My wife occasionally asked me to look at the Santa Fe, but I kept coming up with "A Hyundai?", "not enough leg room!", etc. Then when I got to look at them side-by-side (you've heard this already, haven't you?) I felt the SF was a better, more thoughtfully-built vehicle and I felt if Hyundai could build such a good vehicle, it was worth taking the chance. So, I guess the "class" of vehicle was my choice, by the vehicle itself was my wife's choice (sort of.... I'm the boss in our house and I have my wife's permission to say so!)...