That's a good question scarwaf. We don't know since no one has driven one yet. Some of the gee-whiz luxury addons in the VDC sound neat, and ~220HP sound neat, and the vehicle dynamics package itself sounds very impressive... but that's all on paper.
I think most of us are waiting anxiously to drive one, even me. (an Impreza RS owner, about as far away from an H6VDC as it gets)
Primative sells skid plates. Subaru used to sell front skidplates, I'm assuming they didn't sell well so they discoed them. I love the standard skid plates on the isuzus...
The H6 has 212hp, not 220.
The pushbar on the forester is 100% cosmetic, if it is hit, it willpush in your bumper and grille, it has no clearance between them and the bumper.
Drew: reminds me of two things. First, I used tie straps to hold up the hitch during install since I worked alone. They're almost as useful as duct tape!
Second, one of those easy-drain oil pan drain plugs (with the on/off knob) plus a service whole in the skid plate would go a long way in making the car more serviceable.
tex: I meant it doesn't function as a skid plate. I also like the name "Roo Bar" since the word "Roo" hints at what we own.
Loved the "discoed" remark. Keep 'em coming.
To VDC or not to VDC. Subject of heated debate!
Pro: it's very unique in that it is rear-wheel drive biased, has four wheel traction and stability control, plus a high-end audio setup. The engine should be plenty peppy; my guess is it'll easily spank the Audi/Passat V6's 190hp. It has the extra ground clearance so it provides a bit of extra utility if you need that type of thing.
Con: it's a Subaru that retails for over $30k, uncharted territory for Soobs. Unproven first-year reliability. There is no three-pointed star or propellor badge on the hood.
#1, I've heard rumor of a new four cylinder based off the new 3.0L six. It's very short, as you know, and thus a four cylinder based on it would be considerably shorter than what we have now. Haven't heard anything about those rumors in some time though.
#2, I doubt it very much. The Impreza WRX will probably be sold very heavily as MT, the Impreza RS already is.
This depends on what you are looking for and how much you want to spend...
Here are some things to think about and my comments: *You think the 2.5L F4 in the 2k OB Ltd. is underpowered? I dont so we got the 2k OB Ltd and really like it. Its a family hauler and its fine for me. It can hold 85mph very well for several hundred miles without much trouble. If you are gonna give me a sport wagon give me AT LEAST 250hp (better yet 300bhp). 212bhp and a curb weight of 3700lbs+ is in the interesting range IF it was a $1000 option. Its not. In the LL Bean version, its $4000 more to get it which may be a better deal if you just want the extra power. The LL Bean version is far more interesting to me. *You must have the McIntosh stereo? I dont need it but I'm sure its fine. I prefer Bose anyway. Its not in the LL Bean edition and for the price difference you could easily put a better one in aftermarket including installation. *You must have the stability control system I'm interested but not for $7000 more. Its not in the LL Bean edition. *You must have better (bigger) front brake rotors (and rear too???)? I'm interested but not for $7000 more. I believe the LL Bean version also gets the bigger brakes. Again, to me the LL Bean version looks like a good/better deal. *You dont mind paying full price or perhaps a little more? From what I understand there will only be 1300 VDC versions available in the US including Alaksa and Hawaii during the 2001 model year so MSRP will probably rule at first (as for most really new models). However, this should not last if you can wait a year or so. I expect to see "dealer prep" options to jack up the price at first. *You dont mind having it loaded? You still need to add a trailer hitch, gate bar, security upgrade, and couple of other things to really have it loaded if you are into that kind of stuff so leave another $1000. *You can get some questions answered like...... Is the same transmission and drive train the same as used in the 2.5L H4? I'm dont think the transmission and drivetrain were not upgraded (but I'm really not sure). If this is the case then its no longer overbuilt. If it has been made beefier its a mute point. A transmission that was bullet proof taking approx. 160ft/lbs of torque MAY not live as long taking over 200ft/lbs. *You dont mind the first year of production. Subaru makes pretty good stuff but you never know. I suppose that one could get the 100k 7 year extended warranty for $1500 or so. Again the LL Bean version plus the warranty would be less than the VDC. *Probably take a small hit in gas mileage too but I dont think this will be significant. This this would not be enough to turn me away from the extra power. *Premium gas is recommended so if you do what they say then its also gonna cost more. Its a couple of hundred bucks a year the way I drive and over time it would annoy me. Although, I dont think that premium is absolutely required so I would probably run an eighth of a tank of 87 and see if I got any detonation first. If I did, only then would I run any premium grade. This by itself is not enough to turn me away from the extra power.
Really, as several people have mentioned, we all have to wait to see how it performs. 212hp sounds nice but will it be like the 250hp in the 300M (probably closer to 220hp) or the 180hp in the Saturn LW2 (probably closer to 220hp). If its really around 212hp and 200ft/lbs of torque it should be about 2 seconds faster to 60mph than the current OB with the auto. Thats significant in my book. We can probably a real world 9.5sec to 60mph or 8.5sec in the magazines with some strip tricks.
250 horses w/AWD? Step up to an S4 but be ready to drop $40 grand. 300 and you're talking A6 4.2, and probably $50k. And neither is available as a wagon.
I think all Legacys got the bigger front brakes for MY2001, but the VDC's are even bigger. Is that right?
Too bad the Audi RS4 is not gonna make it to the US. If I'm not mistaken that is a 350-400bhp wagon.
I would pay $45-55k for a AWD 300bhp wagon. I can't right now but I'm good as saving my pennies and we dont have kids (just dogs and cats). At under $40k I would buy it now and eat cereal and cup-o-noodles for the next 5 years. I would also buy a 300bhp minivan for $40k. I hear Dodge/DC will have one with close to 250bhp soon and I'm gonna test drive it as soon as it gets here. I like utility and I like power. Can you imagine.....A Windstar/Sienna/or which ever family truckster you want pulling a 7.0sec 0-60.
I think the RS4 has the 2.7T engine, same as the S4 sedan, and actually only 250hp. It's light weight, which is what makes it quick.
My bet is the Dodge van will have more like 240 horses and hit 60 in closer to 8 seconds.
The H6 makes 212hp out of the box, though. They'll tune it to make more power eventually, probably 225 or so.
Wouldn't it be nice to see a LPT (light pressure turbo) VDC model, with 250 horses and stump-pulling low-end torque? When the H6 makes it to the rest of the line, the VDC would need something to better distinguish it.
GM is talking about a bigger-than-Outback SUW with 3 rows of seats, with more power from the H6 (225 sounds good). So we know it's possible.
Can't wait to see what's in store.
-juice
PS You DINKs make me remember the good ole days. The wife wants to quit with the next pregnancy, so we'll become SITCOMs (single income, two children, oppressive mortgage).
Drew: I have a 2000 OB. The plastic under cover is for aerodynamics, to block mud & water out, and for masking some engine noise to the outside world (it has built in sound padding). I know this because I took it off and looked at it after some intense & muddy offroading --it was slighly damaged in front because it curves/bulges downwards more than it needs to, I think, and it had gained about 15 pounds of mud on the inside through some holes in front! There is very good front diffy protection already, via a thick steel plate. I'm going to leave the cover off and design a skidplate to just protect the oil pan. The commercial skidplates I've seen are good for water, mud, and flying gravel, but not good for direct impacts --ie: they will bend if you land on a large rock. I'd like something closer in beefiness to the rear differential protector, which does not deflect even when high-centered with most of the weight of the rear of the car on it (I've done this!). Anybody interested? It'll be cheaper if I have a few made.
Where can I get them on/off oil drain plugs that Juice mentioned? That sounds like a very handy thing to have. Grand Auto, Kragen's, and Pep Boys don't have 'em.
Thanks NEMATODE for your input. It's very helpful. Another couple of questions I'd like to throw out there for anyone who might have an answer are--Do you think the new VDC suspenion is that much better than the active all wheel drive? Is it worth the extra cost? How good is the active all wheel drive in snow and ice? Also, as far as the H6 added power I do think I would need it because 4 or 5 times a year I drive in the California Sierras. I live in Calif. and I'm up and about and all around the state plus Wyoming, Montana and Idaho. I'm talking about fall, winter and spring. Scarwaf
The September issue of "Automobile magazine" (page 22) writes "Subaru's new 3.0 liter flat-six equipped Outback has gotten off to a strong start in Japan. That's a good thing, as Subaru is expecting this engine to power much of its American lineup. Of the engine's initial 2000-unit-per-month production, America will be taking 1300 motors. In addition to this fall's new Outback, a new SUV will get the engine by 2002, perhaps a production version of the ST-X pickup. Also, rumors are circulating in Japan that Subaru may redo the six-cylinder SVX, in hopes of taking on the Audi TT".
Further, on page 70, "Automobile magazine" states "Early next spring, Subaru will launch its redesigned, sleeker Impreza and will at last give Americans a turbocharged performance model, probably with about 220 bhp, which equals the European-and-Japanese-spec Impreza Turbos that have become legends. The new Impreza will be available only as a wagon and sedan".
And, finally, JUICE, the magazine asks "How about sticking the new six in" the Forester!
I dont really understand your suspension / AWD question....BUT I take a crack at it. 1) VDC suspenion? I dont know what they did to revalve or change spring rates and stuff like that. The current OB floats too much for my tastes but its my wifes and she loves the ride. She hated the ride in the GT wagon and liked the GT much better. Its a personal preference. They may have done nothing. Juice may know...... 2) AWD? They system is basically the same from what I understand. BUT the VDC will use the ABS system to further refine the AWD (adding stability control). Basically, it uses sensors (same as the ABS sensors?) to look for difference in rotation between the 4 wheels and used the ABS system to slow the wheels that need it to keep you going where you are pointed. I would get it if it were a $500 option. Its not. You will have to get the $32k+ VDC to have it. So I dont think its worth the extra cash. My bet is that it will show up as an option on other Subarus in a few years. GM has one called Stabilitrack (sp?) or something like that in the new Intrigue and Aurora. My inlaws have an Intrigue with the new system and I was really impressed with its performance. I'm sure that Subarus system will be just as good but apply to all 4 wheels. 3) Snow and ice? FANTASTIC. I was driving our OB through 8in of snow 3 days after we got it (just in time!!). Its pretty difficult to get it stuck. Ice is a different story. AWD will help but one really need chains or tires with studs for optimal performance regardless of vehicle. I also took our OB to some snow covered trails this winter and had a great time going up hills and messing around. I followed an Explorer that was using 4WD and at the end of the trail he looked shocked that I stayed with him. I know this because......he said he was trying to get me stuck and was impressed that the Subaru kept moving at all times!!!! 4) Added power? More power is never a bad thing!!!!! The problem is in this case I dont think its worth the extra cash. The LL Bean version may be but we will all have to be patient. I drove our OB through PA (Pittsburgh) in blazing heat through the mountains and its performance was OK but not great. With 2 people, a dog, and several hundred pounds of stuff, with the AC on, it got a little doggy on some hills but nothing serious. All it needed was 4000-4500rpm in 3rd gear for the hills. Basically it was fine but not impressive. The difference will be: If you want to just zoom up hills you will have to push the 2.5L F4 much harder than the 3.0L F6. They will both get there but the more powerful F6 will have an easier time.
If I simply wanted more power I would have our OB either supercharged (less than $4000 fully installed including labor) or turbo charged (probably around the same price). The price for the supercharger is through Road Rage Motorsports near St. Louis. Both kits are available but would probably (most likely) void the warranty completely.
The RS4 does have the same basic 2.7L engine twin-turbo engine with the torsen AWD system BUT puts out 280 kW which I think translates to something like 380bhp!!! It does this with larger turbos, some new super special exhaust, and some racing parts. Without the 250kph governer its supposed to be able to reach 300kph which would be 180mph. On its way there it can also pull a sub 5sec 0-60. Most important of all.....its a wagon. Why dont they bring something really cool like that here?
Its true, we have no children and I wanted to get minivan. My wife simply REFUSES to drive one so she got the OB. So are you telling me that if a company released a minivan with:
300-350bhp HID lamps 17in rims 3 rows of seats 6sp manual AWD adjustable ride height 14in front/13in rear 4 piston brake system for $40k
you would not be interested? At all? (Pretend it would look like the Sienna or Windstar with an attitude problem) Not even a little?
Not even a little, I like cars that handle. Most of the owners here do too, that's why they drive Outbacks and Foresters instead of minivans and SUVs. The gas mileage thing helps too.
Like Colin Chapman said, "add lightness". If I wanted fast and AWD at any cost I would driving a 3200lb Eclipse GSX right now instead of my 2800lb Impreza RS. (The other problem with the Eclipse is horrid driving position and visibility, the Impreza wins hands down.)
I disagree with nematode about the VDC not being worth the money. As someone who owns two vehicles with AWD + stability control + traction control, I can tell you that I'm so impressed that I'd probably never buy another vehicle without this combination. Both of these vehicles are easily the most stable and easy to drive AWD vehicles - in snow - that I've ever owned.
The addition of traction control to the already very capable Subaru AWD system makes the wagon even more effective on slippery surfaces than before. With VTD/VDC, the wagon will be able to keep moving, even if only one wheel has traction. You can forget about it ever becoming a $500 option anytime soon. GM's Stabilitrack is far less advanced than Subaru's system and doesn't incorporate 4 wheel traction control. It is also not very effective (too slow to react) according to Consumer Reports' tests. No doubt, the Subaru system will be much better.
Note that the Stabilitrack fitted to the Cadillacs and Corvettes is different and much more effective than the system on the Olds/Buicks/Pontiacs.
The only place we disagree is on the price. I would like to have a vehicle with AWD and stability/traction control but not for that much more. The major difference between the Cadillac and Olds systems are extra sensors and software upgrades. They could easily do it for $500 if they wanted but that would take away from their upscale stuff. Its the same thing with ABS. The Corvette has a newer version of the ABS "software" which will eventually filter down. Lots of upgrades are like that and dont filter down until the upscale brands have even cooler stuff.
"It will never happen (tincup47)" Yea, but if it did happened they would sell at least one. I take that back one does exist...The Kenny Brown Motorsports Ford Windstar and its $55-60k and all aftermarket. Thats a little much for 250hp.
The VDC debate will not die. And we haven't even driven one yet!
I don't recall any changed in the suspension, at least not off the top of my head. But the stability control aids handling, and traction would be ideal. It's cutting edge technology you only see on the top luxury cars like Cadillac and Mercedes, intended for a discriminating buyer willing to pay for the absolute best without compromise.
The LL Bean is much more mainstream, and will probably get 80% of the H6s. So for every Drew or juiceman (i.e. VDC fan), there are about 4 LL Bean customers. Sounds about right, even for this relatively skeptical group.
Dave: I'd be interested in that skid plate, but we have different models. I'm also on the wrong coast!
scarwaf: Subarus are great on the snow. I have a '98 Forester that doesn't even have the rear LSD, and cannot imagine anything better suited. I had a ball last winter in a 12" storm.
A lot of trucks have the traction, but are top-heavy. Many cars have AWD, but not the ground clearance of the Forester. Even the base Legacy L has 6.3", close to what an Explorer has.
Don: thanks for the scoop. I think we know more than Automobile, though. The new SUV will probably actually be the SUW. And the SVX would have to change a lot in character to target the TT. The SVX was a grand tourer, not a sports car or roadster. Not that I'd mind a new SVX in that fashion.
nematode: I'll sign up for one of those vans, though I couldn't really afford it. I'm thinking in terms of the F1 van I think Renault made(?).
Just for clarification, VDC uses a torsen differential (similar to that found in the Audi Quattro system) to split torque. As Mike pointed out, it is rear-wheel biased. This toresen-type AWD system is currently available as a separate product in Japanese Subarus as VTD (variable torque distribution).
VDC builds on VTD by adding various sensors (motion, steering wheel, braking, throttle) that feed into a software map which in turn control the ABS system as well as front and rear differentials. The VDC system is similar in purpose to the ESP program in MBs.
To put it simply, VTD is similar to the current MT AWD system. It is always on, but it's passive. VDC adds an active component to VTD by adding the ability of a software program to choose the right distribution of power to any wheel for optimal performance. VTD is much different from the current AT AWD system in that it allows for fully independent control of each wheel.
Are you sure that the VDC wagon uses a Torsen limited slip centre differential (a la Audi Quattro)? This seems rather odd since that's what the 4 wheel traction control is supposed to take care of.
My ML has an open planetary centre differential that splits the power 48/52. 4ETS creates artificial resistance and hence minimal power is leaked out - the ratio stays basically the same at all times. I would've thought that this would be similar to the VDC wagon's setup.
From the Subaru press release: "The Outback H6-3.0 VDC provides unequaled traction and stability using Variable Torque Distribution (VTD) All-Wheel Drive, working in conjunction with the Vehicle Dynamics Control (VDC) system. The VTD and VDC systems operate simultaneously to help maintain traction and stability, and take corrective action before the driver even notices.
The new VTD automatic transmission uses an electronically controlled hydraulic transfer clutch that works with a planetary gear-type center differential to control power distribution between the front and rear wheels. Under most conditions the VTD system splits the power 45 percent front and 55 percent rear. The slight rear-wheel bias enhances the performance driving feel, and the VTD system can vary the power split as needed to respond to road conditions.
Like Active All-Wheel Drive, VTD adjusts the front/rear power split, always helping to ensure that the wheels with the best traction receive the most power.
Vehicle Dynamics Control (VDC) works together with VTD All-Wheel Drive and four-wheel electronic traction control to help maintain directional stability under all driving conditions. The system monitors vehicle stability by continually measuring inputs such as steering angle, yaw rate, lateral g-force and individual wheel speed.
Using that input data, VDC can tell whether the car is going where the driver is steering it. To correct understeer (front-wheel drift), VDC applies split-second rake pressure to the inside rear wheel to help pull the car back on the desired course. To correct oversteer (rear-wheel drift), VDC applies split-second brake pressure to the outside front wheel to bring the rear of the vehicle back in line. Under certain oversteer conditions, VDC can even direct the All-Wheel Drive system to transfer more power to the front wheels. If the situation requires greater intervention, VDC can also direct the engine control module to turn off one or more fuel injectors to reduce power.
The Outback H6-3.0 VDC system adds another layer of driving control -- an all-wheel, all-speed Traction Control System (TCS). Should any wheel spin on a slippery surface, VDC will apply braking force to that wheel to help keep wheel spin under control. Depending on the traction situation, the VDC system can instruct the engine control module to reduce power by turning off one or more fuel injectors. The Outback H6-3.0 VDC can maintain traction even if three wheels are slipping on ice or snow, without the need for a limited-slip differential."
Perhaps (if the system does use a Torsen LSD) this setup is why Subaru said that their AWD system on the VDC wagon uses VTD first, before invoking the traction control. In some ways, this is actually better for on-road driving than the MB 4-matic/BMW AWD system.
However, think MB may skipped it because power transfers fore and aft when offroading can be disadvantageous for stability reasons. A permanent ratio is better to avoid any surprises (like part time 4WD - locked centre differential).
Pretty high tech stuff, guys. It works with both braking and by cutting power. Only the best traction control devices use both of these means.
I didn't think it was a Torsen either. Torsens are fantastic, it's just that they're heavy and expensive. The less powerful Passat 4Motion is rated at 17/24 mpg on mandatory premium fuel, while I expect the VDC to beat that easily (my guess is 20/25) despite 22 more horses and only a recommendation to use premium.
Yes, Torsens are heavy and expensive. However, since they're mechanical devices, they react nearly instantaneously to tire slip. That would make traction control a little redundant, I think. However, it is still possible that a Torsen is used on the VDC wagon. After all, Subaru did say that the 4ETS is only applied after VTD doesn't restore stability and traction quickily enough. High tech stuff indeed!
Let me tell you though, if a Torsen is on the VDC wagon, that would certainly justify, well, or at least explain the premium price over the L.L. Bean wagon.
We agree, then. Audi actually uses three diffys, center, front, and rear, which is ideal in terms of traction but not in terms of cost, weight, or fuel efficiency.
They'll likely drop them eventually, since few folks understand the benefits. Look at the TT - it uses VW's system, and hardly anyone even noticed (they're too busy drooling at the gorgeous brushed aluminum interior).
The funny thing is the traction control allows the VDC to drop the rear LSD, so mechanically at least it's actually more simple.
I think I will purchase a VDC just so I don't have to drive anymore. With a system like that, it sounds like Autopilot is only a few months away. Chauffer anyone? (Yes, I like to drive, but in LA traffic, chauffers are a definite plus) -Leif
Don't forget the variable muffler on the VDC, higher restriction @ low RPM, then opens up at higher RPMs... I don't want to have to replace that puppy.
I want to thank all you guys for the information and input you gave me. It's been great corresponding with you. I think I'll wait till November and purchase the H6 VDC. At this point in time I don't think Subaru will put out a poor new product, especially when entering the world of Audi and Volvo. They would have too much to lose and a lot to gain with their new product. I'll keep viewing your comments to keep up to date. Scarwaf
I saw in the paper today that MB is running a promotion for their ML 320 Classic. The retail here in Canada is $47990. I didn't realize that an MB could be had so relatively cheaply, only about $3000 CDN (about $2000 US)more than a VDC.
Now, I don't know MB models enough to know if this is a complete stripper or not; but the initial price difference is intriguing. I remember that MB's reviews were very good when they first came out, although the reliability was a problem, at least in the first year.
Maybe our resident MB expert could comment on whether or not the 320 Classic is a natural competitor for the VDC...
Perhaps they are, but the ML is a true-blue SUV, and the VDC is a more of a hybrid wagon.
The ML is the bargain in the Benz line, though. Think about it - it costs LESS than the C280, it's roomier, holds more cargo, has a bigger engine and 4WD! Maybe because they build it in Alabama, I dunno.
Leather, heated seats, metallic paint, and the moonroof are extra cost options (about $3k), but still it's a good value.
IMO, it's a step-up alternative to a JGC or loaded Explorer, though. Subaru lists Volvo and VW/Audi wagons as the competition.
Not to bag on Drew, but it seems like every time I read an article about the ML they're bagging on the build quality. Something about throwing it together, selling it cheap and still making profit hand over fist.
I live in St. Louis, saw the post about Road Rage Sports, located near St. Louis, being able to put a supercharger (turbocharger) on an Outback. They're listed in the St. Louis phone book with an address on South Lindbergh boulevard but a call to the listed number produced only a second number, which was listed as out of service.
Had a 1984 Thunderbird turbo coupe, and it's fun to imagine what a charged Subaru engine could do. Downside of that T-bird Turbo -- during the three years of my lease (thank God, it was a full maintenance lease) it spent a total of seven weeks in the shop.
The MB is more of a Hybrid Mini-van-SUV, I looks like a mini-van, drives like a minivan but is billed as an SUV so that people don't get the stigma of owning a mini-van. I don't understand the stigma personally.
WRT reliability, yes, the older models (especially '98) had problems because of a number of factors - inexperienced and new local workforce, new factory, MB's inexperience with local US part suppliers, and of course, cost cutting. Make no mistake that the ML is not a CDN$100K S-class, or even the $70K E-class. For '00 though, MB made huge improvements and I believe that it is almost (about 90-95%) up to the standard of my E-class now, and much cheaper to boot!
FWIW, MB doesn't really make very much on the M-class. The figure is not even close to what Ford makes on their Expeditions/Excursions. The M-class was made so that previous MB car customers wouldn't "defect" to other companies if they wanted an SUV. It was also intended to be a stepping stone, if you will, for other more expensive MB products. MB figured that people were willing to pay a little for for the cache of the three pointed star over a JGC/Ford Explorer Limited, and they were right!
Randy, the ML320 Classic is a very good value for money, but it is somewhat of a stripper. It comes with split MB-Tex (synthetic leather)/Cloth seats, has an optional moonroof, privacy glass, etc. It does come with all of the active and passive safety equipment that the $90K ML55 has though. This means 4 side impact airbags in addition to the regular 2 front bags, dual mode ABS, ESP/4ETS, etc; MB never skimps on safety equipment. MB also includes the MCS (Multi-component system) for that is GPS ready.
I'm not sure if it is a direct competitor to the VDC wagon though. After all, as juice said, it is an SUV (but not the traditional type like the Ford Explorer) and I think that people who look at the Outbacks are considering SUV alternatives.
Juice, building the ML in Alabama is definitely cheaper because it is not subjected to the import tariff, as the other German/Austrian made MB cars are. This is part of the reason why MB cars have traditionally been expensive.
Mike, the ML doesn't drive like a minivan. Not even close; I own a minivan, so I know. It drives like a high up C-class or E-class, and handles close to one too. It does ride firmer though, due partly to its body-on-frame construction, as well as the way the suspension is tuned. MB's intention was to blend in a car/minivan/SUV all in one. The high minivanish rear is what gives it tons of cargo room, as well as the ability to seat two reasonable size adults in the 3rd row full-sized seats. Also, not many minivans can tow 5000 lbs.
MB may debut a luxury minivan based on the next generation W164 M-class (which will move to unibody construction). This van is not supposed to appear until around 2006 though, which is about two years after the next gen ML arrives.
Regarding the issue of SUV/Minivan/Station Wagon: I think there's significant competition between segments.
If you strip away the labels, you're left with a lot more similarities than differences.
Basically, Hybrid buyers (of the type we've been talking about) want:
1) AWD or similar, with active and passive safety systems;
2) Cargo space and utility;
3) Fairly decent performance and handling.
I think the Subaru, MB, RX 300, Volvo XC, and Passat AWD Wagon, all meet these criteria to varying degrees, and would therefore be competing for a similar audience.
Why would a person preemptively rule out one of these vehicles, just because it is labelled either a "station wagon" or an "SUV"? If it meets your needs, it's in the running.
You could add the Pontiac Aztec to that list of hybrids. Well, at least they're TRYING to attract the same audience.
Also, the Audi Allroad Quattro is more of a hybrid than the Passat is. The latter is just an AWD wagon.
ML has improved steadily, and in fact the Jeep Grand Cherokee has much worse reliability scores. Also, it may be a function of expectations - MB owners expect the absolute best, so what's fine in a Ford or Chevy is not necessarily so in a Benz.
The VDC should be able to outrun an ML320 pretty easily, though. The ML430 will probably be a closer match in terms of performance.
When I need to wake up after a long boring meeting at work, I got to Pontiac Aztek thread on Edmunds. Talk about 'love or hate' passion! Subaru Crew is sooo civil as compared to Aztek's foes and woes.
Comments
I think most of us are waiting anxiously to drive one, even me. (an Impreza RS owner, about as far away from an H6VDC as it gets)
-Colin
Subaru used to sell front skidplates, I'm assuming they didn't sell well so they discoed them.
I love the standard skid plates on the isuzus...
The H6 has 212hp, not 220.
The pushbar on the forester is 100% cosmetic, if it is hit, it willpush in your bumper and grille, it has no clearance between them and the bumper.
-mike
Second, one of those easy-drain oil pan drain plugs (with the on/off knob) plus a service whole in the skid plate would go a long way in making the car more serviceable.
tex: I meant it doesn't function as a skid plate. I also like the name "Roo Bar" since the word "Roo" hints at what we own.
Loved the "discoed" remark. Keep 'em coming.
To VDC or not to VDC. Subject of heated debate!
Pro: it's very unique in that it is rear-wheel drive biased, has four wheel traction and stability control, plus a high-end audio setup. The engine should be plenty peppy; my guess is it'll easily spank the Audi/Passat V6's 190hp. It has the extra ground clearance so it provides a bit of extra utility if you need that type of thing.
Con: it's a Subaru that retails for over $30k, uncharted territory for Soobs. Unproven first-year reliability. There is no three-pointed star or propellor badge on the hood.
-juice
My next question is, Has the H6 been around in Japan or is this its first world wide debut?
Thanks,
Scarwaf
Japan has had turbos, but no H6 recently.
-juice
- Will the turbo engine be new or the current EJ20?
- Will it get VTD/VDC or retain the current AWD system?
Ken
#1, I've heard rumor of a new four cylinder based off the new 3.0L six. It's very short, as you know, and thus a four cylinder based on it would be considerably shorter than what we have now. Haven't heard anything about those rumors in some time though.
#2, I doubt it very much. The Impreza WRX will probably be sold very heavily as MT, the Impreza RS already is.
-Colin
-juice
Here are some things to think about and my comments:
*You think the 2.5L F4 in the 2k OB Ltd. is underpowered?
I dont so we got the 2k OB Ltd and really like it. Its a family hauler and its fine for me. It can hold 85mph very well for several hundred miles without much trouble. If you are gonna give me a sport wagon give me AT LEAST 250hp (better yet 300bhp). 212bhp and a curb weight of 3700lbs+ is in the interesting range IF it was a $1000 option. Its not. In the LL Bean version, its $4000 more to get it which may be a better deal if you just want the extra power. The LL Bean version is far more interesting to me.
*You must have the McIntosh stereo?
I dont need it but I'm sure its fine. I prefer Bose anyway. Its not in the LL Bean edition and for the price difference you could easily put a better one in aftermarket including installation.
*You must have the stability control system
I'm interested but not for $7000 more. Its not in the LL Bean edition.
*You must have better (bigger) front brake rotors (and rear too???)?
I'm interested but not for $7000 more. I believe the LL Bean version also gets the bigger brakes. Again, to me the LL Bean version looks like a good/better deal.
*You dont mind paying full price or perhaps a little more?
From what I understand there will only be 1300 VDC versions available in the US including Alaksa and Hawaii during the 2001 model year so MSRP will probably rule at first (as for most really new models). However, this should not last if you can wait a year or so. I expect to see "dealer prep" options to jack up the price at first.
*You dont mind having it loaded?
You still need to add a trailer hitch, gate bar, security upgrade, and couple of other things to really have it loaded if you are into that kind of stuff so leave another $1000.
*You can get some questions answered like......
Is the same transmission and drive train the same as used in the 2.5L H4? I'm dont think the transmission and drivetrain were not upgraded (but I'm really not sure). If this is the case then its no longer overbuilt. If it has been made beefier its a mute point. A transmission that was bullet proof taking approx. 160ft/lbs of torque MAY not live as long taking over 200ft/lbs.
*You dont mind the first year of production.
Subaru makes pretty good stuff but you never know. I suppose that one could get the 100k 7 year extended warranty for $1500 or so. Again the LL Bean version plus the warranty would be less than the VDC.
*Probably take a small hit in gas mileage too but I dont think this will be significant. This this would not be enough to turn me away from the extra power.
*Premium gas is recommended so if you do what they say then its also gonna cost more. Its a couple of hundred bucks a year the way I drive and over time it would annoy me. Although, I dont think that premium is absolutely required so I would probably run an eighth of a tank of 87 and see if I got any detonation first. If I did, only then would I run any premium grade. This by itself is not enough to turn me away from the extra power.
Really, as several people have mentioned, we all have to wait to see how it performs. 212hp sounds nice but will it be like the 250hp in the 300M (probably closer to 220hp) or the 180hp in the Saturn LW2 (probably closer to 220hp). If its really around 212hp and 200ft/lbs of torque it should be about 2 seconds faster to 60mph than the current OB with the auto. Thats significant in my book. We can probably a real world 9.5sec to 60mph or 8.5sec in the magazines with some strip tricks.
I think all Legacys got the bigger front brakes for MY2001, but the VDC's are even bigger. Is that right?
-juice
-juice
I would pay $45-55k for a AWD 300bhp wagon. I can't right now but I'm good as saving my pennies and we dont have kids (just dogs and cats). At under $40k I would buy it now and eat cereal and cup-o-noodles for the next 5 years.
I would also buy a 300bhp minivan for $40k. I hear Dodge/DC will have one with close to 250bhp soon and I'm gonna test drive it as soon as it gets here. I like utility and I like power. Can you imagine.....A Windstar/Sienna/or which ever family truckster you want pulling a 7.0sec 0-60.
I just cant help myself.......
I'm in the 2 income, no kids situation and one of my goals in life is to NEVER own a proper sedan, much less a van.
-Colin
My bet is the Dodge van will have more like 240 horses and hit 60 in closer to 8 seconds.
The H6 makes 212hp out of the box, though. They'll tune it to make more power eventually, probably 225 or so.
Wouldn't it be nice to see a LPT (light pressure turbo) VDC model, with 250 horses and stump-pulling low-end torque? When the H6 makes it to the rest of the line, the VDC would need something to better distinguish it.
GM is talking about a bigger-than-Outback SUW with 3 rows of seats, with more power from the H6 (225 sounds good). So we know it's possible.
Can't wait to see what's in store.
-juice
PS You DINKs make me remember the good ole days. The wife wants to quit with the next pregnancy, so we'll become SITCOMs (single income, two children, oppressive mortgage).
There is very good front diffy protection already, via a thick steel plate.
I'm going to leave the cover off and design a skidplate to just protect the oil pan. The commercial skidplates I've seen are good for water, mud, and flying gravel, but not good for direct impacts --ie: they will bend if you land on a large rock. I'd like something closer in beefiness to the rear differential protector, which does not deflect even when high-centered with most of the weight of the rear of the car on it (I've done this!).
Anybody interested? It'll be cheaper if I have a few made.
Where can I get them on/off oil drain plugs that Juice mentioned? That sounds like a very handy thing to have. Grand Auto, Kragen's, and Pep Boys don't have 'em.
Dave
Scarwaf
Further, on page 70, "Automobile magazine" states "Early next spring, Subaru will launch its redesigned, sleeker Impreza and will at last give Americans a turbocharged performance model, probably with about 220 bhp, which equals the European-and-Japanese-spec Impreza Turbos that have become legends. The new Impreza will be available only as a wagon and sedan".
And, finally, JUICE, the magazine asks "How about sticking the new six in" the Forester!
Don
1) VDC suspenion?
I dont know what they did to revalve or change spring rates and stuff like that. The current OB floats too much for my tastes but its my wifes and she loves the ride. She hated the ride in the GT wagon and liked the GT much better. Its a personal preference. They may have done nothing. Juice may know......
2) AWD?
They system is basically the same from what I understand. BUT the VDC will use the ABS system to further refine the AWD (adding stability control). Basically, it uses sensors (same as the ABS sensors?) to look for difference in rotation between the 4 wheels and used the ABS system to slow the wheels that need it to keep you going where you are pointed. I would get it if it were a $500 option. Its not. You will have to get the $32k+ VDC to have it. So I dont think its worth the extra cash. My bet is that it will show up as an option on other Subarus in a few years.
GM has one called Stabilitrack (sp?) or something like that in the new Intrigue and Aurora. My inlaws have an Intrigue with the new system and I was really impressed with its performance. I'm sure that Subarus system will be just as good but apply to all 4 wheels.
3) Snow and ice?
FANTASTIC. I was driving our OB through 8in of snow 3 days after we got it (just in time!!). Its pretty difficult to get it stuck. Ice is a different story. AWD will help but one really need chains or tires with studs for optimal performance regardless of vehicle. I also took our OB to some snow covered trails this winter and had a great time going up hills and messing around. I followed an Explorer that was using 4WD and at the end of the trail he looked shocked that I stayed with him. I know this because......he said he was trying to get me stuck and was impressed that the Subaru kept moving at all times!!!!
4) Added power?
More power is never a bad thing!!!!! The problem is in this case I dont think its worth the extra cash. The LL Bean version may be but we will all have to be patient. I drove our OB through PA (Pittsburgh) in blazing heat through the mountains and its performance was OK but not great. With 2 people, a dog, and several hundred pounds of stuff, with the AC on, it got a little doggy on some hills but nothing serious. All it needed was 4000-4500rpm in 3rd gear for the hills. Basically it was fine but not impressive. The difference will be: If you want to just zoom up hills you will have to push the 2.5L F4 much harder than the 3.0L F6. They will both get there but the more powerful F6 will have an easier time.
If I simply wanted more power I would have our OB either supercharged (less than $4000 fully installed including labor) or turbo charged (probably around the same price). The price for the supercharger is through Road Rage Motorsports near St. Louis. Both kits are available but would probably (most likely) void the warranty completely.
The RS4 does have the same basic 2.7L engine twin-turbo engine with the torsen AWD system BUT puts out 280 kW which I think translates to something like 380bhp!!! It does this with larger turbos, some new super special exhaust, and some racing parts. Without the 250kph governer its supposed to be able to reach 300kph which would be 180mph. On its way there it can also pull a sub 5sec 0-60. Most important of all.....its a wagon. Why dont they bring something really cool like that here?
300-350bhp
HID lamps
17in rims
3 rows of seats
6sp manual
AWD
adjustable ride height
14in front/13in rear 4 piston brake system
for $40k
you would not be interested? At all? (Pretend it would look like the Sienna or Windstar with an attitude problem) Not even a little?
Like Colin Chapman said, "add lightness". If I wanted fast and AWD at any cost I would driving a 3200lb Eclipse GSX right now instead of my 2800lb Impreza RS. (The other problem with the Eclipse is horrid driving position and visibility, the Impreza wins hands down.)
-Colin
The addition of traction control to the already very capable Subaru AWD system makes the wagon even more effective on slippery surfaces than before. With VTD/VDC, the wagon will be able to keep moving, even if only one wheel has traction. You can forget about it ever becoming a $500 option anytime soon. GM's Stabilitrack is far less advanced than Subaru's system and doesn't incorporate 4 wheel traction control. It is also not very effective (too slow to react) according to Consumer Reports' tests. No doubt, the Subaru system will be much better.
Note that the Stabilitrack fitted to the Cadillacs and Corvettes is different and much more effective than the system on the Olds/Buicks/Pontiacs.
Drew
Ross
The major difference between the Cadillac and Olds systems are extra sensors and software upgrades. They could easily do it for $500 if they wanted but that would take away from their upscale stuff. Its the same thing with ABS. The Corvette has a newer version of the ABS "software" which will eventually filter down. Lots of upgrades are like that and dont filter down until the upscale brands have even cooler stuff.
"It will never happen (tincup47)"
Yea, but if it did happened they would sell at least one. I take that back one does exist...The Kenny Brown Motorsports Ford Windstar and its $55-60k and all aftermarket. Thats a little much for 250hp.
-mike
I don't recall any changed in the suspension, at least not off the top of my head. But the stability control aids handling, and traction would be ideal. It's cutting edge technology you only see on the top luxury cars like Cadillac and Mercedes, intended for a discriminating buyer willing to pay for the absolute best without compromise.
The LL Bean is much more mainstream, and will probably get 80% of the H6s. So for every Drew or juiceman (i.e. VDC fan), there are about 4 LL Bean customers. Sounds about right, even for this relatively skeptical group.
Dave: I'd be interested in that skid plate, but we have different models. I'm also on the wrong coast!
scarwaf: Subarus are great on the snow. I have a '98 Forester that doesn't even have the rear LSD, and cannot imagine anything better suited. I had a ball last winter in a 12" storm.
A lot of trucks have the traction, but are top-heavy. Many cars have AWD, but not the ground clearance of the Forester. Even the base Legacy L has 6.3", close to what an Explorer has.
Don: thanks for the scoop. I think we know more than Automobile, though. The new SUV will probably actually be the SUW. And the SVX would have to change a lot in character to target the TT. The SVX was a grand tourer, not a sports car or roadster. Not that I'd mind a new SVX in that fashion.
nematode: I'll sign up for one of those vans, though I couldn't really afford it. I'm thinking in terms of the F1 van I think Renault made(?).
-juice
VDC builds on VTD by adding various sensors (motion, steering wheel, braking, throttle) that feed into a software map which in turn control the ABS system as well as front and rear differentials. The VDC system is similar in purpose to the ESP program in MBs.
To put it simply, VTD is similar to the current MT AWD system. It is always on, but it's passive. VDC adds an active component to VTD by adding the ability of a software program to choose the right distribution of power to any wheel for optimal performance. VTD is much different from the current AT AWD system in that it allows for fully independent control of each wheel.
My ML has an open planetary centre differential that splits the power 48/52. 4ETS creates artificial resistance and hence minimal power is leaked out - the ratio stays basically the same at all times. I would've thought that this would be similar to the VDC wagon's setup.
From the Subaru press release:
"The Outback H6-3.0 VDC provides unequaled traction and stability using Variable Torque Distribution (VTD) All-Wheel Drive, working in conjunction with the Vehicle Dynamics Control (VDC) system. The VTD and VDC systems operate simultaneously to help maintain traction and stability, and take corrective action before the driver even notices.
The new VTD automatic transmission uses an electronically controlled hydraulic transfer clutch that works with a planetary gear-type center differential to control power distribution between the front and rear wheels. Under most conditions the VTD system splits the power 45 percent front and 55 percent rear. The slight rear-wheel bias enhances the performance driving feel, and the VTD system can vary the power split as needed to respond to road conditions.
Like Active All-Wheel Drive, VTD adjusts the front/rear power split, always helping to ensure that the wheels with the best traction receive the most power.
Vehicle Dynamics Control (VDC) works together with
VTD All-Wheel Drive and four-wheel electronic traction control to help maintain directional stability under all driving conditions. The system monitors vehicle stability by continually measuring inputs such as steering angle, yaw rate, lateral g-force and individual wheel speed.
Using that input data, VDC can tell whether the car is going where the driver is steering it. To correct understeer (front-wheel drift), VDC applies split-second rake pressure to the inside rear wheel to help pull the car back on the desired course. To correct oversteer (rear-wheel drift), VDC applies split-second brake pressure to the outside front wheel to bring the rear of the vehicle back in line. Under certain oversteer conditions, VDC can even direct the All-Wheel Drive system to transfer more power to the front wheels. If the situation requires greater intervention, VDC can also direct the engine control module to turn off one or more fuel injectors to reduce power.
The Outback H6-3.0 VDC system adds another layer of driving control -- an all-wheel, all-speed Traction Control System (TCS). Should any wheel spin on a slippery surface, VDC will apply braking force to that wheel to help keep wheel spin under control. Depending on the traction situation, the VDC system can instruct the engine control module to reduce power by turning off one or more fuel injectors. The Outback H6-3.0 VDC can maintain traction even if three wheels are slipping on ice or snow, without the need for a limited-slip differential."
Perhaps (if the system does use a Torsen LSD) this setup is why Subaru said that their AWD system on the VDC wagon uses VTD first, before invoking the traction control. In some ways, this is actually better for on-road driving than the MB 4-matic/BMW AWD system.
However, think MB may skipped it because power transfers fore and aft when offroading can be disadvantageous for stability reasons. A permanent ratio is better to avoid any surprises (like part time 4WD - locked centre differential).
Drew
I didn't think it was a Torsen either. Torsens are fantastic, it's just that they're heavy and expensive. The less powerful Passat 4Motion is rated at 17/24 mpg on mandatory premium fuel, while I expect the VDC to beat that easily (my guess is 20/25) despite 22 more horses and only a recommendation to use premium.
-juice
Let me tell you though, if a Torsen is on the VDC wagon, that would certainly justify, well, or at least explain the premium price over the L.L. Bean wagon.
Drew
They'll likely drop them eventually, since few folks understand the benefits. Look at the TT - it uses VW's system, and hardly anyone even noticed (they're too busy drooling at the gorgeous brushed aluminum interior).
The funny thing is the traction control allows the VDC to drop the rear LSD, so mechanically at least it's actually more simple.
-juice
-Leif
a hand. LOL, Autopilot. ;>)
No, really folks, I've got to drive one of these
first chance I get.
-juice
-mike
I think I'll wait till November and purchase the H6 VDC. At this point in time I don't think Subaru will put out a poor new product, especially when entering the world of Audi and Volvo. They would have too much to lose and a lot to gain with their new product.
I'll keep viewing your comments to keep up to date.
Scarwaf
Now, I don't know MB models enough to know if this is a complete stripper or not; but the initial price difference is intriguing. I remember that MB's reviews were very good when they first came out, although the reliability was a problem, at least in the first year.
Maybe our resident MB expert could comment on whether or not the 320 Classic is a natural competitor for the VDC...
Just curious...
Randy
The ML is the bargain in the Benz line, though. Think about it - it costs LESS than the C280, it's roomier, holds more cargo, has a bigger engine and 4WD! Maybe because they build it in Alabama, I dunno.
Leather, heated seats, metallic paint, and the moonroof are extra cost options (about $3k), but still it's a good value.
IMO, it's a step-up alternative to a JGC or loaded Explorer, though. Subaru lists Volvo and VW/Audi wagons as the competition.
-juice
-Colin
Had a 1984 Thunderbird turbo coupe, and it's fun to imagine what a charged Subaru engine could do. Downside of that T-bird Turbo -- during the three years of my lease (thank God, it was a full maintenance lease) it spent a total of seven weeks in the shop.
-mike
FWIW, MB doesn't really make very much on the M-class. The figure is not even close to what Ford makes on their Expeditions/Excursions. The M-class was made so that previous MB car customers wouldn't "defect" to other companies if they wanted an SUV. It was also intended to be a stepping stone, if you will, for other more expensive MB products. MB figured that people were willing to pay a little for for the cache of the three pointed star over a JGC/Ford Explorer Limited, and they were right!
Randy, the ML320 Classic is a very good value for money, but it is somewhat of a stripper. It comes with split MB-Tex (synthetic leather)/Cloth seats, has an optional moonroof, privacy glass, etc. It does come with all of the active and passive safety equipment that the $90K ML55 has though. This means 4 side impact airbags in addition to the regular 2 front bags, dual mode ABS, ESP/4ETS, etc; MB never skimps on safety equipment. MB also includes the MCS (Multi-component system) for that is GPS ready.
I'm not sure if it is a direct competitor to the VDC wagon though. After all, as juice said, it is an SUV (but not the traditional type like the Ford Explorer) and I think that people who look at the Outbacks are considering SUV alternatives.
Juice, building the ML in Alabama is definitely cheaper because it is not subjected to the import tariff, as the other German/Austrian made MB cars are. This is part of the reason why MB cars have traditionally been expensive.
Mike, the ML doesn't drive like a minivan. Not even close; I own a minivan, so I know. It drives like a high up C-class or E-class, and handles close to one too. It does ride firmer though, due partly to its body-on-frame construction, as well as the way the suspension is tuned. MB's intention was to blend in a car/minivan/SUV all in one. The high minivanish rear is what gives it tons of cargo room, as well as the ability to seat two reasonable size adults in the 3rd row full-sized seats. Also, not many minivans can tow 5000 lbs.
MB may debut a luxury minivan based on the next generation W164 M-class (which will move to unibody construction). This van is not supposed to appear until around 2006 though, which is about two years after the next gen ML arrives.
Drew
Regarding the issue of SUV/Minivan/Station Wagon: I think there's significant competition between segments.
If you strip away the labels, you're left with a lot more similarities than differences.
Basically, Hybrid buyers (of the type we've been talking about) want:
1) AWD or similar, with active and passive safety systems;
2) Cargo space and utility;
3) Fairly decent performance and handling.
I think the Subaru, MB, RX 300, Volvo XC, and Passat AWD Wagon, all meet these criteria to varying degrees, and would therefore be competing for a similar audience.
Why would a person preemptively rule out one of these vehicles, just because it is labelled either a "station wagon" or an "SUV"? If it meets your needs, it's in the running.
Randy
Also, the Audi Allroad Quattro is more of a hybrid than the Passat is. The latter is just an AWD wagon.
ML has improved steadily, and in fact the Jeep Grand Cherokee has much worse reliability scores. Also, it may be a function of expectations - MB owners expect the absolute best, so what's fine in a Ford or Chevy is not necessarily so in a Benz.
The VDC should be able to outrun an ML320 pretty easily, though. The ML430 will probably be a closer match in terms of performance.
Guess we have to wait and see.
-juice
There is a funny page set by Chris Kennedy:
Stop the Aztek
I found some funny "math" under the Bad Design link on his page.
Note that until very recently the only Yahoo club on Aztek was "KillTheAztek", and the recently formed "PlanetAztek" club has only one message in it.
I'm glad I'm driving oh-so-good-looking Forester: just love getting compliments on its "classy" looks :-)