Check Engine light

fleetwoodsimca · March 2003

Problem is, I don't know what I mean, either! The hand held units I see advertised are at Checker and Autozone stores, as I recall. They are surely OBDII, I would think. I am led to believe that with enough knowledge and effort, one can set up a PC computer and acquire a cable to attach to diagnostic plugs, I assume. In my case, purchasing a "ready made" would be far simpler, but determining adequacy is a problem for us that are not well versed in electronic diagnosis.

0patience · March 2003

We've tested several units that are ready made.
You install the software, plug in the cable and navigate the program.
Most are pretty self explanitory.
See for yourself.

CarCode PC based Scanner
Auterra Palm based Scanner
AutoTap PC based scanner
Ford Palm based scanner

fleetwoodsimca · March 2003

Great! I will check out your hypertext clickables and enjoy! Thank you!

rd_volvo · March 2003

Got my first CEL 12 days ago. Reset it 6
days ago and it came on again today.

Got my NY state inspection days before.
How coincidental!

Has anyone here heard of anyone fixing their
CEL by getting a new gas cap? Thinking about
trying that first.

If that doesn't work I'm going to have to
go out and get a code reader.

ty

rd

99 c70

rd_volvo · March 2003

I did some reading in this discussion last night
and read that if you reset the CEL by disconnecting the battery the CEL will only come
back on a short time later as this trick does not
actually clear the codes on newer cars.

Is this correct?

That's what I did as per my post above.

ty

rd

swschrad · March 2003

you have to hook up a code reader and issue a type 4 request, which clears the codes.

so all roads point towards your getting the codes read, consider what needs to be done, and then clear 'em after service.

autozone and many CSK stores will read your codes as a sales tool to help sell renewal parts. but the code results don't come out as, "EVIL! buy everything near this spot we have in stock right now, will that be cash or check?" the codes indicate a subsystem that should be checked with further diagnostics to determine what needs to be done.

detailed manuals like Mitchells, the OEM service manual, or Alldata will have the diagnostic trees the codes refer to.

rd_volvo · April 2003

Keeping my fingers crossed.

A few weeks ago my 99 Volvo's CEL came on. [ Check old post ]
On a hunch I mail ordered a new gas cap thinking my original one is getting old and popped it in last thursday.

Went to get gas Saturday and WaLah, when I started the car the CEL went out and has been out ever since.

It may be a good idea to change all your fluid
caps and seals every three years or so. Gas, Oil, Coolant, Etc.

Hope this tip helps other motorist's in the future.

rd

99 c70

wadeway · April 2003

Happy Wednesday !
I have a 2001 Chevy Silverado 4 x 4 1500.
I have 60000 miles and now when I fill up with gas the gauge reads empty and the low on fuel warning comes on. the guage doesnt read correct until 30 miles or more.
I appreciate your help.

Wade

fleetwoodsimca · April 2003

Sounds like an expensive problem inside the gas tank. Perhaps the sending unit in the tank is faulty. Replacing it may be the answer.

camshaft1 · April 2003

i didn't read every single post but, i had the same problem with my 95 m3 equiped with obd1. no computer needed and it told me it was the O2 sensor. recently i saw the same problem with a 91 berretta that constantly stalled. i found that it was a vaccuum leak off the throtle body. so i suggest you poke around the hood.

camshaft1 · April 2003

also, if you've had any raidiator service or leaks. air pockets in the system can cause it to come on as well.

chestnut2 · April 2003

My 1998 e150 /4.2l v6 has code misfire on cylinder no.6 have changed plugs, wires ,injector coilpack and computor, problem still exists any ideas.

alcan · April 2003

Use propane or acetylene to check for an intake gasket leak causing a lean misfire. Btw, are you sure about the engine being a 4.2 in an E150? What's the 8th digit of the VIN?

chestnut2 · April 2003

To alcan.eight digit is#2 .ford diagnosed problem originally said i needed wires ,waterpump was leaking occasionally,to replace pump they said they were going to replace manifold gasket .I questioned this but got no answer ,they quoted almost $1000 to replace pump and wires ,I decided to do it myself,How do i test for intake leak with gas? chestnut2.

alcan · April 2003

Open the valve on a propane or acetylene torch (don't light it), then move the tip around the intake manifold/head joint with the engine idling. If there's an intake gasket leak the idle speed will change when the combustible gases are drawn in.

fleetwoodsimca · April 2003

Thanks for the great diagnostic procedure, above! I would assume propane is the better choice. Any thought on that?

alcan · April 2003

Pretty much any flammable gas will do it. I use acetylene because the "hot wrench" (torches) are usually more handy where I work. Leave the air cleaner or air intake ducting in place if possible to avoid having any transient air currents drawing gases into the throttle body and giving false indications of vacuum leaks.

fleetwoodsimca · April 2003

...firing up a laboratory torch I had connected to a bottle of acetylene with surgical hose. The room quickly looked like fallout from a big volcano was settling through the air! The particulate in the air was formed by incomplete burning of the acetylene. And OH! what a mess to clean up. {;^]

swschrad · April 2003

we had a "big bertha" in the hospital, if you used it outside it really barked as the wind flapped the fire out, it was actually quite dangerous. if you just used it to make smoke, that was one thing, but turning on the oxygen was something different entirely, and when you hit the oxygen bypass to start cutting, that was some awesome tank-drainer. but if you happened to catch a gust in the open, danger will robinson!

oh, surgical hose also seems like something I'd not want wrapped around my arm cutting a bolt off....

chestnut2 · April 2003

thanks for info on manifold leak check,tried test over weekend could not find any change in idle .light still on misfire still present i,m fustrated feel like filling whole van with propane and lighting match Anyone have any other sujestions?.

fleetwoodsimca · April 2003

Ever hear the term, blevy? During my years attached to the Coast Guard, that term came up from time to time. It has to do with the phenomenon of a compressed gas escaping as a liquid from the tank holding it, and igniting just prior to expanding into a gas. Holy Moly, Captain Marvel! The power of such a conflagration is enormous. Well, I won't suggest such for your car... >:o]

maurcedes · May 2003

I have a 95 Mercedes E320 wagon which I bought with 120K on it. Day I bought it the check engine light came on. Re-set it regularly, by 150,000 it was constant. Bugged the crap out of me for a long time. Car ran fine, started fine, it's an emissions thing, bad EGR valve. About $1000 to fix it. I decided to wait till I needed more significant engine work. Taped a little motivational sticker on there to block it out and decided to accept it. Then at 168K the A/C evaporator went bad. The mechanic had to take the entire dashboard out to fix it. So I made a little visit to check on the work - reached in there and plucked that little baby right out of the socket - no more CEL!

swschrad · May 2003

whatever works, though

you'll miss the next summons to Herr Filchengeld, though...

pmacey · May 2003

Hi Folks:

After our local dealer replaced our head gasket (and valve cover gasket) on our 1998 2.4L Voyager with 52K miles (and being 5 years old: aka past all warranties, though DC Customer Service gave us a reference number allowing only a $200 co-pay for this service), we no sooner drove it home, and the "Service Engine Soon" light came on.

We brought the van back, they scanned it, and it reports as: "upstream O2 sensor stuck on center"

Me thinks they caused this problem with their head gasket/valve gasket repair, as when I turned the key on after picking up the vehicle, I noticed they reset the computer (radio set to 53 AM, clock time was off).

I suspect during their post check of their fix, the MIL was tripped as they some how caused the O2 sensor problem and they reset the computer (aka: PCM) so I wouldn't see the MIL.

Is it normal for them to reset the PCM after a head gasket repair (I think not!).

Thoughts and how to ask tactful Qs re: this to incriminate them?

I think I should follow up with DC Customer Care on this, it is just to coincidental that this MIL occurred after their work, yes?

0patience · May 2003

More than likely, coolant from the head gasket letting loose got into the O2 sensor and ruined it.
It is very common and in some cases has become common to replace the O2 sensor as part of the head gasket replacement.

As part of the repair, the trouble codes should have been checked and cleared.
So no, it is not likely that the O2 sensor is caused by something they did.
But.............
Yes, they should have checked it out and probably replaced the sensor knowing that coolant would damage it.

You're in a tough spot.
Incompetent? I wouldn't think so.
Inexperienced, sounds like it.

alcan · May 2003

To add, Step #1 in most engine repairs is: Disconnect battery.
The clock is going to be off and the radio presets will be lost.

pmacey · May 2003

Thanks for the replies on this. Perhaps I was being too paranoid about some type of "cover up"

I'll probably call DC Customer Care and ask if the O2 sensor should have been replaced during the head gasket repair job and/or if there is any assistance the can offer on the $200 the dealer wants to replace the sensor.

Thanks again!

warrenul · May 2003

The SES indicator lit up on my vehicle approximately 6 months ago. The engine ran smoothly and I did not detect any difference in mileage or performance. Thinking that it was a loose gas cap or that it was due to heavy traffic conditions (prolong idling), I disconnected the battery for 2 minutes to turn SES light off.

It lit up two weeks ago and I reset the light again. However,I did notice that this time, the car was prone to stalling only when depressing clutch and letting up on the gas.

I knew that there was definitely a problem and brought it in to the dealer (SES light remained off). They put it on the OEM Diagnostic machine , however, no DTC codes were stored in the car's ECM control module. They performed a Idle Relearn Procedure and readjusted the idle a bit higher.

After reading extensively on this subject from you guys, I thought that stored DTCs could only be reset using a scanner/diagnostic tool. Otherwise, I think that it would have better to leave the stored codes for the Technician to pull to see if it was related to the stalling condition.

I would have like to confirm that the illuminating of the SES light was directly related to the stalling that I eventually experienced. However,I don't know why it didn't light up when it was kept stalling, or is it possible to have the SES light without storing a hard code?

PS: I am looking to obtain the Equus 3100 OBDII Reader. I think that for the money, its a full featured unit. (Well under $200)

0patience · May 2003

However,I don't know why it didn't light up when it was kept stalling, or is it possible to have the SES light without storing a hard code?
Yes and no.
Sometimes, it is possible for the light to illuminate, but not store a hard code.
That being said, most often, it will store a code, but the scantool being used will not be able to retrieve it. If it is a manufacturer specific code, then most generic scantools will not be able to bring up the trouble code.

For a problem like that, take a look at this one.

Before you decide on the Equus scanner, read this Equus review article.

Then read the rest of the scanner review articles.

We are currently working on a review of Enginemate.com's new scan program. It is the first one we have seen that works off of a Windows CE handheld PC.
The one they sell with it is the Dell Axim.

warrenul · May 2003

Thanks for the great information. The Car Chip looks like a terrific product. I will consider this device if it will run on a M/S XP system. I really like that it stores realtime engine data on the unit for later download and analysis on a PC.

I had previously read B's article on the Equus unit and saw that he gave a favorable review on it. Although the article didn't state whether you also agreed, as the unit tester.

Anyway, the SES lit up on my car again 4 days after getting the car back from the dealer. They told me that a P0420 was stored on the ECU. Although this indicates a problem with the 3 Way Catalyst, they are attributing the MIL indicator to a problem with the car's original ECM program. They are only updating the car with a new ECM program and sending me on my way. (Nissan TSB NTB00070)

I can't imagine that the SES light did not light up after driving the car over 2 and a half years and 40,000 miles. I hope that this resolves the SES problem once and for all.

Thanks for your technical expertise, as always.

swschrad · May 2003

as I read the maker's web page,

http://www.davisnet.com/home_static.asp

it wants 32-bit MS Windows, and the PDF users guide posted specifically says it works with Windows 95 through XP

http://www.davisnet.com/product_documents/drive/manuals/carchip.p- df

so you're in like Flynn.

0patience · May 2003

Don't get me wrong, the Equus is a fine tool.
It will do the things that you are looking to do, but...
Since I try and stay unbiased on these products (not always easy to do) and recommend products that will do the job, for the money, there are other units that will do more.

If you want to only pull the codes, clear the codes and basic emissions diagnosis, then the Equus is the one for you.
It is a great tool that will work great in the "what is the problem?" category.
The next step up is the "why is the problem there?" category. Which is where some of the other scan programs are.

I guess my best recommendation would be, look through and see what the scanners and scan programs can do, then figure out what options you want to be able to use. Then see which ones fit in your budget.

Also, pay particular attention to what can be upgraded and updated.

cutehumor · June 2003

96 pontiac sunfire 2.2 liter 94k miles; need some urgent advice; spark plugs were taken out to be changed to bosch platinum. 3 out of the 4 new spark plugs fit all the way. One doesn't however. they are all the same size plug. I don't get it. I used antiseize on this "stuck" plug. It looks like it is not all the way in when I have turned the plug as much as possible. starting the car is fine, runs fine, but at idle, the RPM are erratic. Now the check engine light has come on. what can I do? any tips or trick? I've changed plugs in other cars before with no problem, but now I do. any advice is greatly appreciated

alcan · June 2003

Carbon buildup on the end of the spark plug thread can sometimes damage the threads in the cylinder head when the plug's removed. Pull the new plug out and inspect for damaged threads (usually the bottom 1 or 2 threads). If there's any damage evident, get a spark plug thread chaser available at any auto supply house to restore the threads for spark plugs and O2 sensors. Coat the chaser with heavy grease to catch any chips, screw it in 1/2 turn, back out 1/4 turn, 1/2 in, until it's all the way through the threads in the head. Remove the chaser every 2 - 3 turns, clean off the grease and chips,and re-grease it. Replace the damaged plug, and don't use compound on the threads, regardless of well-meaning but erronous advice. Below is a direct quote from the Pontiac factory manual, 2.2L engine section:

Important
DO NOT coat the spark plugs with anti seize compound. Over torquing could occur and damage to the cylinder head threads may result.

cutehumor · June 2003

Alcan,

Thanks for the advice, I'm going to head over to auto zone right now if they have any spark plug thread chaser. I still have all four of the old AC41-928 spark plugs, there is alot of motor oil looking grime on the thread of the spark plug and "little" pebbles. is that carbon buildup?

cutehumor · June 2003

it was a bear getting it out but I finally did. My hands are red to prove it. the spark plug last two or three threads are completely gone. it's like the layer of thread came off. I hope the threads in the cylinder block are ok.

cutehumor · June 2003

however, they only had one in stock and it says for use with 13/16" deep socket. I didn't remember what size socket I used on the spark plug so I got it. the counterperson said it should fit the car. but this same person tried to push antiseize compound on me as well. when I got home, I looked at the spark plug socket it says 5/8. time to go see if this thread chaser will fit.

swschrad · June 2003

but at least in automotive uses, I haven't seen anything yet that didn't have the same threading. I don't have a tap for it, so not sure what the diameter/pitch are, but one way to tell is whether it fits the hole. if it's like trying to put a telephone pole sized piece in a drain-sized hole, it can be assumed it won't fit

remember to go slowly and try hard as you can to get the chaser started straight in the hole. if you chase "crooked", the whole thing will be cross-threaded.

if the worst occurs and the engine block threading is too badly stripped or thinned to allow installing and holding a plug, there is a Heli-Coil kit that can put a threaded repair plug into a larger drilled hole.

I have not been there, and strongly suspect the cylinder head would have to come off to catch and clean all the drill and tapping chips from that operation. thus I'd figure on being towed to a shop myself for that operation, as I have not been an engine-opener.

joe3891 · June 2003

>>I have not been there, and strongly suspect the cylinder head would have to come off to catch and clean all the drill and tapping chips from that operation. thus I'd figure on being towed to a shop myself for that operation, as I have not been an engine-opener.<<

If you put grease on the drill and tap it will trap the chips so it can be done installed.A very old mechanics trick.

cutehumor · June 2003

ok, I get the spark plug thread chaser. I use a 13/16 socket, I apply grease. I use it in the spark plug thread hole. I felt some resistance doing it, but didn't press it. I turned 1/2 to the left and 1/4 to the right two to three times. got some grime out. well, I try a new bosch platinum plug and I still feel resistance. I get fed up, and I put back all four of the old ac delco plugs. The old plug was still hard to get in and I didn't feel like I got it in all the way. the car fires right up, no erratic rpm at stop lights at all. car runs fine. check engine light is still on, so I disconnect the battery for 15 minutes, and reconnect, start the car. drive for 20 miles no check engine light to be seen. have I gone mad or is it possible the bosch platinum plugs caused this?

0patience · June 2003

is it possible the bosch platinum plugs caused this?
Unfortunately, yes it is possible.
Which is why most mechanics recommend replacing with the same brand and number plugs that you took out.

When re-tapping a spark plug hole bring the piston about halfway up on the up stroke.
Fill the cylinder with shaving cream [yep, that's what I said]. Tap the spark plug threads [work fairly quickly, as the shaving cream will eventually melt], when finished cleaning up the threads, use a breaker bar and socket and turn the engine over to push the shaving cream out.
Once the metal shavings are out, you can use the starter to crank it over [disconnect the coil or connector to coils] to push any remaining shaving cream out.
Put the new OEM [usually AC or something like that] plug in and start the vehicle and let it warm up. Recheck the spark plug and then you should be done.

vcheng · June 2003

You are a genius. This is the first I have heard of using shaving cream this way, and I must say: innovative, inspired thinking!

Any preferred razor brands and aftershave for engine use to dress up the engine bay after done with this retapping?

otoluva · June 2003

I have a 96 T Bird 4.6L very clean, my check engine light came on awhile ago, took the car in for diagnosis at Ford and the computer feed back was that cylinders 2 and 4 are missfiring I need new wires and spark plugs, problem is I had just changed them recently and the car drives reall nice, does anyone know what a car would do when a cylinder(s)missfire and should I believe what the dealer said? Any input will be appreciated.

swschrad · June 2003

or maybe hai karate for a rallied-up civic

alcan · June 2003

"does anyone know what a car would do when a cylinder(s)missfire"
It sends unburned hydrocarbon fuel into the catalytic converter, raising the temp of the catalyst bed to where it eventually melts down.

"should I believe what the dealer said?"
Depends on which diagnostic trouble codes were retrieved:
P0300 Random/Multiple Cylinder Misfire Detected
P0301 Cylinder 1 Misfire Detected
P0302 Cylinder 2 Misfire Detected
P0303 Cylinder 3 Misfire Detected
P0304 Cylinder 4 Misfire Detected
P0305 Cylinder 5 Misfire Detected
P0306 Cylinder 6 Misfire Detected
P0307 Cylinder 7 Misfire Detected
P0308 Cylinder 8 Misfire Detected

If there are no driveablilty issues, have the codes cleared and drive it. If the codes reset, take a hard look at the quality of the plugs and wires (a lot of aftermarket stuff is sub par), and if all's ok time to lok at the coils.

otoluva · June 2003

0patience · June 2003

vcheng,
I'd like to take credit for that idea, but it was passed on to me by another mechanic.
It works great, the shavings get trapped in the shaving cream and is pushed out the cylinder along with the shaving cream.

vcheng · June 2003

You are a gentleman to boot, with modesty, and the honesty to give credit where credit's due.

However, I will remember this one as your idea.

loris43 · June 2003

I had my Econoline Van checked when my light came on and I was told I needed a sensor replaced. My light came back on and I was told 'its nothing'.
3 months after my warranty expired I was told I needed a NEW ENGINE!!! (I had 56,000 miles on her) I've been a Ford fan my entire life....(I still own my first car...1968 Mustang) but since I was screwed over by Ford (quite a few times) I might have to buy a Chevy! (or worse, a FOREIGN CAR!!)

swschrad · June 2003

you are on record as having asked about engine issues before the end of warranty if you have your sales slips, and told nothing was wrong. you have a case to have those repairs made under warranty. if you can't argue it, get somebody like a lawyer who can, dig out the slips, and get some facts in line before you pay out for this one.

for instance, what were the codes, and why didn't they count? there ought to be some service information out there at the dealers.

Check Engine light

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