Juice, a group from the RS crowd has gone to SEMA for the last two years and they're going again this year. I'm sure we'll get really good pics and stories from them.
Simon Sirin from www.imprezawrx.org is sort of the coordinator, in case someone reading this is thinking about attending.
I too would like to welcome you. As you no doubt realize there are a lot of us Canucks here. One of the reasons I chose Subaru this time was the great feeling in Subie groups like this one. Makes me feel even more comfy knowing you are here to listen and assist. Thanks
Because I go away for one lousy day and come back to 79 new posts. In Future Models alone, for cryin out loud!
New SVX- clearly FHI is getting a little Piech religion. Move a brand previously thought of as entry level up-market. Soob and VW dealers are even paired, at least in MD, so they had to figure it out sooner or later. Here, the OB shares showroom floor space with Passat SloMos. They had to get a 6 or risk losing those sales to a car sitting just a few feet away. Ditto interior. Now the other arque that usually resides somewhere on such a dealer's real estate is Audi. Piech gets to play with two marques (in the U.S.) but FHI only gets one. There is no question the TT REALLY put Audi on the map recently, even if as nothing more than corporate spokesmodel. Surely FHI sees the potential of the Impreza platform in the same way that Piech ordered the A4 (VW's designation for the 4th generation golf) platform- several distinct models riding on one well-designed pan. So why not build a Soob T? You got the platform, one of the best in the world! Excpect a coupe first. BTW, coupes have 2 doors. If I see any stupid vestigal doors, I will be cross. great for trumping up sales of a withering un-sports car, but not on the flagship sporting model for an entire brand. for all the comments about the new Impreza, I will say this: Subaru has also learned from Ferdinand that clean design sells better than japanese boy-racer doodads. I hope this carries over to the upcoming coupe. More feng-shui and less fake hood scoops.
Lastly- I have done heard tell that Mitsubishi has sat up and noticed all the hype surrounding the impending release of the turbo Impreza in the U.S. SoA, get ready, because rumor has it....
the Lancers are coming. 2002. Chances of the Evo coming are doubtful.
I 'spose you are right. the A4 does pay the bills, but what I mean is that it's the TT that draws folks to the Audi stand at car shows (or to showrooms) and has generated so much excitement for the brand recently.
I'm busy at work 1 (one!) day, and have to catch up on so many posts! Are you guys all retired (got rich from your dot-com investments?) or what? I wonder why there is 0 posts in Cleaning section -- is everybody so proud of his/her dirty Soob and never ever cleans it?
Juice, you're one lucky guy! Not only you've got Orvis certificate from test-driving Volvo XC70, you've got all the praise for the review, as opposed to another (very similar) review (#1499, Meet the Members). Must be that authority figure effect :-).
You had me until you said "vestigal" [sic] in lieu of "vestigial". hehe, you know I can't let stuff like that slide; besides, if Kate can correct herself, I can correct you Actually, good post, my friend. I didn't realize A4 meant 4G Golf; interesting.
yea, the corporate designation for that platform is A4, which has nothing to do with the A4, which rides on the B3 (I think) platform, along with the Passat.
I'll add my hearty hello and welcome to Greg. I don't know if other forums here have this level of "official" particpation, but I sure am impressed. It highlights one of the reasons I believe I wound up with a Subaru: enthusiasm, both from the factory folks and from the owners. I love your choice in cars too! I have an 00' GT sedan - the sleeper deal in the Subaru lineup.
As for a "wish list" Subie, I would love to see a poor man's 928. Leave the motor in front, don't bother with a useless-for-humans rear seat, balance the power distribution 60R/40F or more, stuff a couple of turbos on an H6 under there, give it "long legs" (make it a true GT coupe), and oh by the way make the whole deal as reliable as my Legacy . I'd drive it every day.
Here in the Bay Area there are a whole *lot* of SLKs. The funny thing to me is that I don't see many of them with the top down! This is really odd because you could basically leave the top down here for months in a row, and plenty of people drive with the top down every day. Maybe the SLK folk don't want to get their hair mussed?
Your review was fabulous - so good that I was struck speechless, and failed to acknowledge it --and now Volvo is but a vestigial blip on my radar screen of automobile purchasing, nay, life itself.
Wow Randy, if she had that effect on you, Kate is quite the writer! Kate, maybe you've been wasting those keystrokes slinging code instead of prose! Actually, I apologize for not leaving a thank you in that forum as I did enjoy reading your XC review. Thanks for taking the time to write it.
I agree with you on most items. Feels heavy, I just called it "wide".
Gas pedal slow? That's the turbo lag Volvo swears does not exist.
I didn't notice the turning radius (no U-turns), but I agree that the steering was a bit numb (probably the suspension is at fault).
Great seats, indeed, and I also noticed the enormous headrests. It may be good in collisions but it may CAUSE collisions with the blind spot they create.
Hmm, brakes only OK? I thought there were excellent. They did let the tires skid slightly on very hard stops, but the pedal feel was great and you could feel the brake assist.
You also didn't like the dash. I think if the color scheme was better it would be OK, it's just way, way too many colors and textures as it stands.
Variation in opinion goes to show how important a test drive is.
Apparently, Suzuki dealers fought hard to keep the V6 out of the Tracker, but lost. GM had promised them it would be exclusive to their Grand Vitara, but broke the promise.
What's the scoop with SOA's involvement with the upcoming SEMA show next month? Can you tip us off as to what to expect? Is SOA going to tease us with some neat concepts?
Has anyone gone to the driving school that offers training in Subarus? I think the school in question is Panoz. If you have been there, what was it like; why do they use Subarus; what do you think you learned?
does indeed offer a couse at Road Atlanta. The basic course teaches car control in emergency situations, with wet skidpad work and dry track work, plus classroom instruction. I've taken such a course in my own Soob, and learned a lot about actual car dynamics via the seat of my pants!
Just got my new issue of Motor Trend in the mail yesterday. Saw ads for the H-6/VDC, the new Rav4, and the new Acura MDX. It shouldn't be too long before these vehicles start showing up on dealrer's lots.
By the way, I picked up a brochure last weekend on the new Rav4. It's a big improvement over the earlier model. Still not up to Forester standards though.
It does have an interesting sliding/folding/removable split rear seat. It also has an equally interesting split cargo cover, which allows you to cover half (or all) the rear cargo area. This comes in handy if you have a tall item that you can't cover, but still want to cover the rest of the cargo area.
Speaking of cargo covers, nobody has equaled GM's clever cargo cover that they use on the Blazer. It retracts into the left side panel, so that when you don't want to use it, and need to fold down the rear seat because of something large needs to go back there, you're not stuck with a roler shade laying on the cargo floor. It's not often that I complement GM, but this is clearly a superior design and efficient solution that no one else has matched.
Do you know whether the Panoz/Subaru school at Road Atlanta will allow you to use your own vehicle? I would prefer to use my own at ANY course offered, since that's where I'd be putting those lessons into play. I'd be more than happy to sign any waivers of liability.
Scheduling the trip? Dunno, won't be this year. I used to go up to Road Atlanta from time to time while in college and grad school (the 1st time). I have lots of friends still in Atlanta and north Georgia, and go back at least once a year for business and/or pleasure. I could probably cut some costs by staying with friends. Convincing my wife of the necessity of such a trip will be the hard part.
I got an e-mail from Glenn Wallace (new Impresa.com), and he thinks the U.S. RS version may get a twin-cam, variable-valve-timing engine putting out 185 HP, which is 20 more than the current 2.5. He also thinks the "RS" label may be replaced with an "RX" label, which is more in line with models sold in other markets.
I have no reason to doubt him, he's been way ahead of the curve with his predictions and scoops so far.
If he's right, I would also think that engine would make its way into the Legacy/Outback and Forester.
Bob: I hope to drive an H6 on 10/22 at the Fall Folliage meet. You attending? Patti's supposed to show up with something, ah, tasty!
There was a Toy dealer next to that Volvo dealer I visited, but they had no RAV4s yet. I got a brochure, too (oddly, Volvo didn't have them yet).
The look is growing on me. It's grown up from the cute look of the original. The spare still blocks the rear view, though, and the interior is splattered with fake brushed aluminum. Man, the TT really started a trend.
The seats are removable now, too. The last one you needed to unbolt them. The hooks on the back for grocery bags copy Dodge's clever idea.
Ha ha. The moonroof is puny. 16" wheels are standard, though, and 235/60HR16s are available (but clearance drops from 7.5" to 7.1", less than Forester). Yuk, orange lighting. Tacky.
As usual, everything is optional. A/C, cruise, power package, even carpeted mats. Fog lamps, roof rack, mud guards, ABS, too. All standard on Forester. I hate how Toyota nickel-and-dimes you. I still doesn't have a real rear bumper standard!
Base price is probably $18 grand. Equipped like a Forester L it's probably $21 grand, though.
Power/weight ratio is about 5% down on the Soob, too. Torque even more. 1500 lbs towing max, but no trailer brakes needed. MPG is up to 23/27, a good improvement from the old 22/25.
I'll try one out for the heck of it, but still seems like its playing 2nd fiddle to the 'ster.
That was really just a tip of the hat to the environmental folks. The new Impreza looks bigger and will get a 2.5l engine standard, so they didn't even go in that direction.
Juice - you're right about how Toyota nickle-and-dimes you to death. It not just on the Rav4. The same is with the 4Runner and other models. It will be interesting to see what they do with "content" on the new Highlander, which is due in showrooms in February. I'm sure, comparably equipped, it will be (much) more expensive than the Forester.
That's $2,415, and that's at invoice, not retail. All are standard on a "stripped" Forester L.
The other trick is that they sold 2WD (RAV2?) models as well as 2 doors, so the ads tout some models in the mid teens. Guess they bait-and-switch the buyer into the $22k models on the showroom.
...most people overlook, is the fact that the Forester is a "car," not a multi-purpose vehicle, thus subject to tougher safety and crash standards. I doubt if the Rav4 has a 5 mph front bumper. The rear bumper, as with the last model, is a joke.
If Subaru can get 185 out of the Boxer 4 without increased noise and vibration, that would be very impressive. 2.5L is already near the largest you can get in a 4 cylinder.
185HP wouldn't be at all impressive for a 2.5L, especially with variable valve timing. The 944S made 188 over 10 years ago without vvt (2.5L inline four).
If that number is "firm" or strongly rumored, my bet is a warmed-over non-vvt 2.5L or a vvt 2.0L.
2.0L makes more sense for fuel economy and to make it more clear that the 2.0L turbo is an upgrade. (185HP 2.5L vs. 218HP 2.0L turbo)
-Colin
EDIT for juice: Ford used 2600 and 2900 cc iron block, iron head inline fours. Mitsu had a 2600cc inline four as well (starion / conquest). The 944 had 2.5, 2.7 and 3.0L inline fours.
Was the 2.3 OHC that started life in the Pinto and Mustang II. It was quite a strong engine with race versions used in the old sport truck series putting out well over 250 HP. Esslinger engineering had some rated over 500HP
Toyota added VVT to the Corolla and it added only 5 horses (to 120 total). Honda gets more aggressive, but those engine don't produce much low-end at all (torque totals are pitiful).
It would be nice to get torque figures, then we could tell how much the VVT is really doing.
Your argument makes sense, but we've already heard the 2.5l will be made the standard engine, and the 2.2l will be dropped. Guess they could back pedal, though.
So I was right about the 944. My dad had a boat with a really big four banger Chevy, but I forget the exact displacement.
I can't access profiles from work, so I don't know where you are located, but the National Capitol Chapter of the BMW CCA offers a full season of driving courses in your own vehicle. http://www.bcpl.net/~ncc/
Of course, you have to be a member, but NOT for the April Highway Safety School, which is basically what those Panoz courses are.
I imagine the local BMW CCA chapter in your area does something similar.
At the login page it tells me it couldn't assign a cookie, even though I have cookies enabled in my browser, my firewall isn't blocking them, and in fact a cookie with "edmunds" in it is being written. It's really frustrating because I can't login at the login page... I have to go to a conference (as a guest) then login which somehow works and returns me to the conference. But in the upper left navigation pane, it never shows my login name (locke2c). I can post but can't see profiles (it brings me to the login screen no matter what).
Yup. Word for word exactly what I go through when at work. Kinda sucks, although I guess I don't mind too much....could the MAN be alerted to my extra-curricular activities because of the cookies? dunno.
First of all for all of you reading this that aren't Lucien, it's really OT and boring.
But if you're having the same problem, read on.
Loosh, what browser are you using at work? I use IE5.0 (with every patch available) at home and IE4.01SP2 at work. I think this was happening at home before I went to 5.0 though, and I had 4.01SP2.
Oh well, maybe it'll go away when Edmunds moves away from WellEngaged.
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Comments
Simon Sirin from www.imprezawrx.org is sort of the coordinator, in case someone reading this is thinking about attending.
-Colin
Ross
The DC Auto Show is kind of an afterthought. We get leftovers from New York and Detroit.
Though we did get to see the 2000 Neon first, isn't that odd? They had the "world premiere" several months later at Detroit. Go figure.
-juice
New SVX- clearly FHI is getting a little Piech religion. Move a brand previously thought of as entry level up-market. Soob and VW dealers are even paired, at least in MD, so they had to figure it out sooner or later. Here, the OB shares showroom floor space with Passat SloMos. They had to get a 6 or risk losing those sales to a car sitting just a few feet away. Ditto interior. Now the other arque that usually resides somewhere on such a dealer's real estate is Audi. Piech gets to play with two marques (in the U.S.) but FHI only gets one. There is no question the TT REALLY put Audi on the map recently, even if as nothing more than corporate spokesmodel. Surely FHI sees the potential of the Impreza platform in the same way that Piech ordered the A4 (VW's designation for the 4th generation golf) platform- several distinct models riding on one well-designed pan. So why not build a Soob T? You got the platform, one of the best in the world! Excpect a coupe first. BTW, coupes have 2 doors. If I see any stupid vestigal doors, I will be cross. great for trumping up sales of a withering un-sports car, but not on the flagship sporting model for an entire brand.
for all the comments about the new Impreza, I will say this: Subaru has also learned from Ferdinand that clean design sells better than japanese boy-racer doodads. I hope this carries over to the upcoming coupe. More feng-shui and less fake hood scoops.
Lastly- I have done heard tell that Mitsubishi has sat up and noticed all the hype surrounding the impending release of the turbo Impreza in the U.S. SoA, get ready, because rumor has it....
the Lancers are coming. 2002. Chances of the Evo coming are doubtful.
I think it was the A4 that really put Audi back on the map. The A6 and TT get attention, but the A4 paid the bills.
If they do the SVX, that allows the WRX to fill the boy-racer niche and the SVX to go premium GT. Makes sense to me.
I've also heard Mitsu will drop the Mirage name. Lancer Evo would be good to put the pressure on SoA to get real WRXs.
-juice
Juice, you're one lucky guy! Not only you've got Orvis certificate from test-driving Volvo XC70, you've got all the praise for the review, as opposed to another (very similar) review (#1499, Meet the Members). Must be that authority figure effect :-).
..Mike
yea, the corporate designation for that platform is A4, which has nothing to do with the A4, which rides on the B3 (I think) platform, along with the Passat.
As for a "wish list" Subie, I would love to see a poor man's 928. Leave the motor in front, don't bother with a useless-for-humans rear seat, balance the power distribution 60R/40F or more, stuff a couple of turbos on an H6 under there, give it "long legs" (make it a true GT coupe), and oh by the way make the whole deal as reliable as my Legacy . I'd drive it every day.
Here in the Bay Area there are a whole *lot* of SLKs. The funny thing to me is that I don't see many of them with the top down! This is really odd because you could basically leave the top down here for months in a row, and plenty of people drive with the top down every day. Maybe the SLK folk don't want to get their hair mussed?
Cheers,
WDB
Randy
Kate: me, and authority figure? Can you please tell my boss, uh, I mean my wife, that?
Myke: eye noteissed thee type-o two, soh eye geuss I'am thee leanyant won. (see if you can resist...)
A4, B3, who cares. Give me a B4 RSK any day!
-juice
..Mike
..Mike
..Mike
I agree with you on most items. Feels heavy, I just called it "wide".
Gas pedal slow? That's the turbo lag Volvo swears does not exist.
I didn't notice the turning radius (no U-turns), but I agree that the steering was a bit numb (probably the suspension is at fault).
Great seats, indeed, and I also noticed the enormous headrests. It may be good in collisions but it may CAUSE collisions with the blind spot they create.
Hmm, brakes only OK? I thought there were excellent. They did let the tires skid slightly on very hard stops, but the pedal feel was great and you could feel the brake assist.
You also didn't like the dash. I think if the color scheme was better it would be OK, it's just way, way too many colors and textures as it stands.
Variation in opinion goes to show how important a test drive is.
-juice
Hope Subaru manages to stay more independent!
-juice
Bob
Not only does Chrysler have quality control issues, but also the quality levels in Brazil leave much to be desired (and I'm Brazilian).
My $18 grand would buy an RS.
-juice
thanks
-Colin
By the way, I picked up a brochure last weekend on the new Rav4. It's a big improvement over the earlier model. Still not up to Forester standards though.
It does have an interesting sliding/folding/removable split rear seat. It also has an equally interesting split cargo cover, which allows you to cover half (or all) the rear cargo area. This comes in handy if you have a tall item that you can't cover, but still want to cover the rest of the cargo area.
Speaking of cargo covers, nobody has equaled GM's clever cargo cover that they use on the Blazer. It retracts into the left side panel, so that when you don't want to use it, and need to fold down the rear seat because of something large needs to go back there, you're not stuck with a roler shade laying on the cargo floor. It's not often that I complement GM, but this is clearly a superior design and efficient solution that no one else has matched.
Bob
Do you know whether the Panoz/Subaru school at Road Atlanta will allow you to use your own vehicle? I would prefer to use my own at ANY course offered, since that's where I'd be putting those lessons into play. I'd be more than happy to sign any waivers of liability.
Scheduling the trip? Dunno, won't be this year. I used to go up to Road Atlanta from time to time while in college and grad school (the 1st time). I have lots of friends still in Atlanta and north Georgia, and go back at least once a year for business and/or pleasure. I could probably cut some costs by staying with friends. Convincing my wife of the necessity of such a trip will be the hard part.
Ed
I have no reason to doubt him, he's been way ahead of the curve with his predictions and scoops so far.
If he's right, I would also think that engine would make its way into the Legacy/Outback and Forester.
Bob
There was a Toy dealer next to that Volvo dealer I visited, but they had no RAV4s yet. I got a brochure, too (oddly, Volvo didn't have them yet).
The look is growing on me. It's grown up from the cute look of the original. The spare still blocks the rear view, though, and the interior is splattered with fake brushed aluminum. Man, the TT really started a trend.
The seats are removable now, too. The last one you needed to unbolt them. The hooks on the back for grocery bags copy Dodge's clever idea.
Ha ha. The moonroof is puny. 16" wheels are standard, though, and 235/60HR16s are available (but clearance drops from 7.5" to 7.1", less than Forester). Yuk, orange lighting. Tacky.
As usual, everything is optional. A/C, cruise, power package, even carpeted mats. Fog lamps, roof rack, mud guards, ABS, too. All standard on Forester. I hate how Toyota nickel-and-dimes you. I still doesn't have a real rear bumper standard!
Base price is probably $18 grand. Equipped like a Forester L it's probably $21 grand, though.
Power/weight ratio is about 5% down on the Soob, too. Torque even more. 1500 lbs towing max, but no trailer brakes needed. MPG is up to 23/27, a good improvement from the old 22/25.
I'll try one out for the heck of it, but still seems like its playing 2nd fiddle to the 'ster.
-juice
185hp sounds sweet. Other markets have VVT but it only makes marginally more power.
Yes, I also hope that makes it into all models. Wonder how they'll do with CAFE, though.
-juice
The 185 h.p. would be great! That's probably the engine that was in the Fleet-X http://www.subaru.net/prototype/fleetx/fleetx.htm
Dennis
That was really just a tip of the hat to the environmental folks. The new Impreza looks bigger and will get a 2.5l engine standard, so they didn't even go in that direction.
-juice
Bob
ABS $539
floor mats 44
roof rack 119
mud guards 61
cargo liner 69
A/C, cruise, power package 1392
rear bumper 191
That's $2,415, and that's at invoice, not retail. All are standard on a "stripped" Forester L.
The other trick is that they sold 2WD (RAV2?) models as well as 2 doors, so the ads tout some models in the mid teens. Guess they bait-and-switch the buyer into the $22k models on the showroom.
-juice
Bob
-juice
Subaru really ought to get the VVT 2.5l to market soon, since it matches the V6 for power and would be more efficient. Plus they offer a 5 speed.
Pass it on, Patti?
-juice
Some 4 cylinder truck engines are big, but that's another class.
-juice
If that number is "firm" or strongly rumored, my bet is a warmed-over non-vvt 2.5L or a vvt 2.0L.
2.0L makes more sense for fuel economy and to make it more clear that the 2.0L turbo is an upgrade. (185HP 2.5L vs. 218HP 2.0L turbo)
-Colin
EDIT for juice:
Ford used 2600 and 2900 cc iron block, iron head inline fours. Mitsu had a 2600cc inline four as well (starion / conquest). The 944 had 2.5, 2.7 and 3.0L inline fours.
It would be nice to get torque figures, then we could tell how much the VVT is really doing.
Your argument makes sense, but we've already heard the 2.5l will be made the standard engine, and the 2.2l will be dropped. Guess they could back pedal, though.
So I was right about the 944. My dad had a boat with a really big four banger Chevy, but I forget the exact displacement.
-juice
-juice
Bob
Of course, you have to be a member, but NOT for the April Highway Safety School, which is basically what those Panoz courses are.
I imagine the local BMW CCA chapter in your area does something similar.
Drew/aling
Townhall Community Leader/Vans Conference
I have the same problem at home, I think.
At the login page it tells me it couldn't assign a cookie, even though I have cookies enabled in my browser, my firewall isn't blocking them, and in fact a cookie with "edmunds" in it is being written. It's really frustrating because I can't login at the login page... I have to go to a conference (as a guest) then login which somehow works and returns me to the conference. But in the upper left navigation pane, it never shows my login name (locke2c). I can post but can't see profiles (it brings me to the login screen no matter what).
Everything works great here at work.
-Colin
-Colin
Bob
http://just-auto.com/news_detail.asp?art=14805
Bob
But if you're having the same problem, read on.
Loosh, what browser are you using at work? I use IE5.0 (with every patch available) at home and IE4.01SP2 at work. I think this was happening at home before I went to 5.0 though, and I had 4.01SP2.
Oh well, maybe it'll go away when Edmunds moves away from WellEngaged.
-Colin