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Engine Additives
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I have been using them in my Legacy for the past three years. Are they a good oil? Also, are synthetics all that much better than standard oil? I drive a lot of miles everyday, and they are almost all highway miles. I change the oil and filter every 3000 to 4000 miles, and take very good care of my vehicle. So is it worth it? I like to think that I am helping to preserve the life of my engine by doing so. Any reply would be appreciated.
Jim
Pat
Community Leader/Maintenance & Repair Conference
said it before, i'll say it again...
if all these various additives really worked, the major oil manufacturers would put them in their addpack and advertise the heck out of it... the fact that they don't should tell you something...
-Chris
What lubricants offer the best protection for your engine? Full synthetics do. Mainly because they flow better in cold temps, and they maintain their viscosity better in extremely high temps, unlike conentional and synthetic blends do. Stay away from synthetic blends also. None of them contain more than 10% synthetic, so no significant benefit is obtained. You can also run full synthetics longer between oil changes than conventional oils. If you change your conventional oil at 3K, you can run a full synthetic for 5 or 6K, if a good quality oil filter is used.
What's the best oil filters? Recent testing showed that the Mobile 1 and Purilator Pure One were ranked as the best, respectively. And for all those years I'd been using Fram filters. You guessed it, the experts said that Fram filters are garbage.
So, I've stopped using prolong, Fram filters, and I've started using a full synthetic motor oil, and Mobile 1 oil filters. We'll see.
Red Line Synthetic oils have been widely used in Racing Engines. Suppose to be a good product, but I have never used them.
For the miles between changes, I'd say "overkill"! I drive excessive highway miles in upstate New York (Snow and Ice in the winter, and dust in the summer), run synthetic oil and change every 10,000 miles. Have a 4 year old car with 116,000 and have done nothing to motor yet. I think you have to balance the type of driving, condition of driving and miles between changes.
If you change you oil with a good quality oil and filter every 3000 miles you should go and go and go with no problems without the synthetic.
BUT, seeing you have already running it, and have been for 3 years I would hesitate in switching. I seen switching cause consumption increase along with other problems. Maybe you should consider increasing to 6 or 7 thousand between changes. Hope I haven't confused you with my rambling.
Pat
One trucker went 300,000 on one yes one oil change.
My $.02.
Then read what well-known and identifiable expert sources, including independent research laboratories, state universities, major engine manufacturers, and even NASA have to say about them. Follow this link to find out more:
http://www.geocities.com/MotorCity/2195/snakeoil.html
Don't worry, it's a personal web page. The guy's not trying to sell you anything (and neither am I). Just trying to get the educated word out about PTFE and zinc-based oil additives.
Guitarzan
Community Leader/Vans Conference
First off, the product tested was not the additive, but their HP 5W-30 motor oil. In the very short term test (the only one conducted), statistically-significant emissions levels actually went up, not down.
Incidentally, here's a quote from the first paragraph of the EPA report: "The testing reported herein was volunteered and paid for by Worldwide PetroMoly Corporation."
Hmmm... go check out the above snake oil link. I think you'll find it an interesting read.
one more time...
if any of this stuff worked, the major oil manufacturers would put it in their add-pack and advertise the heck out of it. the very fact that they don't should tell people something.
as far as the independent labs, if you look close enough at all their studies, you'll see that they are funded similarly to the epa one listed above.
-Chris
pour it out.
tell me you don't see a difference in how it flows. and it flows just as good after it's old. first time i poured a quart of 15-50 out of a mobil 1 bottle, it sold me.
-Chris
Bob
Let synthetics=top of the line $6000 computer
conventionals=Pentium II
Let automobiles=normal user of computers(just checking e-mail, word processing, spreadsheets)
The normal user can use the Pentium II or the $6000 computer, but how much of the $6000 computer's power is that normal user really going to use if you assume that the normal user doesn't change his behavior?
Same w/ synthetics, how much of the extra lubricating power of synthetics do you really use in automobiles?
I must admit though that I don't have any hard scientific data to support my point(i.e. wear and tear comparisons from conventional v. synthetics)
I wonder if synthetic oils provide a placebo effect... How much wear and tear do you REALLY save over say 300,000 miles if you use a good quality filter and conventional oil compared with using that filter and synthetic throughout that 300,000 miles? If this difference isn't much then obviously conventional oils win out based on cost.
If anyone does have more hard data on this I'd love to see it. I've been learning a lot from this topic so thanks!
i agree that most people never use their p-iii to it's capabilities. 99% of the time, the processor just sits there, waiting for something to do.
but syn isn't like that. it's not sitting there, waiting to use it's capabilities. it's using them all the time.
i've seen enough pictures of the insides of engines that used syn vs. dino to convince me. it's not just wear and tear. it's sludge buildup, etc. too. there's more than one factor involved.
but it's a personal judgment call. you use what you feel comfortable with. frankly, i'm not using it so my engine will go 300K, since i get the "new car jones" before i ever get that far. i'm using it so that i get past the 50-100K mark, that engines like to expire in as well (personal experience there).
-Chris
Obviously most analogies aren't supposed to be completely true. That's why it's "analogous" and not "identical. The only reason I focused on wear and tear was that most things I've read seem to focus on syns reducing wear and tear.
There are definitely a lot of factors involved. I recently got a new car, (I guess it's already been 9 months!) so I'm trying to learn more about this area.
I'm about to graduate college and start the process to becoming a professional engineer and if I learned anything it's that there isn't one right answer to most things. I think I've become less skeptical of synthetic oils from what I've been learning recently but I think until I start making more money I'll have to stick with changing my oil regularly! Thanks
I change oil every 4000 miles, and a new filter everytime. As I previously stated (maybe in another topic...hard to keep up) when my valve covers were removed at 165000, the cylinder head surfaces were clean as new, no sludge at all. However, to be intellectually honest, I never saw the inside of my cylinders, just the top of my heads. I am hoping my Y2K Intrepid will last at least 200000 miles. At 28000 miles yearly, and a 5 yr lease, it better last at least 140000 or it will not last until the final payment. Don't even talk to me about residual...LOL
your host, Bruce
The Toyota Solara is an outstanding car. Its engine should hold up very well with regular oil/filter changes and normal periodic servicing of the cooling system. If you are prepared to spend something extra on assuring long life of the internal engine parts, suggest you consider the use of synthetic oil. Good luck.
if any of the additives worked, the major oil companies would put it in their add packs and advertise the heck out of it. every study that's ever been done that looks on this stuff positively has been funded by the manufacturer of the stuff. many independent studies have been done that point out the damage it does.
as far as conspiracies... "as we all know"... ummm... given the cutthroatness of the car biz... you've been watching too much x-files... paranoia is a bad thing... you can get a 50+mpg gallon car now if you'd like to drive a geo metro...
-Chris
Oh, on a personal side I am not paranoid I do not watch the X-Files I do not believe everything I see or hear (that's why I am doing the research) But I do believe that many companies (including car manufacturers) will not make alliances with certain products or companies because of the fear of stepping on the toes of companies they are currently already in good relations with. Attaching an additive brand to their cars could earn them a few dollars, but upsetting the car manufacturer/oil industry relationship could cost them more money in the long run.
I did find a very interesting article on the expected future of engine lubricants (partially supports my opinion, partially goes against it, take it for what it's worth) http://www.total.com/us/cahier/lubrifiant.html
and, if you double post - delete the second post yourself...
use full syn. stay away from additives.
i don't know what "car manufacturer/oil company" relationship (or conspiracy, as it was earlier referred to) you are talking about. i've seen many interesting theories proposed and advanced on message boards but this one is new to me. perhaps you'd care to enlighten me?
and (in relation to the above), what would the oil companies have to lose in putting it in their addpack if it really worked? c'mon.
you asked for an opinion, you got it. you also advanced a somewhat questionable "conspiracy theory" and said "we all know..." associated with it. you got a response to that as well. sorry if it offended you.
-Chris
I have read the entire article and I agree, it sounds like the additives may be useless in engines and could possibly clog up a filter. I do agree with it and I most likely will just use a good synthetic (Thanks all for the advice).
But I am going to play devils advocate just a bit. If I just came up with a new product that sounded like it had outrageous benefits, no one would buy it with out some sort of "proof". Now I bet I wouldn't have outside researchers beating down my door to do the research for me so I would probably have to pay someone to do it for me. Could I persuade them to skew the results? Possibly. But could they also give the results they felt were correct? Possibly. The link I put above is the only study I have found (on this site and throughout the Internet) and I would love it if I could get my hands on other studies. Also the study mentioned above was done in 1992. DuraLube was not mentioned in the study and I don't know if it was even out then. But 8 years is a long time for possible advancements and so I didn't know if there were any "good" engine additives out there. That was my whole point for asking the question at the start.
And the word "conspiracy" was never used by me. I'll agree I used "as we all know" and that was my fault for saying that because it was incorrect.
And Sorry about the oil company/car manufacturer ideas, it's just my opinion. I do have a few links that talk about how closely the two work together. Once again, take it for what it's worth.
http://www.heritage.org/library/categories/enviro/bg825.html
http://www.gasandoil.com/goc/news/nte82608.htm
http://www.purvingertz.com/ogj071299.html
Most of these articles are rather lengthy (like this post and I apologize for that) but they mainly talk about how the two groups are working together to lower pollution levels. Now this has nothing to do with additives but it does show how close the two groups are. That's all my earlier post was mean to say. I also have more articles if people are interested.
(militec-1)
that being said...
if they are working together to reduce pollution levels, it's kinda counterintuitive that they would be withholding an engine that got greater mpg.
in the business world, many disparate groups work together towards a common goal (like in this example, lower pollution levels). that doesn't preclude them from making other alliances to make a buck. as a general matter of fact, they would. they have a responsibility to their shareholders (no altruism there, the ceo wants to keep his job). also, if 2 groups are shutting another out, we have these neat little anti-trust laws in the us.
independent research is the only research that is worth a darn.
lastly, no one has yet posted any type of rebuttal to the simplest fact i keep bringing up. if this stuff worked, why don't the major oil producers put it in their product? it's a cutthroat world out there. why wouldn't they take advantage of something that worked?
anyway... i wouldn't put it in my car. but you should feel free to do so. good luck.
-Chris
Fram PTFE filters
i wouldn't use it. note that they make no claims as to the effectiveness of ptfe. just "for those who like to use teflon based additives".
-Chris
"Why don't major oil producers put it in their product?"
That's not really a great rebuttal. (Please don't take this offensively) Logically, you're saying that you know all the reasons that they don't. There could be a multitude of reasons such as it costs too much to put it in and if they raised the price of their oil people might not buy it for fear that it's gimmicky could be one reason. There can be just as many reasons for why they don't place additives as there are reasons for why they could.
But, I do agree with you in that I think I would like to see some more evidence before I jump on the additive bandwagon.
logically, i'm saying the marketplace moves on "new" "improved" "better" and so on. the way to nirvana when you are marketing a product that is essentially the same as the next guys (and let's face it, all the major brands are essentially the same, with minor differences in addpacks that 99.9% of consumers couldn't tell you) is product differentiation (and brand loyalty, but that's a sociological issue).
as far as price pressures, it could be marketed as a separate type. there's enough of us out here who pay 4 bucks a quart for mobil 1. if independent research was shown that product x that had additive y in it was better, it would sell.
btw, i'm not offended.
-Chris
Synthetic oil makes sense if you live in a extremely cold climate-like northern MN or Canada. Also if you really push an engine to the redline, then synthetic makes sense. If not, use a good quality dino oil and quality filter-see the filter study. Have 92K on my current accord-my old one has over 250K and is not burning oil.
Agree with you 100% on your comments regarding use of synth oil.