Engine Additives

bottgers · March 2000

The issue doesn't seem to be whether or not synthetic is better than crude, it seems to be, how much better is it.

If you plan on putting several hundred thousand miles on a car, synthetic will make quite a bit of a difference. I own two cars. A '66 Chevy Bel-Air and a '98 Intrepid. The Chevy is an old junker that I use to drive back and forth to work. I only plan to keep it a couple more years, so it gets an oil and filter change once a year, and it gets crude. The Intrepid, on the other hand, was purchased new, and we plan on keeping it for quite some time. I want nothing but the best engine protection for the Intrepid, so it gets synthetic. If you want the absolute best protection for your engine, use synthetic. It will make difference in the long run.

rs_petty · March 2000

That wouldn't happen to be a 2 door Bel-Air, would it?

shekharpatel · March 2000

I plan to use my Odyssey van, maybe once a fortnight (excluding the long trips). The wagon is in the garage rest of the time. My question is:
What should be my maintainance schedule
What precautions I should take to prolong the life of the van.
All help will be appreciated

johnyoo · March 2000

I asked my service advisor about this cause I was going to be away for a few months and he said:
-disconnect the battery so you stop it from discharging

-get an oil change roughly every 3-5 months

-(personal idea) I think the gas tank shouldn't be full but at least halfway. I don't know what the coeff. of thermal expansion for gas is so I don't know if this is a moot point or not

bottgers · March 2000

rs petty
Sorry, my Bel-Air is a 4 door.

shekharpatel
Look at the maintenance section of your owner's manual. It should have two maintenance schedules, schedule A and Schedule B. One of them will require more frequent maintenance. For example, schedule A may require that you change your oil and filter every 3,000 miles, whereas schedule B may require you to change your oil and filter every 7,500 miles. Look at the schedule that recommends the most frequent maintenance, and if any of your driving conditions match any of the driving conditions listed in this schedule, follow it. If not, follow the less restrictive schedule. These schedules make determining when something needs to be done very easy. Follow them and you'll get the most out of your vehicle.

marsha7 · March 2000

do not go too long between oil changes. If 3000 miles takes you more than four months to accumulate, change oil and filter every 3 to 4 months, regardless of the miles driven. Thia will apply with crude. Maybe the synthetic guys (the oil, not referring to them personally--LOL) have a different view.

bottgers · March 2000

Good point marsha7. Acids can accumulate in the oil over time, whether the vehicle is driven or not. 3 or 4 months is a good change interval for conventional oil, longer if you use synthetic.

ccotenj · March 2000

bob, i about fell out of my chair when i read that...

i like the "synthetic guy" nom de plume...

i agree though. no more than 4 months for dino juice, you can probably safely go a year with syn. that's my schedule on my pickup truck.

-Chris

rs_petty · March 2000

tomsr · March 2000

Late night TV infomercials are claiming all kinds
of miracles if you use their particular product.
Has anybody actually used these and are they worth
it.I figure if it worked it would not have to be
advertised but word of mouth would sell it.
Anybody want to drain their oil and test these?

ladder1 · March 2000

Reading through some of the responses for the questions on oil change intervals it is interesting to see that some people recommend the oil change interval of every 3,000 to 4,000 miles or every 3-4 months. Your owners manual in the maintenance section describes under severity of use the recommended oil change intervals. In the manuals that I have read under average use the manufacturer recommends 7,500 mile oil change intervals. My 96 Dodge Ram manual recommends changing the oil filter on every second oil change depending on the severity of use.

I work as a firefighter and addressed this oil change interval to our apparatus coordinator who schedules the preventive maintenance on our fleet of apparatus. I was informed that our city maintenance garage conducts oil quality surveys periodically from various city vehicles that range from police cars, fire engines, and sanitation trucks. These oil analysis are performed more frequently on the larger diesel engines versus the smaller gas engines such as in pick ups and police cars. Anyway, to make a long story short they discovered that the engine oil on the gas engines was only slightly contaminated in the range of 20%-30% capacity of deposits. At the 7,500 mile mark the oil was still around 50%-60% contaminated. The way the contamination level was explained to me was that oil can maintain it's lubricating, anti foaming, and detergent qualities only for so long and these properties become less effective as the by products of combustion are absorbed by the detergents in the oil.

So why do we change our oil at 3,000 mile intervals when even at 7,500 miles or more the engine oil is not yet fully saturated with harmful contaminants, only 50%-60% saturation.

I was informed that an engine oil analysis is not that expensive and most large diesel engine repair facilities offer this service. It will also inform you of any abnormal engine wear problems, or contamination of fuel and engine coolant in the system.

karluvver · March 2000

I am a retired mechanic and my attitude is: follow the manufactures recommendations. I figure they know more about their products than anyone else. There is a lot of money wasted by changing oil too frequently.

marsha7 · March 2000

I am a little confused. You refer to the oil being "only 50-60% contaminated." Why would we want to wait until it is 100% CONTAMINATED? Would it not be good preventive maintenance to discard the oil at 15,20, or 25% contaminated? Just the thought of 100% contamination makes me shudder in my boots. The measly 5 quarts of oil is the ONLY thing that you can do to help the internal parts of your engine. Why take it to the breaking point? Do I misunderstand you?

Further, numerous owners manuals state to change the oil filter every other change, yet any person who can open the hood knows that if you keep the old filter, you will place one quart of dirty oil back in your engine, while cranking your starter, before the engine starts. This is one recommendation where I just have a problem believing that "the manufacturer knows best." The manufacturer does know that they want you to buy another car from them ASAP. One way to accelerate the process is to have you keep one quart of old oil .....................

shekharpatel · March 2000

regarding the frequency of oil changes. What are the "acids" that are formed by "exposure of oil to atmosphere. Can someone provide authentic references that proves this phenomenon. How do you measure the pH of motor oil? Can you partition out the acids by aqueous extraction of the oil...and then measure the pH (as well as conductivity for salt concentration). Any help to illuminate this greasy problem is welcome. Thanks.

garth · March 2000

i'm sure someone can do better at this than me, but here's a shot:
sulfur is a common impurity in gasoline. one byproduct of combustion of hydrocarbons is H20 - water. so, i'd expect some sulfuric acid floating around in there.

is that a good guess? anyone?

marsha7 · March 2000

I believe that is a GREAT guess! A superb guess! Possibly the BEST guess I have ever read!!! Whether it is CORRECT or not, I don't have the slightest idea. But as a guess, that ranks up there with some of the best guesses of the Millenium. LOL-could not pass up the chance!!!

Bob

cygnusx1 · March 2000

Here's an interesting website. The car used to test the oil was a Supra, but the results are interesting. Mobil 1 seems to come out on top.

http://cjsupra.kendra.com/oil-spec.html#3DPlot

protravel · April 2000

Even though as part of my service contract, with the dealer, I got free oil changes. I only used Mobil 1 and my Expedition ran as smooth as silk.
Well, one service trip the shop decided on their own to change my oil ( without me asking ) since it was part of the contract. Not one to waste an oil change, I did the 3000 miles with the "normal" oil. It was the worst 3000 miles I drove with the truck. I got home from the trip, got rid of that crap, and put Mobil1 back in, and again I had the smoothest running truck.
Scientific, not at all. Real world experience.
My .02

protravel · April 2000

http://www.militec-1.com/marylandtransprt2.pdf

arjay1 · April 2000

I have used most major brands of oil, both conventional and synthetic. I can honestly say that I have never been able to feel a difference in the way any of my cars have performed. I find it very hard to believe that anyone could tell the difference between conventional and synthetic oil in an engine under a blind test. A difference may be able to be detected on start-up under very cold conditions but I am not even convinced of that.

lotusman · April 2000

As my monoker says, I have a Lotus Esprit. Having an actual temperature gauge for the coolant and living in Louisiana heat and traffic, it was easy to monitor engine lubrication effectiveness. It is well known with the mid-engine design that heat build is a problem. After a year of this hitting the 95 C temp range it was time to do a test. Being a Chem E, experimentation is my thing. Seeing the infomercials about Prolong , I tested it. I put the needed doses in my transaxle and then in the engine. The results showed that my transaxle was producing the high temp condition. The temp has never made it above the normal 82.5 C operating range. No further improvement was noted after putting in the engine. The only positive result with the use in the engine will be when your reaching the 200,000 mile range or if you choose to keep the car a long time. Also if you start and stop the engine often, that first few seconds when oil is not yet flowing, the residual coating on the metal walls of cylinders and turbo bearings extend the life of the engine. Don't ask how much my engine costs to replace, but the oil pan is $1200!

The Valvoline full synthetic oil that is recommended by Lotus which I put in the transaxle had an unexpected benefit. After taking out the natural oil which the previous BMW dealer had put in and using the synthetic, the half shaft seals which had been leaking, stopped leaking.

I have also had experience with natural oils in my plant compressors foaming and causing eventual failure. Synthetics will not foam. I also did the test you see with Mobil 1 against the Valvoline and Castrol synthetics. All of these were better than the natural oil. The Mobil 1 smoked and darkened. The other two smoked but retained their light yellow color. I was impressed. I had read a letter in R&T that some people had been having problems in BMW's with the Castrol synthetic which has a 5W rating. Is there anyone out there who can confirm this problem?

protravel · April 2000

Using a Kubota Farm tractor, as a test and
assuming similar ambient temps, I would start the cold tractor, warm it up at 1200 rpm for 10 minutes.
Then drive it in high range wide open at 2500 rpm the 1.2 miles to a pretty steep hill I have on my road, then climb the hill in high range with the pedal depressed as far as I could without the rpm dropping below 1500 rpm.Back down the hill, and repeat the climb three times. Measure the
temperature of the HST line at the input side of the oil cooler with an infrared thermometer with a laser spotting sight at the top of the hill after the third ascent. Do the whole thing twice and average the temps.
Here's what I got: With Conventional lubricants, the temperature was 146 degrees. With
Amsoil synthetic, the temperature was 127 degrees. The ambient temperature was 7 degrees warmer when I tested the synthetic. Draw your own conclusions,
if you have any desire to. I've drawn my own and am keeping them to myself so no one has anything to argue with me about.
I'm not an AMSOIL person, just one satified customer.

oldharry · April 2000

I am not an engineer, but I have been a mechanic for over forty years. Today is the first time I visited this conference, and I went to the snake oil web site. The Briggs and Straton results of cylinder wall damage with teflon containing additives is something I have seen in the field. A rep from an auto manufacturer told me (while he was disallowing a warranty claim on an engine) that cast iron (and cast aluminum) is used in cylinder walls because it is porous, and absorbs oil. The absorbed oil feeds back to the surface and provides lubrication when tiny spots are missed by the splash in any particular piston stroke. Plastic additives in "coating" the cylinder walls clog the pores and prevent oil lubrication that is superior to slippery plastic. I avoid particle containing additives for this reason.

Harry

spectre3 · April 2000

more snake oil? or does it work..

has anybody tried it???

thanks,

lee

anonymous · April 2000

go to silverado topic in pickups towards the end.
ask LURD about this stuff. he'll be able to
answer your question.

red

mmcsw · April 2000

I live in Michigan's Upper Peninsula and at least once a winter the thermometer goes to 20 below or lower. Synthetic oils make a noticeable difference in the speed that your motor turns over when the starter is cranking, resulting in a quicker start. As far as longevity is concerned, I don't know how much a difference synthetics make, but the cold start difference is quite apparent at sub zero temps. The new 0W-30 weight is on the store shelves now and I'll probably try that next winter.

raychuang00 · April 2000

After reading all the comments about the fact that oil additives don't work, the best solution is this: change your oil AND oil filter every 3000 to 3750 miles or every three months, whichever comes first.

Some things to consider though:

1. Make VERY sure the oil you get is SAE SJ-rated. Using anything less will void your engine warranty if your car suffers an oil-related engine problem.

2. Try to get an oil with a decent temperature range. I'd recommend at minimum 5W-30 rating, especially for today's small cars with their hotter-running engines. I should know--my Honda Civic HX CVT coupe runs quite warm.

3. Try to get the best brand of oil you can afford. I've used Quaker State "Clearbase" 5W-30 SJ oil with pretty good results.

marsha7 · April 2000

Worthy words, and if I may add something to your #3. To make things easy, ANY namebrand oil with an SJ rating will suffice. While we all have our favorite brand(s), Quaker, Pennzoil, Valvoline, Kendall, Castrol, Havoline, will all do a good job, as long as you use the correct weight (5W-30 seems to be a good year-round weight for most) and have the correct SAE rating.

raychuang00 · April 2000

Marsha,

I myself will stay with the big brands, mostly because the better brands tend to have most consistent quality oil, especially on a car that revs around 2900-3300 rpm in freeway driving. Also, it's because I can get Quaker State and Pennzoil most everywhere. ;-)

marsha7 · April 2000

It's kind of like the way I buy gasoline. Any major brand (Amoco, Shell, BP, etc) will usually have good gas, and so will the major hi-volume chains (Quik-Trip, Racetrack, etc.).

But, the single, low volume station, "Harry's Cheap Gas" located at the end of the dirt road since 1948, I might be hesitant to buy gas for my new car. My 1948 tractor, however, might be different (LOL).

armtdm · May 2000

I never believed the claims about extended drain intervals so I gradually worked my way up from 3,000 mile changes ( oil analysis every time) to now 1 year between changes on two cars and 7,500 on two others. The wear metals and pollutants (dirt etc.) are basically the same parts per million at 3,000 miles and 10,000 miles. I use Amsoil but Mobil 1 also good. You must use a high quality filter, my analysis does prove a difference. Fram is crap. Mobil 1 or Amsoil or Pure One only. Still fluid at minus 60 degress and protects better in all heat ranges. Worth the $4/qrt cost by far, fewer changes and better protection

pilko · May 2000

I grew up in the UK and I am used to the oil change intervals for European cars such as VW, AUDI and SAAB. They are in the 10,000 to 12,000 mile range. Now I live in the US I am astounded by the 3,000 mile intervals recommended by US manufacturers. I had one VW car passed 140,000 miles and another at 110,000. Both started out at 10,000 mile service intervals but I relaxed a bit to 15,000 to 20,000 mile intervals. I always used Mobil 1. I never detected any degradation in the performance, economy or oil consumption of the engines. Mobil recommend intervals of 25,000 miles or 1 year. I did have to replace a head gasket at 135,000 miles on one car and the cylinder bore looked perfect. No visible wear and very clear hone marks.

I read an early independant test of Mobil 1 and the distance interval limit was based on the build up of combustion particles in the oil and not on the breakdown of the oil. It was also stated that when a special fine oil filter is used the interval can be extended up to 60,000 miles. The summary said that it is far better to use a high quality synthetic oil changed infrequently than to use a conventional oil that is changed regularly.

I get the feeling that this 3000 mile idea is designed to rip off car owners.

mac24 · May 2000

I used to feel the same way until I priced up the cost of oil and a filter over here compared to back in the UK. Cheap at twice the price! I change my oil and filter myself every three thousand miles, which seems to come around every three months. Costs about $8 for quality brand name oil and filter, which to me is a great price for peace of mind.

0patience · May 2000

Bear in mind when you decide to extend your service(oil change) intervals,that if you go beyond the manufacturer's recommended services(even with synthetics),that they can void the warranty on you.If you buy a vehicle and choose to use a synthetic oil and extend the intervals past the recommended services and you happen to get a bad engine,you WILL eat the costs,because they WILL ask for the service records and as soon as they see the extended intervals,they will void the warranty and you will be stuck with a very large bill.Something to consider.

arjay1 · May 2000

I believe it is up to the Dealer to prove that you did not service the vehicle according to the manufacturers guidelines, not up to you to prove that you did!
I think this has been addressed before. A dealer cannot void your warranty based on the grounds that you cannot provide service records of every oil change and routine maintenance. I have had major transmission and engine work done under warranty and a dealer never asked me to provide proof that all scheduled maintenance had been completed.

arjay1 · May 2000

I drive a 1999 Land Rover Discovery Series II. When the literature on this redesign of the Discovery came out it addressed the service intervals of the reworked V8. The literature mentioned that oil changes are now required every 12,000 miles rather than 7500. However, when I received the vehicle, the oil change recommendations are back to 7500 miles. Did the 12,000 mile drain interval came from the accepted spec's in Europe given that this is a British vehicle? Just curious!

tpmiller1 · May 2000

standardized their manuals some time back, and kept the european 7,500 oil change in the U.S sold vehicles. Americans didn't listen, still changed at 3k, so VW gave up and changes U.S. manuals back to 3k, but continue to insist 7.5K changes are the real standard.

marsha7 · May 2000

I could never change metric to US and vice-versa, but is it possible that the 12,000 refers to kilometers and the 7,500 refers to miles?

Bob

tboner1965 · May 2000

0patience · May 2000

If the failure is an oil related failure(meaning a journal became plugged from machining waste or something along those lines),they can and probably will ask to see the service records.And YES,it is up to you to provide proof of servicing and if you can't,then they can void the warranty.Not often,but they can.Read the warranty papers carefully,you will find that they state it in there.

arjay1 · May 2000

I have read the warranty papers extensively and they specifically state that all maintenance schedules are "recommended", never mandated.
I have never seen it written that all service records need to be provided in order to qualify for warranty work.

0patience · May 2000

Well,my GM warranty states under the Exclusion part,FOR ANY BREAKDOWN CAUSED BY MISUSE,ABUSE,NEGLIGENCE,LACK OF NORMAL MAINTENANCE REQUIRED BY THE MANUFACTURER'S MAINTENANCE SCHEDULE FOR YOUR VEHICLE,OR IMPROPER SERVICING.

Now,you can read that any way you want.
Also,if you have a extended service contract,you will find a phrase included in it,stating:

It is required that verifiable reciepts be retained for the service work.Maintenance and/or service work reciepts may be requested.

I found this phrase in most of the major manufacturer's service contracts.

pilko · May 2000

The European oil change intervals for VW and Audi are in miles (10,000) SAAB is also in miles (12,000). I am not sure on the warranty side but VW say you should (must?) use oil approved not just to an API standard but to their own specification. I think the specification numbers are something like VW 500 and VW 501.

jackal4464 · May 2000

I just purchased a new ford ranger, and I was talking to the service manager, and he told me that I need to provide reciepts for my oil ad filter purchases, so they can in fact prove that I did do the preventive maintance on my vechicle, and he also told me that they did in fact void the warranty on a truck that had 20k on it cause the person couldn't provide documentation that he had in fact done maintance on his truck. the engine threw a rod, and instead of fixxin the problem he traded the truck in, I only know of what ford motor company done on this particular instance, I have not talked to other dealers since I don't own one of thier products..... so I guess the best thing to do is keep a log book on the vechicle, so there can not be any question......

I kept a log on the truck I trdaded in, and the dealer was impressed that I had a history on the truck so they gave me more money for the trade in..since they knew that I took good care of the vechicle.

rob

pat455 · May 2000

I think the log book is an excellent idea, rob. EVERYONE is impressed by something like that, along with the receipts, when you go to sell your vehicle whether privately or as a trade-in.

Pat
Community Leader/Maintenance & Repair Conference

marsha7 · May 2000

Ordinarily, I can appreciate the logbook for certain things, but I would assume ( maybe wrongly) that the logbook would not be worth a hill of beans if it is not backed up by receipts for the oil, filter, etc. To just put in logbook every 3000 miles, "Changed oil and filter today," but no receipts for oil & filter, just does not seem "legitimate" to me, or, I would think, a car dealer. Thoughts?

pat455 · May 2000

I agree -- that's why I said "along with the receipts".

:-)

Pat
Community Leader/Maintenance & Repair Conference

tpmiller1 · May 2000

for my '93 tempo with 145k on it, so I expect to make a bundle on a private sale. I figure each receipt is worth about $1.25 so I'm lookin' at a minimum of a $400.00 sale, $425.00 if she starts right up, and $475.00 if I can find that log book LOL.

pat455 · May 2000

Shoot, the log book's worth more'n that. Probably worth more'n that Tempo, come to think of it!

Pat
Community Leader/Maintenance & Repair Conference

marsha7 · May 2000

Sorry about that omission by my aging eyes. It just goes to prove that old adage: just because I am educated, does not mean that I can read..LOL

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