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Comments
I've always felt that 5, 6, or 7 speeds make much more sense in light truck applications than do 4-speed automatics. I'm hoping that Subaru is working on a 5-speed automatic for future Subes, and maybe a close-ratio 6-speed sport-shift automatic for the WRX and GT models.
Bob
http://www.blueovalnews.com/
..Mike
..Mike
Click on the camera icon down at the bottom left.
Bob
http://www.subaru.co.uk/Subaru/index2.htm
..Mike
The UK OB has fender flares, just like the Aussie OBs. Did you see the 0-60mph spring time? 8.5 seconds! Not the best, but pretty good and pretty competitive. What the heck is "extra urban cycle"? 36.2mpg for a 6-cylinder is amazing!
Drew/aling
Townhall Community Leader/Vans Conference
I currently lease a '97 Outback. The lease is going to be up in March, '01. Right now, I'm thinking about ordering a Sedona Red Forester S Premium. (I like the monotone scheme. The huge moonroof has nothing to do with it. :-) The dealer tells me that they're few and far between -- hence the need for special ordering it.
The dealer also tells me that I would need to order it in January for a March delivery. My questions are this: If I recall correctly, the '01 Forester came out about March of 2000. If that's the case, is it going to be the same for the 2001 as well? When I go to the dealer in January, will Subaru be taking orders for '02 Foresters? If so, have any of you heard about what changes are in store for the new models? As I understand it, there's going to be a new redesigned '03 model, so I doubt that much will be done for the '02 Forester, but if you know of any changes at all, I'd appreciate hearing about them.
Thanks,
Dan (A new poster, but not a Dave, Mike, or even fruit drink ;-)
-Frank P.
Besides using a MAC, I'm also left-handed. I wonder if that has anything to do with it?
Bob
It's probably a browser issue rather than Mac vs. PC. Many PCs run Internet Exploder [sic] or Netscape Communicator. Even if a Mac ran the same browser program and version as a PC, the source code in which it's written will be somewhat, if not completely, different due to the differences in the APIs (application program interfaces) called to manipulate the screen (open, close, move windows and what not) between the Apple OS and Microsoft Windows are substantially different. [Editor: That is classified as a run-on sentence.]
The machine on which I tested is Windows 98 and IE 5.0. What browser version and OS version do you run?
..Mike
..Mike
I decided to buy the H6VDC with the rough road group.
I sent out e-mails to all the dealers here in Southern California, Seattle and New England asking for a price quote. I received a few responses but no price quotes. On the Internet I received prices of $31,300 to $31,500.
Unfortunately, purchasing a car in my area of Thousand Oaks and Westlake Village, California people have too much money and the dealers are difficult to deal with. After 3 months of sharing my wife's car I finally made a deal with a local dealer. The price was $31,500. I know I paid high but when you're looking for a H6VDC there's so much confusion on what the price should be. The OBVDC should arrive the first week in November.
Would appreciate your opinion.
Bob
..Mike
..Mike
Also, as you know with AOL, I can use Explorer or Navigator if I so choose.
Bob
Bob
http://www.4car.co.uk/jsp/main.jsp?lnk=230&storyid=492
Bob
http://www.4car.co.uk/jsp/main.jsp?lnk=361
..Mike
..Mike
You mentioned your H6-VDC will come equipped with a "Rough Road Group." What is that? It must be a new (option?) package of some sort. Skid plates perhaps? Is this package exclusive to the new H6 models, or can it also be ordered on other Outbacks too?
Bob
Thanks for the responses. Yeah, I'm excited about the OBH6. I will keep you posted and give you updates.
About the Rough Road Group. It has an Acrylic Hood Deflector, Rear Differential Protector, Rear Window Dust Deflector. It lists for $260.00. Their cost is $171.00. You can get it on the OBH4 and the Legacy GT.
Now I sit back and wait for delivery.
By the way I chose white with the beige interior.
Can't wait till I go to the high Sierra's and see what it actually can do.
Talk to you soon and thanks again.
Bob
-Leif
Warranty service, I understand, can only be done at a dealership but maintenance service can be handled anywhere, just keep the paper trail complete.
We keep hoping they will open one in S. B. but so far only rumors...
good luck
Chris
We had three different courses. One was a speed trial around the circular track. Next up was a slalom course over plastic sheeting squirted with water from sprinklers and soap. Then, onto a fast acceleration course making a hard right, full throttle on another wet, soapy rubber-matted course.
I was impressed by the interiors of all of the vehicles. The MacIntosh stereo system was awesome. I have some information on it, so let me know if you have any questions.
The racing was great. The Volvo, Mercedes, and Beemer felt a bit underpowered on hard acceleration. It was explained that they have a set up similar to our VDC, but the difference in the systems is that they do not allow for driver input. They cut power when the sensor's pick up a problem. Our VDC allowed us to have a bit more "fun" in semi-out of control situations. Of course, the other cars were beautiful vehicles with lots of gadgetry, so this is just my well documented biased opinion.
Let me know if you have any questions and I'll try to get answers for you. I'm heading up to LL Beans corporate offices today and I'll be back on Thursday.
Now, I'd like to hear the results of a similar showdown among the OB 6 (with or without stability control) the VW 4-Motion, the new Beemer 3 series AWD, and the Audi Allroad. What the heck, throw in the A4 Quattro wagon as well.
I realize the above test focused on VDC capabilities, but it's time for one of the car buff mags to do this showdown. I'm rooting for the OB, of course! And, meanwhile, I'm getting itchy for the new Impreza -- check out the recent writeup on it in the British car mag, CAR. They don't like it, they worship it.
That lofty competition tell you everything, Robert. $31.5k seems like a lot until you look at the alternatives. It's not only carries a much lower base price, but also includes lots of equipment that's optional on the other guys.
The XC I tested (and didn't particularly like) stickered for over $40k. An ML would be close, the X5 would be even more.
Robert's actually the 2nd VDC order - Ken's brother ordered one a while back. Don ordered an LL Bean, too.
WRX at lower than expected prices? Sounds good! $25k or less, please. I've heard hp figures from 215 to 250, so your guess is as good as mine. It'll still be class-leading power.
Dylan: my dad's 2001 Outback Limited wagon has side air bags. So does the Forester S Premium.
Dan: the 2001 Forester should get a longer production cycle, and my guess is the 2002 will appear next fall.
Drew: extra-urban? Funny way to say non-city mileage, no? Mid 30's sounds great. Wonder if the overdrive gear is lower than the H4's.
Bob: more ratios would be good. Especially for the VDC. That would actually be the perfect item to distinguish it once the H6 makes its way down the model range. Give us a 5 speed auto with buttons to change gears on the steering wheel, and a 6 speed GT VDC with the H6 or a turbo!
RAV4 prices are down from last year, but they've crept up since it came out. Also, they probably just decontented a little more. The rear bumper was optional, so maybe now the front bumper is also optional!
Forester prices haven't even kept up pace with inflation, and they've added enough content that transaction prices are lower.
-juice
The combinations and permutations are nearly endless. Have fun!
Cheers,
WDB
The part about the difference between VDC and ESP/DSC was interesting. I know that Subaru stated in the press release that the AWD system would try to intervene first before VDC stepped in. The stability control systems on the other vehicles (particularly MBz's) are conservative and will step in, and step in hard if necessary.
But then again, all of the competing vehicles have ESP off switches. For the ML, hitting the switch will leave the computer with 20% control, so it will intervene, but at a much reduced rate. The VDC wagon doesn't appear to have an off switch, so I wonder if this is why it has a higher activation threshold. Did they explain why an off switch was not provided? It means no donuts in snow covered parking lots! ;-( Ken & juice will be disappointed ;-)
WRT acceleration, well the BMW has the same displacement as the H6 wagon, but yet it weighs almost as much as a Lincoln Navigatior SUV! The ML320 is a few hundred pounds less than the X5, but it is still heavy compared to the Subaru, so acceleration is not going to feel as brisk or as car-like. But when we compare 0-60 times, they're actually all in the same ballpark, ranging from 8.5 to 9 seconds.
I'm going to a collision avoidance class in a about 5 minutes time, so it should be fun especially with the wet track from the rain! :-)
The ride to the class mentioned above will be bumpy, with my tires filled up to 45 psi. Ah well...small price to pay :-)
Drew/aling
Townhall Community Leader/Vans Conference
Let us know how the class goes.
-juice
US 0.26417
IMP 0.22
(Chriscoulter)
Yes, I'm very familiar with the 101 drive up to San Luis Obispo. We usually stay at the Apple Farm Inn. Hopefully we'll be going up there next month. We'd like to go to Cambria and stay at the Fogcatcher Inn. It's on the ocean. Hopefully I'll have my OBH6VDC.
By the way, we had our first snow storm today at Donner Summit above Tahoe.
I feel better knowing that 31.5K wasn't too bad a price with all the extras you get.
Thank you all. I'll be in touch.
Bob
As a side note: white spoilers will NOT be available on initial shipments. All other colors (which are not new) can be had. Rather than wait for another "round", I'll do without! I did agree with my dealer that this option should probably not be dealer installed as drilling, painting and fitting is required and this will raise the price substantially from the retail and dealer price.
I'm told that dealers will be allocated 2-4 H6s for the first several months of production. Production will be equally divided between L.L.Bean and VDC models. I wonder if a 50-50 mix is too ambitious or whether the preponderance of production should be L.L.Bean models. Time will tell!
Now, anyone in the greater Chicagoland area interested in buying my '96 green Outback with 43,000 miles, auto, winter group incl. block heater, security system and CD player? The wagon is really in excellent shape, driven by this 67 year old with care, but not only to church on Sundays!
Don
Drew: No instrumented tests, and he thinks it's the same size as an A4?
Have you sat in an A4? They're smaller than my Forester, never mind the Outback!
Also, he writes it's $2400 per extra cylinder, but we know that's totally bogus. The extra $4800 also gets the auto tranny, the VDC, and the stereo, plus plenty of other stuff.
I'd like to see someone more familiar with current Subarus test one, and perform full instrumented tests. Until then, the reviews are so inaccurate that they are of no use to me.
-juice
These reviewers are all horsepower poisioned. I looked up the A4, the car is 11" shorter than the Legacy.....
I would think being an auto reviewer is a great job, and I would think that they would check their facts before they publish!
The Outback almost matches the A6 for space.
Kate: "for those who remember"? You crack me up! Older folks would say that wasn't that long ago!
-juice
PS I was in high school, and owned an '81 Mustang, so I know what you meant!
PPS Drew - didn't mean to shoot the messenger, thanks for sharing the URL.
I'll be getting the Impreza WRX promotional video that's available on the SOJ website in a couple weeks. A friend of mine was relocating from Japan to CA so I had him order one. It's now enroute with the rest of his stuff.
I'll be more than happy to pass it around after I get a chance to view it.
Ken
-juice
Maybe the Auto.com reviewer was referring to the NEW Audi A4. I personally doubt it, but check out www.vwvortex.com. In addition to being substantially bigger all around, the A4 is getting a new 3.0 liter V6 pumping out 220 HP. No doubt the next generation Passat due in 2002 will get this engine.
Also, at what point will you believe that Subaru is having a problem marketing a $30k+ car? Every review says the same thing..."a little bit more powerful, but man that's a lot of money for a Subaru." If SOA had introduced the LL Bean first, I'm sure that it would have blunted some of this criticism and reviewers would have focused more on value for the dollar rather than total cost.
Bill
Personally, I can't wait until they make the H6 and option for the regular OB.
Ken
-mike
Bob
http://www.motorshow.or.jp/eng/
Hopefully they can pull it off this time!
-mike
a) Subaru was not perceived as sports car manufacturer;
b) no manual tranny
c) weird (although innovative) side glass design.
For the quality and options of SVX it was not overpriced, but because of the factors listed above (especially (a))people did not want to spend money on this car, period.
As for upscale move in the Outback and Forester series, I think the fact that both Limited and S Premium versions are VERY popular (S+ in my area fly off the lot), can justify the upscale move for Subaru. Heck, my husband is already pondering the idea of trading his Accord for H6 Outback...
I agree that the LL Bean should have been
introduced first. I have yet to see a review of that model - everyone focuses on the VDC.
Still, 1300 per month should be a piece of cake to sell. They won't likely be sitting in dealer lots collecting dust.
The SVX tried to break the $30k barrier before, but that was when only Lexus and the Germans were priced in that range. It lacked a 5 speed manual, which was a strategic mistake because that's what the car mags test, and they turned their backs on it. Finally, other Soob models at the time were half that price. Now, OBs and Foresters sell for $25k routinely and noone even blinks.
Now you have Explorers and Jeeps, even some minivans over $30k, so it's not even luxury territory any more (it's near-luxury). That plus you have to account for almost a decade of inflation. $30k ain't what it used to be.
-juice
> a) Subaru was not perceived as sports car
> manufacturer;
> b) no manual tranny
> c) weird (although innovative) side glass > design.
It still boggles my mind that Subaru hasn't taken advantage of its WRC success in its US marketing. It had become successful in racing before the end of the SVX's model run.
Just my opinion: if a sporting, 2+2 GT-type Subaru was offered with a paddle shift manumatic, not many would miss the manual. Look at Ferrari 2+2s.
Window was odd, true, and probably the toughest design feature to embrace. As I've said here before, I loved the SVX upholstery and would like to see it offered in the Subaru range again.
And yes, let me go on record to say that I'd consider an H6 powered Legacy GT wagon when it comes time to replace the Forester - which I hope doesn't have to happen too soon.
Ed
But times are much different today -- you can go into a Toyota dealership and pay $50K-plus to buy a car (the Land Cruiser). The 4Runner is moving into the high 30s and the Avalon into the low/mid 30s. Nissan's Maxima and Pathfinder are also pricing themselves upward into the 30K category. Meanwhile, Lincoln will have an SUV and a pickup! And Jaguar will stretch downward into the 3-series market.
With Subaru, we have a car maker that is small-volume, high-quality, innovative, and recently very successful-at-marketing deciding what it can and cannot do in the ever more fluid more volatile automobile market. Subaru chooses to stretch its existing brand into higher markets. And let itself be judged against the Germans (VW and Audi, and maybe even the new 3-series AWD) and against SUVs and station wagon crossovers (Audi, Volvo) that run $5 to almost $15K higher.
Simultaneous with this, Subaru is FINALLY realizing its pocket rocket extraordinaire might just be something we Americans would love to have. First step -- a dolled up Impreza with the OB engine. (My daughter-in-law has one; I LOVE it!) And now they're ready to roll some bigger dice with a 220-hp Impreza.
As a guy whose business involves marketing, positioning and branding, I watch all this with interest. I think Subaru has gotten as smart in "engineering" its brand, as it is in engineering its vehicles. This after all is a brand which worked its way up from laughability, to anonymity, to an AWD total commitment, to the OB and now to a premium OB with a $29K upper price. Think about what else you could buy for the $29K -- Acura, TL, VW Passat with abslutely everything on it, and even some US-of-A fullzize pickups or midsize SUVs. Or even maybe the Chrysler 300M.
What I'm saying is that Subaru has been gutsy with its brand for the last 10 years, if only beause it had to be. It could not out-advertise, out-deal, out-finance the other makers. So, it's working smart -- using the assets its DOES have(quality, AWD and world rally performance) to very carefully build around its image of quality and relaibility -- adding, technical cachet and performance to the package. No longer will the brand represent JUST quirky, smart, independent thinking and usually politically liberal. The positoning will also successuly add a somewhat artful blend of suburbanity (small s, not capital S -- and this will come at a time when the SUV craze may be starting to wane) and savvy performance. And, by the way, in my opinion at least, the new sport pickup is not inconsistent with this.
A marketer will ask whether all this fits together under the single Subaru brand. I have to give them credit one more time -- I think the brand is well equipped to stretch across everything from the OB VDC, to the WRX, to the STX -- with enough room in the tent for the base Impreza and Legagy as well. And if this works -- in two to four years, we might even have a two-seat sports car a la Honda's.
As for the alternative to all this, consider Mazda. It's invisible. A very good set of cars, but with absolutely no distinguishing features -- unless you consider a smaller-than-usual minivan to be distinguishing. Even the Tribute, its Forester-fighter SUV, can be had albeit tricked out like a Tonka Toy, down the street at Ford.
I think Subaru can get where it wants to go. In fact, when I'm giving presentations on marketing and branding, I often use the Subaru brand as an example of smart branding.
And because I'm a Subaru disciple, I also hope they are successful. They require only two things: a continuing good economy and a continuing hands-off policy from General Motors.
Subaru AUstralia has provided me with a link for the Wednesday Oct 18th launch for the new impreza..
http://www.subaru.com.au/newimpreza
I like the concept of paddle shifters but the Audi execution is an object lesson in how NOT to do it. If Subaru goes for paddles, they need to bear in mind that the kind of people who are going to want them are ENTHUSIAST drivers and make them function in a manner that that type of driver will enjoy.
Pardon the rant,
WDB