Suzuki Grand Vitara vs Subaru Forester vs Hyundai Santa Fe vs Jeep Liberty vs Ford Escape vs Saturn

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Comments

  • clever1clever1 Member Posts: 123
    mtngal: You might want to check out escapehev.com -- the mileage estimates are nothing to get excited about. Unless something happens with engineering improvements or tax subsidies, etc., it's going to be a more expensive vehicle that still only gets 29mpg/hwy and 40mpg/city (yes, that's correct) in a two-wheel-drive configuration (4x4 will get lower mileage). That would push me in the direction of a Subaru for economy, if not a Jeep for versatility.
  • nippononlynippononly Member Posts: 12,555
    that is almost twice the regular car's mileage! I would say that is a heck of an improvement, if what you want is this type of car. Subaru's closest alternative is the smaller Forester, and it only gets mid-20's! The Jeep is definitely more versatile, but not really a true competitor to the Escape - they are different types of vehicles. AND it gets about 18, doesn't it?

    2014 Mini Cooper (stick shift of course), 2016 Camry hybrid, 2009 Outback Sport 5-spd (keeping the stick alive)

  • mtngalmtngal Member Posts: 1,911
    Thanks for the info - I'll keep my eyes out for more information. With highway mpg figures not much higher than the Subies it wouldn't make sense for me. Sounds like they took an approach similar to Toyota's Prius - which would be wonderful for someone who used their vehicle mainly around town (not me).

    Looks like it is back to the Subies and Jeeps for me. A funny story about Trackers. A friend of mine had one and the winter before, she couldn't get up to her house 3 days in a row (ice & snow) even with snow tires and a couple of concrete blocks in the back, so she sold the house. If it were me, I'd replace the car! By the way, many of the people that live in her neighborhood drive various types of Subies...
  • baggs32baggs32 Member Posts: 3,229
    The HEV Escape may only get 29 mpg on the highway (which is still more than most others in the class), but they say it will still feel like the Duratec V6 in doing so. The Subaru's don't have that kind of power which does come in handy when climbing large hills. The Liberty doesn't come close here. It's mpg is much much lower.

    However, I too am little skeptical about their (Ford's) power/mpg claims.
  • clever1clever1 Member Posts: 123
    nippononly: Mostly, I'm unimpressed by the mileage figures because available technology can do much, much better than that -- the focus of current hybrid designs is to get a corner on an emerging market (especially with regard to California) without threatening the sales of more profitable traditional vehicles (profits for manufacturers and from gas sales). I'm sure the current focus on emissions restrictions is partly to blame for diminished mpg., but economists often cite that the American economy (and related politics) is so heavily vested in oil profit that any significant reduction in demand would be devastating to many sectors. Sure, that's not what gets lip service in the media, and there is enormous business opportunity in alternative energy; but, decisionmakers are lining their pockets from the status quo and are not prepared to shift from the easy money. If that were not the case, there would be more incentive available to develop alternative technology. That hasn't happened since the 70s, and doesn't seem likely to change anytime soon.

    Aside from the bigger picture, what you may have missed is that the 29mpg/hwy rating isn't high enough to help highway commuters rationalize the added purchase price. All hybrids seem to be suffering this predictable outcome, although they do appeal to city drivers. Also note that a 2x4 configuration isn't what mtngal is after.

    I'm wondering how newer clean diesel designs (currently not available in the US) compare.
  • anonymous02anonymous02 Member Posts: 1,538
    "Chevy Tracker and its Suzuki twin. And the Amigo, oops, I mean Rodeo Sport."

    Yeah, but those aren't true convertibles. They have metal over your head, with a sunroof and open back (kind of simplifying).
  • mrgallupmrgallup Member Posts: 31
    Just wondering if anyone here is using either XM or Sirius satellite radio? The choice of entertaining radio is not that diverse here in ole Nebraska - and I have been considering the possiblity of adding this feature to my Lib.

    Most interested in how you hooked it up - what you had to add or replace to make it work. I have the upgraded Infinity stereo from the 27G package - and the owners manual makes reference to satellite as being an available choice in the mode (along w/ AM, FM, CD etc) so it seems like there is some built-in support - but I can't find any other information about it.

    Thanks for any info shared.
  • storytellerstoryteller Member Posts: 476
    Mike: a little note of caution. Satellite radio has burned up a lot of venture capitol investment $$ without returning anything, so its future is open to question. Do your homework before committing to a promising technology that hasn't demonstrated it will stick around.

    Steve
  • clever1clever1 Member Posts: 123
    mrgallup: storyteller makes a good point. However, if you're interested in installation instructions, your best general resource is probably crutchfield.com (definitely not the most price competitive, but they carry just about everything and have basic and vehicle-specific hook-up advice on their website). Last time I checked, there wasn't a satellite radio device designed to work with the Liberty's steering wheel mounted controls.
  • steverstever Guest Posts: 52,454
    The burn rate is pretty high and the subscriber base is just a bit over 200,000, but GM owns a part of XM and lots of cheaper radios are appearing, so satellite isn't dead by a long shot.


    There are some good recent links in the XM & Sirius Satellite Radio discussion.



    Steve

    Host

    SUVs, Vans and Aftermarket & Accessories Message Boards

  • vuefor2vuefor2 Member Posts: 490
    Just saw in the Vue forum that Saturn is offering 0% for 60 months on new Vue's.

    Certainly a great deal!
  • baggs32baggs32 Member Posts: 3,229
    A lot of people view these dealer incentives and low interest rates as desperate methods. I think they are great for the we the consumers because we are ultimately the winners. Let's face it, all of the vehicles in this discussion are pretty much the same. This allows one to shop for the better price value while still receiving the same overall package.

    There were no deals at all when we bought our Escape, and I would have definitely waited to buy one had I known some, however modest they are, would be available a few months later.
  • ateixeiraateixeira Member Posts: 72,587
    Incentives keep people shopping in tough times. Generally I like them, but go too crazy and resale erodes badly.

    Edmunds Live was SWEET! Please, pretty please, do it again! I took the Grand Vitara, CR-V, Forester, Durango, and XTerra on a fun course that included a slalom, a little muddy hill climb to test the AWD/4WD, braking, acceleration, and bumpy ride tests. I wish every dealer offered something like that!

    I'm glad XM exists because the guy I bought my 6CD changer from took it out to install his XM system. So i got a bargain out of the deal.

    -juice
  • daveghhdaveghh Member Posts: 495
    Juice,

    How did the CRV compare to the other SUV's on the mud slope???
  • dindakdindak Member Posts: 6,632
    Well, the US economy is slowing and as long as the drums of war keep beating and the stock market keeps falling you are going to see more and more in the way of deals. The 0% offered on the VUE is pretty darn good and I wouldn't be surprised to see Ford match it on the Escape.
  • odie6lodie6l Member Posts: 1,173
    I had owned a wrangler and can say the only thing I miss about it is the terrible gas mileage.


    apparently the Freelander will be getting a convertable 2dr option, so maybe being that Ford owns the Land Rover, they will make a version of the Escape and Tribute with a 2dr convert option.

    I've seen pictures of the M-ONE-11 from some auto shows.

    here's a link to an article about it:

    http://www.autoweb.com.au/id_FOR/doc_for0110114/article.html

    I would deffinatly look at the convertable, but it would have to have a top on the back for the nasty winters we get here in PA. but then that is only my opinion.


    Odie

  • anonymous02anonymous02 Member Posts: 1,538
    It looks kind of like the original 4-Runner.
  • ateixeiraateixeira Member Posts: 72,587
    The CR-V was interesting in that the front tires would slip before climbing the steepest slope. You could then feel the rears kick in to assist.

    The Forester didn't slip. Nor did the Grand Vitara, XTerra or the Durango (all locked in 4wd).

    Interestingly, the RAV4 did let the front tires slip a bit, even though it has a VC similar to the Forester.

    Actually, now that I think about it - the Forester was an automatic (all were auto), and that uses sensors to pro-actively send more power to the rear axle when going up a steep hill (because more weight is on the rear axle).

    So IMO the CR-V and RAV4 scored lower on that test than the others. It was cool to experience the differences first hand.

    -juice
  • daveghhdaveghh Member Posts: 495
    ateixeira,

    Thanks for the info! I wish I could have participated in that "event". Sounds like a lot of fun.

    It is interesting that the CRV doesn't have a locking option.
  • ateixeiraateixeira Member Posts: 72,587
    Yeah, it uses a rotary blade coupling, similar to the Vue and the Escape.

    The Escape actually carries the edge in that group, because you can lock it manually, with a button. It's still only for slippery surfaces, else you'd get some nasty binding in the driveline, or tires scrubbing, or both.

    Unfortunately, I could not try the Escape. It was MIA from the event, even though it was supposed to show up, because they were recalled for steering wheels that could fall off. Edmunds had a note about it, and I took a photo next to the note, it was kinda funny.

    -juice
  • anonymous02anonymous02 Member Posts: 1,538
    "...The Escape actually carries the edge in that group, because you can lock it manually, with a button. It's still only for slippery surfaces, else you'd get some nasty binding in the driveline, or tires scrubbing, or both."

    So, what you're essentially saying is...the Escape isn't really for off-road use on rocky terrain?
  • baggs32baggs32 Member Posts: 3,229
    "So, what you're essentially saying is...the Escape isn't really for off-road use on rocky terrain?"

    None of these small SUV's really are. They don't have the ground clearance among other things.

    With the 4X4 on in the Escape you don't feel the front tires slip before the rears kick in all the way because some power is already being sent back there. It's just not the full 50/50 split of the "true" 4X4's. It's actually kind of nice to have for snow, sand, and gravel.

    It's not really necessary, but it does make a difference.
  • anonymous02anonymous02 Member Posts: 1,538
    Not even the Liberty?

    I think once again, the Liberty stands out above the rest of this class.
  • paisanpaisan Member Posts: 21,181
    For your purposes out of the ones here listed the Liberty would suit you. I'd take a hard look at a used Trooper, you can pick em up relatively in-expensively and would serve your purposes very well.

    -mike
  • allhorizonallhorizon Member Posts: 483
    P. Braun,

    Clean Diesel will come to the US in a few years, long before any new Diesel car has lost its life.

    Meanwhile you can get ~50mpg in a VW Jetta TDI (wagon). With snow tires or all-seasons it's not too bad in winter driving, and with the turbo it performs well at high altitudes. It excels and saves you money if you drive a lot of miles (and more so if you like manuals - perhaps something to think about for mntgl?).

    Well, it's one of my contenders (as are the 1.8t gas version, the A4, and the Forester turbo).

    - D
  • baggs32baggs32 Member Posts: 3,229
    "Not even the Liberty?"

    According to Edmunds, the Liberty Renegade has 6.4 inches of ground clearance and the other trims have 7.9 inches. That's right on par with the others if you go by this site. Escape is listed at 7.8, Forester at 7.4, Santa Fe at 8.1, and the VUE at 8.

    Different sites will have different numbers, but not by much. So it all depends on how big the rocks are.

    "I think once again, the Liberty stands out above the rest of this class."

    It does when it comes to getting out of a slippery situation. All the others would need towed out of some situations that the Liberty drive system can handle with ease.
  • mtngalmtngal Member Posts: 1,911
    I did go to a VW dealership a while ago to look at a Jetta Diesel (the diesel is a definite attraction). The only wagon (without the diesel) they had was higher priced than I wanted to go, I didn't think the seats were all that comfortable vs. price, and we got ignored by the salesmen (we asked if they had a TDI wagon on the lot, the guy disappeared and didn't come back for over a half hour. Someone else took notice of us finally). Not a nice experience - just as bad as a couple of Toyota dealerships I've been to.

    The other thing is the 2WD aspect, requiring either chains or snow tires, and a shovel early in the morning, or doing what I do now, driving the Wrangler on winter days (which isn't a bad thing at all).
  • paisanpaisan Member Posts: 21,181
    No offense but in offroad situations I don't care what the "numbers" say, the liberty is going to be the best choice of this group being discussed and I don't like the liberty all that much. The ground clearance issue is due to the solid rear axle, which if you are climbing over rocks and what not will not effect you as much as other low-slung items as muffler, front and rear overhangs, rocker panels, etc.

    -mike
  • anonymous02anonymous02 Member Posts: 1,538
    "...a VW Jetta TDI (wagon). With snow tires or all-seasons it's not too bad in winter driving, and with the turbo it performs well at high altitudes"

    Last thing I want in the snow is for a turbocharger to kick in!
  • paisanpaisan Member Posts: 21,181
    I don't think that TDIs kick in the same way as a Petro Turbo. TDIs generally have the turbo engaged from almost the get-go.

    -mike
  • clever1clever1 Member Posts: 123
    baggs32: According to the 2003 brochure, 2x4 Liberties have 9.5" running ground clearance, and 4x4 Liberties have 8.9" running ground clearance; and specifications for approach, deparature and breakover angles are respectively 36, 31.5, and 21.8 degrees. There is no distinction between trims. Perhaps someone from Edmunds can explain how they spec things differently.

    Eyeballing many variations of each of these vehicles on the road and in parking lots, the Santa Fe looks to be the one with the lowest clearance, and the Liberty the tallest with everything else in between. Also, the Liberty doesn't have the spindly suspension pieces many alternatives use, probably to compensate for the lack of a solid axle in the rear.
  • vin_weaselvin_weasel Member Posts: 237
    ...but don't forget about a low-range transfer case. No other vehicles in this class besides the liberty and xterra have one. I'm not a fan of the liberty either, but it is the best off-roader in this class based on drivetrain and suspension set up.
  • baggs32baggs32 Member Posts: 3,229
    I agree that the Liberty is the best off-roader. By a lot. That's one of the reasons we didn't buy one. It just isn't necessary for what we wanted the SUV for.

    Our Escape is perfect for the beaches of the OBX and the snow of the Northeast. I would not take it on the Rubicon trail for fear of damaging something.

    clever1,
    The 2X4 Liberty may have an advantage in ground clearance, but it would be best not to take it off-road for other obvious reasons. The Escape has been listed on other sites to have more ground clearance (9 point something) too. Edmunds gets their Escape data from the Ford web site which ironically seems to be wrong in some places.

    In summary, the Liberty is the clear winner when it comes to off-road capability and I don't think anyone will argue with that. If you really really want a great off-road vehicle, there are better choices in the Liberty's price range (which is a little higher than the rest in this bunch once you start adding options) in my opinion.
  • anonymous02anonymous02 Member Posts: 1,538
    "If you really really want a great off-road vehicle, there are better choices in the Liberty's price range (which is a little higher than the rest in this bunch once you start adding options) in my opinion."

    I'd be interested in seeing this list. I am researching now, and it is getting narrowed to Liberty, Trooper, or Grand Cherokee. Durango was close, but is out.
  • paisanpaisan Member Posts: 21,181
    Liberty
    Trooper
    Grand Cherokee
    Montero
    Montero Sport
    Rodeo
    Extera
    Pathfinder
    4 Runner

    That is about my list for yah Anon.

    -mike
  • anonymous02anonymous02 Member Posts: 1,538
    pathfinder out due to no frame, 4runner out due to too small/too expensive.

    I need to look at the Montero though, haven't really seen one up close and personal.
  • baggs32baggs32 Member Posts: 3,229
    "Liberty
    Trooper
    Grand Cherokee
    Montero
    Montero Sport
    Rodeo
    Extera
    Pathfinder
    4 Runner"

    Don't forget the Freelander. I was mostly thinking of the Exterra, PF, and 4Runner but the others are pretty good choices too I guess.
  • tincup47tincup47 Member Posts: 1,508
    Unibody vehicles can be just as offroad capable as a framed vehicle. With new technologies, the Unibodies can be made stiffer than a comparable Frame, deliver much better on-road driving, and still be exceptional off road.
  • anonymous02anonymous02 Member Posts: 1,538
    Yeah, but what about towing? I'd rather not stress the unitbody with a boat.

    Thanks, though.
  • vin_weaselvin_weasel Member Posts: 237
    but I'd move the 4 Runner up to under the Grand Cherokee. The reason being we have very few Izuzu's around here and I can't offer a comparison. I'd put the Wrangler up on top, but I don't think that's really a vehicle in this class.

    If I was buying a new off-road vehicle it'd be a Wrangler (I could afford) or an '03 Disco (with some hefty payments) or a G-500 (in my dreams). However, I'm very happy with my Cherokee and I expect it to last a long time.

    I'm not worried about towing with my unibody vehicle. It does flex under off-camber conditions, but it can flex more times than a comparable body on frame vehicle before it starts to stay that way or develop cracks. There are more "attachment points" when compared to body-on-frame. I've seen a lot of older chevys and fords that look like someone took the ends or corners and bent them up a little or they crab down the street. Both styles are probably going to be enough for anyone on this board unless you are doing some frequent heavy-duty off-roading with lots of flex involved.

    Just some opinions...
  • paisanpaisan Member Posts: 21,181
    If you don't want a unibody you need to knock off all the Jeeps except the Wrangler, the new Montero is also uni-body.

    As Vin Weasel said the G500 is awsome but out of the common man's price range.

    My buddy has a '94 Montero (which is very similar up to 01 IIRC) and it has done some heavy offroading without anything but 34"x12" Goodyear MTRs.

    -mike
  • allhorizonallhorizon Member Posts: 483
    mntgal,

    Too bad about your dealer experience. Some are better than others. And you can order VWs if they don't have your exact model/color on the lot. Edmunds' TMV for the TDI wagon is under 20K, about $21K for the GLS. Personally I like the heated leather seats, but I have velour in my Golf and they are fine, too.

    But you are right about the 2WD, unfortunately the AWD version is not (yet?) available in the US. I also wouldn't want to be bothered with changing to snow tires for a short season of occasional snow. I bet VW would take quite a number of sales away from Subaru if they offered the AWD Jetta wagon here.

    I also like AWD and versatility and am leaning towards the Forester turbo (if and when it comes out). If we get the 2l turbo with variable valve timing available in Japan, it should have great mileage (30 or better mpg mixed driving).

    And mike, you are right, you can't really feel "the turbo kick in" on the TDI. But you can feel the low-end torque :-)

    - D
  • tincup47tincup47 Member Posts: 1,508
    The Jeep Liberty has a maximum towing capacity of 5000 lbs with the 3.7L V6, Automatic trans and required towing package, otherwise it's 2000 lbs. Nissan shows 5000 lbs for the Pathfinder.
  • rshollandrsholland Member Posts: 19,788
    << The Jeep Liberty has a maximum towing capacity of 5000 lbs with the 3.7L V6, Automatic trans and required towing package, otherwise it's 2000 lbs. Nissan shows 5000 lbs for the Pathfinder. >>

    All these require trailer brakes to reach those limits. Most mid-size SUVs, if you're towing without trailer brakes limit you to 1000 pounds. A couple are around 1500-1600 pounds.

    Bob
  • anonymous02anonymous02 Member Posts: 1,538
    Even the Wrangler has a 2000# ceiling.

    I think the Cherokee could tow 5000#.
  • paisanpaisan Member Posts: 21,181
    Anon, almost all towing over 1000lbs requires brakes, and most suvs out of the box w/o tow package are limited to around 2K. I know the Trooper only needs a hitch to tow 5K, not sure of the monty or pathy.

    -mike
  • anonymous02anonymous02 Member Posts: 1,538
    ...in the Wrangler manual.


    I just finished reading quite a diatribe on this here:


    http://jeepsunlimited.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=292953

    It is VERY interesting reading for those who tow, or have arguments for or against it!

  • rshollandrsholland Member Posts: 19,788
    Chevy Blazer: 1000 pounds
    Chevy Trailblazer: 1500 pounds
    Chevy Silverado, Tahoe, Suburban: 2000 pounds
    Jeep Liberty: recommends trailer brakes over 1000 pounds, require trailer brakes if you have ABS.
    Subaru: 1000 pounds
    Pathfinder & Xterra: 1000 pounds
    Tacoma, Sequoia (probably all Toyota SUVs/pickups): 1000 pounds
    Dodge Ram 1500: 1000 pounds

    I could go on, but you get the picture...

    All this info is in the owners manuals. I can vouch for all of the above, as I've checked either the owners manuals, or have seen it indicated in the sales brochures.

    BTW, don't ask any car salesman about this, because 99.9% of them are ignorant of this fact. If you go to a car dealer, ask to see the owners manual of any vehicle in question. Very few car companies even puts this info in their brochures. Land Rover does. So does Chevy&#151;but GMC doesn't!

    Bob
  • ateixeiraateixeira Member Posts: 72,587
    I believe Bob, his research on this specific topic is 2nd to none!

    Unibody designs are fine for off-road and/or towing, the Grand Cherokee is and I think the Liberty is too.

    But yeah, the Lib has the only low range here, and is the only one that can fully lock the front and rear axle together for extended periods. All others allow some slip, and/or overheat if used for a long time. Plus you can get factory skid plates.

    Honestly though, I went to a Jeep Jamboree, and the best Jeeps were towed to the event on a trailer. Once customized for off roading, they simply STINK on pavement. You can't have it all. With those huge tires you lose gearing and have to limp home at slow speeds, knobby tires going Roar-Roar-Roar down the road. Handling is rather scary-tippy, too.

    No thanks. I'd buy a trailer and a pair of dirt bikes well before I'd do that to my daily driver, no matter what it was.

    -juice
  • paisanpaisan Member Posts: 21,181
    Rodeo and Trooper over 1000 or 1500lbs require brakes.

    -mike
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