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Comments
You're right. I've got a feeling almost all will have the touring package, though.
Plus, Odyssey demand is still high, and prices have not subsided. They need to open that 2nd plant.
-juice
The Touring Package includes the 150 lb. capacity roof rack, navigation system, upgraded tires/wheels, and a number of other goodies - all of which should probably be standard at that price range.
Bob
Too bad they didn't option it out like the TL. Make everything standard, with the nav option only.
-juice
-mike
-mike
I just talked to our Subaru dealer (Winnipeg). The 6s are arriving November 15ish. The prices were a little different than what luck11 was quoted.
Base 6 -- $41495. CDN (incl. freight etc)
VDC -- $45495. CDN (incl. freight etc)
Not only are they talking about firm pricing, they're adding $1500 for freight and dealer inspection, which is a rip-off. Unfortunately, they are the only dealer in town.
Still looking forward to a test drive.
Randy
The Trooper may be a good value, and better off road, but as a vehicle to live with on a daily basis, especially on windy roads, the MDX is the clear choice (in my humble opinion).
In terms of usable space, it's hard to say. I know it's a much wider vehicle than the Trooper. Yes, the rear does slope a bit, which cuts into the cargo area.
Bob
Towing capacity of the MDX = 2000 lbs (w/o towing package)
Trooper = 5000lbs.
I'm thinking the MDX might be more of a competition for the upcoming Axiom from Isuzu rather than the much larger trooper. In any event, $10K less is still a lot of dough on the value side.
-mike
You're right about potential VDC customers thinking twice. My brother who has a deposit on a VDC also put a deposit on an MDX. I've tried to talk him out of it, but they're both about the same price and the MDX is a lot bigger.
Oh well. He's going to drive the VDC at least once anyway.
Ken
According to owners and people who have test driven the vehicle, the MDX is actually surprisingly not as spacious in the 2nd row seating area compared to the narrower M-class. Legroom is slightly less than the ML as well.
Because of the lower price of the vehicle, many dealerships are charging $2-3K above MSRP, and or significantly marking up the accessories. $300 for a hood deflector!? $200 for rear (and only rear) mudflaps?
Funny that comparisons are being made between the Trooper and the MDX. Both employ similar torque-on-demand 4WD/AWD setups, and both have 3.5L V6 engines. The big turn-off for me is the MDX's lack of a centre differential and the unmanaged front differential. Although the latter is not uncommon (with the exception of the H6 VDC wagon, all Subarus also have unmanaged front diffs), nearly all of the MDX's competitors (ex. ML, X5) offer traction control + stability control, not to mention available HID Xenon headlamps.
Drew/aling
Townhall Community Leader/Vans Conference
Here's a thought, if your brother wants an SUV, has he considered the '00 ML320? They're available right now and currently going for at least $2K off MSRP. At least the vehicle has a similar (to the VDC wagon) 4WD + stability control system. The MB nameplate doesn't hurt either.
I hate when companies nickle and dime you on things. All troopers come equiped with just about everything. There are 3 trim levels, but they don't whack you for things like skid plates, mud flaps, stereos, etc. etc.
Also isn't the VDC stickered @ $32ish? The would put it way below the $38K of the MDX, still puts my $27.5K Trooper below both of em
-mike
I never understood people who like to hang toys on neckleses on the rear-view mirror, why would someone like to see those things dangling in front all the time?
introduced the current-generation Legacy/Outbacks,
made much ado about having put a "dip" into the
rear window, to aid seeing small objects (kids)
out of the rear window -- then put three large rear headrests to obliterate most of the rear vision. Oh well, best laid plans...
Since Subaru seems committed to offering three
rear headrests, wouldn't make sense to raise the
rear retractable cargo blind height to the top
level of those headrests? Or, at least have several height options to choose from for that cargo blind? The new PT Cruiser and Rav4 have two height levels to choose from, for their cargo covers; so should Subaru.
If Subaru were to offer a raised height option for
the cargo blind, they should also deep-tint the
rear and side quarter windows up to the max height of the cargo blind. I was looking at our new
Forester, and that would be roughly half way up
the window. So, the bottom half of the windows
would be deep-tinted, and the top half would be
clear.
Bob
MDX with freight and PDI -- $48100. CDN
VDC with freight and PDI -- $45495. CDN
Taxes (provincial and federal) on top of that.
Obviously pros and cons for each as others have pointed out (eg., more versatile traction system for the Subie; more versatile holding capacity and better warranty with the Acura), but the prices are pretty comparable, at least here in Canada. Acura has, in effect discounted thir vehicles in Canada: If the MDX stickers for $38K US (as Mike said), with a straight exchange that would work out to about $57K CDN (@ about $1.50 exchange rate).
So the Subie is certainly cheaper in the US; not so much here in Canada.
Randy
opinions?
--Kate (a mechanical engineer wanna-be ;-)
In the States at least, the price difference, not to mention the market position difference, would seem to keep the two cars out of each others' back yards. I would suspect the MDX targets are the Lexus, Infiniti, 4Runner, Mercedes, Expedition, Volvo Cross Country and Audi Allroad.
I would think that only a very astute SUV shopper would consider the HDC alongside the MDX. (By the way, last summer, my lease ran out on one car, and it was time to trade our other car. To replace the company lease car, I went with a TL even though I knew full well the MDX was coming soon, and it would be a great SUV. As for the other replacement car, it's a wintergreen OB 5-sp. Why did I not simply wait for the MDX? Too expensive, no fun to drive (despite its relatively good driveability) long waits for delivery, overpriced, and no fun to drive. Oh, did I mention it would be no fun to drive? The OB is a blast to drive, and the TL is wonderfully smooth.
Would love to hear SOA expound on the market positioning for the HDC and how it fits in -- or stands separate from -- the low 30s--low 40s SUV segment.
For me personally, MDX lost its appeal after I've seen it in person. Heck, even ML looks better.
I personally like the ML better and I tried talking him into expanding his search if he was going to stray away from wagons. Unfortunately, my bro can't shake the intial QC problems with the earlier models. Any input here?
Alan -- His decision suprised me too. He was intent on getting a wagon. His original choice of the VDC was, well, partly due to my selling.
While I agree with you that the MDX is targeting more of the upscale "luxury" SUVs, it's pricing makes it also a contender in the regular SUV market as well. A "base" MDX is well equipped for $34K (MSRP) not too far off of VDC pricing.
Ken
shoppers are like those of us who "live" on these
forums.
People will buy whatever makes them feel good.
And... on first glance the MDX makes a very good
impression. If you a bit dig deeper, well, maybe
that will be a different story.
Subaru's superior AWD may not be enough to sway
those folks. They will think the MDX will get them
through the winter just fine... and it probably
will.
One other thing, when you move into upmarket
brands, you will get a much better warranty. Most
upscale brands offer 4-years/48,000 miles, or
better. The Subaru VDC can't match that.
Bob
Upon intial acceleration (from a dead stop, that is), VTM-4 routes power to the rear wheels. As you pick up speed, power to the rear wheels decreases until the vehicle is eventually 100% FWD. My understanding is that up to 6 mph, the rear unit remains fully energised and gradually disengages until 18 mph when it turns off completely - with the vehicle being in FWD only mode. When cruising, the MDX is 100% FWD until slippage occurs at the front wheels, at which point power is redirected to the rear end.
There is a special "lock" mode which works in 1st, 2nd, and Reverse gears. When engaged, this system allows for even (50/50) power distribution up to 6 mph, similar to locking a centre differential. However, power is progressively shifted back to the front wheels until 18 mph when the lock mode automatically disengages. Acura says that this mode is for extricating the vehicle when stuck, or in low speed/low traction conditions.
From what I've been able to figure out, there is no centre differential. This means that in high traction, low speed conditions with the steering wheel turned, the vehicle can only be in FWD or there will be binding; VTM-4 probably has a front wheel sensor (it already utilises the ABS wheels speed sensors) so that it knows when the front wheels are turned. In low traction conditions, there is enough tyre slippage that binding will not occur even with the front wheels turned. This is, of course, similar to part-time 4WD systems.
From the measurements alone, it would appear that the MDX has a really wide backseat. After all, the vehicle is based on the Honda Odyssey platform. However, a few people remarked that they were surprised that in real life, it wasn't really that noticable (compared to the narrower ML). 2nd row legroom is slightly less than that of the ML, and I think 3rd row seat legroom + comfort is a lot less than the ML's 3rd row seats.
Oh BTW, I've mentioned this before, but Acura says that the 4WD system has to be completely drained, serviced and refilled every 30K miles. The system also has to have a rear differential service at 7500 miles.
Because of the lack of a centre differential, it appears that the both rear wheels are not even engaged simultaneously in turns. So yes, you're right that it can be essentially 3WD in certain situations. There isn't any "blocking" though since the computer will instruct only one clutch pack to engage. The opposite rear wheel will just be freewheeling.
As you can imagine, such a system sounds expensive to fix if anything were to break! Oh, did I mention that VTM-4 is made by Borg Warner, the same company who makes the Isuzu Trooper's TOD 4WD system?
On another note, something that annoys me a little is how Acura claims that VTM-4 is lighter than the competition's 4WD systems (which it is, by something like 50lbs vs. the ML's 4WD system). However, they fail to point out that this is because VTM-4 lacks any low gearing.
Drew/aling
Townhall Community Leader/Vans Conference
Not to mention those service intervals would totally be horrible on the MDX (I'd be changing the fluid more than 1x a year)!
-mike
MDX, X5: Much better.Still premium marquee, so you pay for it with higher insurance and higher repair/parts costs.
Trooper: Old one, yes. New one: rrrrryyyyyyyttttt. As if anyone takes that beast anywhere toougher than the road to the ski resort.
Excursion, Suburban, Tahoe, Expedition: Gm and Ford make $15,000 on average profit on each of these vehicles. Not one in a thousand goes anywhere near a 4x4 situation.
VDC or H6 or LL Bean, Subaru is not in the same league as those rigs. Subie drivers take their rides off road, not just shopping to the mall or to the post office. Let's see...how many MLs or X5s have I seen on dirt roads....gimme a second to think....NONE. Subie drivers care about emissions, unlike Expedition and Tahoe drivers. Those Euro cars and American tanks are for people with lotsa cash, god bless 'em, who are looking for one more way to spend it. And I though this was a Future Models forum? Where's the talk about the Impreza or ST-X?
If you want to see some Subaru pics of where ML, X5 and Tahoe drivers never go, see:
http://www.wave.net/diveguy/Dave/
What this coming from someone who drives a jacked up station wagon? ;-) Honestly, I can't believe you're comparing the ML's looks to the Aztek, but hey, that's your opinion and you're entitled to it, of course. The X5's long hood and straight hood may look more attractive than the ML's shorter slanted hood, but it eats up a heck of a lot of interior room. If you're interested, here is a Design Appraisal on the M-class. The M-class is a ULEV, BTW.
What are your thoughts on the Lexus RX300, BTW? That's even more uh...futuristic than the ML.
Drew/aling
Townhall Community Leader/Vans Conference
Even *GASP* one Range Rover! "Heavens, Biff, we're not stuck are we?" And then, "No, Buffy, I'll just pop in 4WD Low!"
paisan: agree 100% on the rear strut towers and hope the next Forester gets the Outback's rear suspension (and hence a wider cargo area).
The MDX may start at $35k, but good luck finding one for that at a dealer. $38k is more like it, plus whatever markup, plus get on the wait list. For that reason a VDC is a good $7k or so less.
Perhaps not in Canada, but I wonder if that model will come with less equipment?
The biggest difference, though, is the weight. The MDX chimes in at 4300+ lbs. It's got the power to move it, but just do not expect it to be nimble.
While the VDC, at 3700 lbs or so, ain't a feather weight, it's a lot less inertia to overcome if you drive in a sporting manner.
-juice
The local dealership claimed that they could find a MY00 in his color of choice (Azure Blue) with the M1 and sunroof for $2000 off MSRP for a total of US$37,000. Does that sound like a good deal to you?
Anyway, I did have a chance to drive the ML320 they had on their lot. Fit and finish were much better to me compared to the MDX I drove a week ago. Also, the engine seemed much more responsive in the lower RPM band and brake feel was quite good. The ML did show a little more roll than the MDX, but I expected that from it's narrower proportions. Luckily, it has ESP to help you out in those kind of situations.
Overall, I was impressed with what the ML offers. Now I know what you keep raving about! :-)
BTW, do you have any info on tuning/aftermarket parts on the ML320?
Ken
-mike
My feeling is all the older Troopers, Suburbans, Broncos, Blazers and whatnot were TRUCKS not "Alaskan Cadillacs". They were meant to go off-road! The new breed of rigs are meant for comfort before off road capability.
I'm sure some drivers, maybe .5%, take their $40,000+ rides off road. Maybe even more than a gravel road. Troopers have my respect, older ones especially. Newer ones are still setup decently, but still, they're pricey tanks.
I still own a Jeep CJ8 Scrambler. Now that's a rig made for off-roading!
Plus I'm just a Subie fan. Sure I drive a jacked up wagon,,,but I've taken that bizatch places that even people here never go. I use that car's AWD! My web page shows a bit of it, and I can post more pics. I rod it through some killer dirt roads north of LA. I'm planning on getting the ST-X for its higher clearance when it is available.
Finally, I'm sick of a million posts about MBs, BMWs, etc etc etc. This is a Subaru Future Models forum. I'd rather hear more about Subaru than the ML320 or whatever that thing is. I'll go to Future Mercedes models forum for that.
The ultimate "modern" off roader is probably the Defender 90. God knows the Land Cruiser went the way of the opulent and overweight!
Ranting and loving it,
Dave
Regarding the Canadian version of the MDX, my understanding is that it is equipped identically to US models, except the name has been changed slightly to the MDXeh.
Randy
E.G.: Anyone put in a deposit on a the turbo Impreza yet? Will the STX still be supercharged? Any news on the B4 coming to the US?
Things like that.
Even in future models there's always room for other vehicles and comparisons of course. It's all helpful. In the end I really don't care that much I suppose, there's a life besides posting on Edmunds, and I for one am outta here to hit the hills. It's a beautiful Sunday in LA (like always) and the mountains are calling. I'll check in later to see who won the football games
Drew/aling
Townhall Community Leader/Vans Conference
I also think there should be a separate forum for just technical questions, IMO.
What do you think, juice?
Ken
I'd rather see far-ranging discussions on a limited number of forums.
We already get into too much "That's off-topic" "No it isn't" "Forgive me for going off-topic but.." kind of debates.
Some sub-forums that would then be necessary:
* Subaru and Around the World Perspectives
* Subaru and Cross Border Shopping
* Subaru Owners and Their Dogs
* Subaru Owners and Their Neuroses
* The Total Subaru Experience: Should I Change My Name To Dave?
The mind boggles.
And besides, we'd need someone opinionated to determine forum boundaries -- not too many of those kind of Subie fans around here.
Randy
Does that make the Outback or other pseudo-cute-luxo-SUVs bad vehicles? Of course not!! It just means they're made for a different purpose!
FYI, I own an Outback, and I don't classify it as an pseudo-SUV, simply because it doesn't look like one. I like the fact it looks like a wagon. In fact, it's looks awfully similar to a Toyota Sienna minivan (similar two-tone paint job and rear lights) from a distance! (oops - hope I didn't deflate any egos)
-- ash
I do agree that the ML was only designed for medium duty off-roading and not bolder bashing. But, it may interest you to know that stock MLs beat the real "trucks" (such as the Nissan Pathfinder, Isuzu Trooper, etc.) in the 2000 Dakar Rally - 11,000 miles across Africa. The MLs came in 1st, 3rd, and 10th (despite a time penalty) in the T1 unmodified production vehicle class. You can see pictures of the Dakar ML in my Photopoint gallery here: http://go.to/m-class
Drew/aling
Townhall Community Leader/Vans Conference
The point of my response was to put a dose of reality back into the posts, after reading a page-full of testosterone inspired messages.
Also the Trooper hasn't changed since '92 (except for the dash, grille, and fron face, upgraded engine and interior)
-mike
For example, I think that everyone is now fully aware by now that both paisan and aling are extremely loyal Trooper & ML320 owners respectively.
-Frank P.
There are definitely things that could be improved.
-mike
In defense of a colleague, I think he's comparing the VDC with alternatives, trying to decide what specifically sets the VDC apart (my answer: traciton technology, not the H6).
I'd rather not shut out talk about Mercedes and Acura models, simply because it would appear like the VDC cannot compete with those, and I boldly claim that it can (based on value).
As for a tech forum, the Mods topic is pretty close, and we all know the people that could answer your questions are already there. So another topic would just split us up, giving us mod-happy folk two threads to follow.
Another example was the lighting talk, which fell under mods. We all know a friend who wasn't happy about any post that didn't mention more power, and I can certainly understand that! But the fact is, it was helpful to several Crew members, myself included.
Besides, even if only 0.00005% of us Rally Cross (ramon is booked, you GO boy!), perhaps those lights will come in handy.
Still, as a courtesy, please continue to hide posts if you feel that's the proper thing to do.
-juice
Any SUV on the Montana platform, even a Saab, is not a threat. It's too heavy and unsafe.
Randy: keep the humor coming, love the Canadian model name for that Acura!
ash: don't forget, most of the trucks bashing through the rubicon trail are heavily modified, no where close to stock.
We're talking lift kits, big tires, manual locking diffys, power winches, you name it. As they say, the best Jeeps are built, not bought.
Take a peek at what some of the Yahoo Forester club owners have done. Pretty heavy mods!
-juice
Bob
http://www.fhi.co.jp/subaru/
Bob
-mike
Maybe we just need to extend topic's name, to include comparos?
Wasn't talking about the Rubicon trail specifically. Most out-of-the showroom real SUVs (or trucks for that matter) can handle much rougher terrain than a Forestor. Dense bush, deeply rutted trails, shallow water, etc. But since you mention the Rubicon Trail ... Jeep's Grand Cherokee is built to run it STOCK before they let it into a showroom.
The Subaru platforms definitely have their advantages, but there is real benefit to having leaf-springs and ladder-frames when you're doing heavy offroading.
I like the Outback and Forestor (otherwise I wouldn't have bought one) - but these are not vehicles that can compete against even a Jeep TJ out of the showroom in rough terrain.
But they beat it the important areas to me: safety, price, fuel mileage, ride.
-- ash