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For hp claims on the new GT turbo: I'm going to say less than 274 or greater than 276.
EDIT: Will VTD help deter us from drifting? If so I'm all against it.
What engines will we see? H6? Turbo? Both? And what will they name the models?
3.0GT for the H6? 3.3GT? 3.6GT?
That about the turbo? Just Legacy GT? The name 2.5GT seems no longer adequate.
Finally, we're the ones getting the nice surprises, engines better than the rest of the world. Instead of the other way around.
-juice
Don't forget that they'll probably save a surprise or two for NY.
-Dennis
6MT & 5AT Sportshift
H6 = 3.0L @ 260HP
Just bring me my sedan with 6MT, 8 Way Power Seats, Moonroof, Xenons and Nav and I'll be "go lucky, it's your birthday, spank that bootie" kinda guy!!! :-D
250bhp/245ft/lb; Mr and Mrs. Brembo-Bilstein, meet Mr. Bridgestone.
mark
I think it needs something to surpass all the others like the Maxima, Altima, Acura TL, and more. I think 270hp to match the TL will work well. Just as long as the efficiency is there and I think it will be. 20/26 is very acceptable in my book. Even drop it one on each and it's fine. The STi I rode in on a daytrip got nearly 20mpg on a lot of fast back roads and they have been able to average up to near 29mpg so the Legacy should be at or above that level as long as you don't lay into it. (I know I will.)
My guess is this will be SOA's new model intros for the coming year:
* Detroit will be devoted to the new Legacy.
Press: Jan. 4-6, 2004
Public: Jan. 10-19, 2004
Cobo Hall, Detroit, MI
* Chicago will be devoted to the new Outback.
Press: Feb. 4-5, 2004
Public: Feb. 6-15, 2004
McCormick Place South, Chicago, IL
* NY will be devoted to the new 7-passenger crossover.
Press: April 7-8, 2004
Public: April 10-18, 2004
Jacob K. Javits Center, New York, NY
By the time the NY show occurs, the new Legacy and Outback will be in showrooms; or maybe shortly thereafter? The new crossover is due to hit showrooms the following fall, so NY seems to be the logical choice for that model to debut.
Bob
Bob
Even as an avid stick driver, the latter strangely appeals to me.
Ken
Mark
But, the practical, daddy side of me knows our next trip/family vehicle will likely have to be an automatic. Manual controls at least make this easier to digest. 5 ratios keep it relatively sporty. VTD seals the deal.
So, since this will be our shared vehicle, for weekends and trips and such, we'll prolly get the 5 speed Sportshift.
However, we haven't even decided if we'll get a Legacy or the 7 seater. I have to see both before I decide. So we have to wait.
-juice
And if we go for the Outback or SUV when the lease is up on the wagon, it'll be another AT, my wife doesn't drive nor care for manual.
This debut in Detroit will be an excellent present for my birthday... I hope to go to my dealer on Jan. 29 and ask him "Where do I sign?"
Elm, just go down and get on the list now. Fido had a deposit on the STi at Flemington before it was even announced. :-)
-Dennis
Ideally, give me a Sportshift with buttons on the steering wheel, like the 3 series and IS300. I'd settle for any 2.5T, even as it in the Forester, with tons o' torque. But I want a quicker shifting tranny with closely spaced ratios.
-juice
But do I give up 80% of my driving for 20% of convenience?
Ken
by now they should know that if they risk not emulating legacy to the passats, a4 of the world, they will perish !
They already are far behind.....were they sleeping with the legacy model with minimal changes so far ?
-juice
Wonderful what a difference a popular figure Like Crocodile Dundee and a little plastic tacked on the bottoms of the doors can do for a cars perpective.
Cheers Pat.
It also got the 2.5, remember? for 3 years the only way to get that powerplant in a Legacy was to step up to an OB or a GT. The GT suffered in comparison to competitors, but the OB did also get some ground clearance.
Ironically enough I can tell you as an owner that the OB got no additional plastic or cladding until 2000. Just lil' bitty mudspats, 2-tone paint and a different front bumper skin.
not only legacy was no different but also suffered seriously from lack of attention.
now, subaru is playing a catch up game, they better make real improvements in the U.S.
TURBO ONLY STARTING AT 23,995
http://www.prnewswire.com/cgi-bin/stories.pl?ACCT=104&STORY=/- www/story/11-25-2003/0002065466&EDATE=
But yeah the legacy has been treated like an orphan child for years by Subaru, it has never pushed or promoted much as far as I am aware.
The best kept secret in the Legacy lineup at the minute is the Legacy L.SE yet it is practically unheard of.In my opinion it is also the best deal going.
Cheers Pat.
The issue is that the Legacy gained considerable weight with MY00 and the 2.5 output stayed the same.
Ken
I was expecting something more with the BE/BH models. Yes, they all got the new EJ25 Phase II engine, but it was a rather similar power figure and the different hp and torque mapping couldn't come close to compensate for the extra weight they'd be hauling around. I thought surely by the 2002 or 2003 year we'd at least see a more potent engine in the GT (as the OB got a small boost with an H6), NOPE! Even the EJ20 in the Impreza tuned a little more for low-end power....NOPE! Nothing. I really have liked the BE, but to make it something real special would take a LOT of work on the side of an enthusiast. So I have stuck to my trusty ol 97 Leg GT, better weight, same power roughly, bigger parts bin to play with.
So now we hit the 2004 model year, the Legacy line has been trimmed a hair to probably make production easier for 04 and get ready for 05.
What I think they should do:
-Make the OB line, wagon only. It's a utility vehicle after all, isn't it? Can't haul nearly as much in a sedan, I know. Besides, makes engineering easier, and nearly all other countries only offer like 3 models of the OB, ALL Wagons.
-Drop the redundant features like having an LL Bean edition with another H6 right below it, it's like GM with stacking identical models. Something like:
*Outback 2.5
*Outback 2.5 Limited (leather, etc)
*Outback 3.0
*Outback 3.0 Limited
*Outback 3.0 Limited VDC
-Make OnStart option-only if even an option. We had a discussion about this in the Subaru chat one week. I think we were unanimously against it. GPS Nav though would probably be more useful (as option in OB's and Legacy's)
-Bring back the two type of GT trim (*std*, and Limited) which gives buyers two options. I want a GT, but I don't want to have to pay for power leather seats. I don't like to slip and slide while touring or racing. Doesn't GT stand for Gran Tourismo?
http://www.japanparts.com/Pic/pic003/027-015.jpg ...in the std GT without the embroidered STi logo would be VERY nice in the std model. After all it's for sport.
-Give us something worthy of C&D's top ten (which I think they will), something between an XT and an STi for the GT models in terms of handling and power with the aptitude of a TSX in Limited type models and on par with fabrics. The base Legacys should be able to do everything an RS can, and more.
-If they want to water down the GT a little bit, please do what they did with the WRX the first 2 years, offer a handling package with better springs and struts, AND for a reasonable price, maybe $500-750 extra, installed at the factory in place of OE equipment. Some people want the extra power with a cushy ride (we've seen the cushy ride deal), I and I know others want to use this car for fast-road driving and racing. Give the enthusiasts what they want! We may be small, but we sure help sell vehicles after giving rides!
-Reasonable prices. I think the Baja Turbo, even though they are trying to push sales of these with a low price point, we probably won't see the Leg GT turbo at any more than $26.5k with leather if even witha big jump in several areas. Knock off $750-1000 for less power leather seats and I'd be a real happy camper. Add my sport suspension and I'd be really game!
Do it right, they'll have people from nearly every market segment jumping on the bandwagon. Make it affordable, well equipped (which it prettymuch is both now to an extent) and even better looking, they've got a winner. I think they are already well on their way. Execution is the biggest key.
Meanwhile, the whole industry is in a horsepower race.
Seth: my lineup would have been even simpler than yours. H6, and H6 Limited. Period. VDC and H6 standard on all Outbacks. Wagons only.
Remember, it was pitched as an alternative to the Explorer and Grand Cherokee when it came out, those have a 6 standard and both offer a V8 option, even.
Instead, they'll have 3 powertrains (add turbo to your list) and a dozen models.
-juice
Legacy Hybrid with lean-burn 2.5L with a total of 190HP
Legacy GT with a 250HP 3.0
Outback with a 250HP 3.0
Legacy GT Turbo with a 300HP turbo 2.5
Make VDC optional on the GT and Outback, standard on turbo and not available on regular ol' Legacy. Option packages will take care of leather and other goodies.
Plain ol Impreza with 160HP AVS 2.0L
Impreza Hybrid with 170HP
Outback Sport with 180HP 2.5L
WRX with 280HP 2.5L turbo
WRX STi with 340HP 2.5L turbo
Forester similar to Impreza but with 2.5L across the board and hybrid
-Outback 2.5 Wagon
-Outback 2.5 Limited Wagon
-Outback 3.0 Wagon
-Outback 3.0 Limited Wagon
Having VDC std on all 3.0's and pending cost, maybe it would be good on 2.5's too. I like just optioning out vehicles from starting with a base powertrain and chassis. The options part is easy, dealerships would just have to order the vehicles with a few different options on them. Would save costs in many areas lessening numbers of models and complexity.
Having the base 2.5L engine around the 175hp range with mileage claims of about 22/31 would be exceptional, likely most due to efficiency. Having a little better power would make the lighter BL/BP based models more fun and efficient. A win-win deal.
I do sort of like having the option for both interiors in all chassis/engine options of the higher classed Legacy and OB models. Sometimes function over form is better. The only exception would probably be a 3.0R type model where they are pushing for a little more upscale and the 6-cyl engine, AT transmission, and leather in a performance luxury combo. Most enthusiasts that are going all out will get the GT turbo models anyways.
Therefore a lineup like the following would probably do well for the Legacy:
Legacy 2.5i (~175hp 2.5L NA, 5MT/4EAT, Cloth)
Legacy 2.5i Limited (~175hp 2.5L NA, 5MT/4EAT, Leather)
Legacy 2.5GT (~275hp 2.5L Turbo, 6MT/5EAT, Cloth)
Legacy 2.5GT Limited (~275hp 2.5L Turbo, 6MT/5EAT, Leather)
Legacy 3.0R (~240hp 3.0L NA, 5EAT, Leather)
The 2.5i and 2.5GT models should be both wagon and sedan while the 3.0R could likely be sedan only, at least at start until need shows a wagon is a good thing. I can't forsee the majority of the buyers that would want the 3.0R wanting the a wagon, at least in the U.S.
Eric
I hope either the H6 or the turbo run on regular octane, too.
-juice
Juice, I definitely agree on the fuel requirements. I don't understand why they should require that on the H6. Yes they use a 10.7:1 CR, so drop it to 10.2 or maybe 10.3 with some better engine sensors and some other things that would make it capable of running the lower CR and produce it that way. I'm sure for n00b Subaru buyers looking at that on the sticker of a lot that's a turn-off. Most small SUV's don't require it, so why should then. Going from 212hp w/ premium to 235-240hp maybe with a slightly lower compression would be an alright thing while running on regular fuel. I'm not sure how mileage would vary though. I think that is one thing that has been keeping the higher compression thing going.
BTW, you can be certain we won't see regular unleaded with the turbos.
-juice
The Legacy models and their prices in South Africa are:
http://motoring.iafrica.com/newsbriefs/288617.htm
Legacy 2.5i AWD Manual - R252 000
Legacy 2.5i AWD SportShift AT 4 - R264 000
Legacy 2.5i AWD Touring Manual R 263 000
Legacy 2.5i AWD Touring SportShift AT 4 - R275 000
Legacy 2.0 GT AWD SportShift AT 5 - R315 000
Legacy 2.0 GT AWD SportShift AT 5 Premium Class - R357 000
Legacy 2.0 GT AWD Sportswagon SportShift AT 5 - R326 000
Legacy 2.0 GT AWD Sportswagon SportShift AT 5 Premium Class - R366 000
We won't see that 2.0l model here.
-juice
All 3 Subaru models are rated 5 star. But honda/toyota vehicles are only 4 stars.
But check this out:
2001 OB H4 - 17k Orig MSRP 22k
2001 OB VDC - 21k orig MSRP 31k
Someone has to be nuts to be buy VDC at 31k ? This shows how much one can lose on a high-end subaru.
Honda oddysey with 4-star reliability rating
is only 2-3k off MRSP in 2 yrs. How come ? My 2002 MPV ES (5 star reliability rating) is selling for 10k below MSRP of 28k ?
So, am i right in saying ?
if you want to sell sube in 2-3 yrs, buy only base model.
if you want to keep it forever, buy high-end model ?
Any opinions ?
Where I find the real discrepancy is the difference between resources in determining a used car's value.
Just compare Edmunds TMV and KBB. KBB will always be high. I realize they are supposed to be that way, but I think Edmunds has really little clout in terms of buying from a private party. Everybody thinks their car is the best thing since sliced bread and 'deserves' KBB value, or only slightly less. Too much emotional/financial attachment! I mean for pete's sake people--why would I pay KBB, when I can get a new one with discounts and 0% for almost the same cost.
Maybe you can get a dealer to believe TMV...
Just had to rant!
Eric
Odyssey buyers paid MSRP, sometimes even higher, and had to get on wait lists to get them 2 years ago. My cousin was one of those people. So actual depreciation is at least 2-3k plus whatever markup they might have paid.
Still, residuals are excellent because supply was short. It's among the best models in the market right now. The Sienna will change that over time, now the Ody has serious competition.
With Outbacks, base models are perceived as a better value, even in the used car market.
I once saw a demo VDC for $25,571 at fitzmall. So if I had bought that when my wife got her Legacy and sold it today, we'd only have had 4k of depreciation, close to that Odyssey.
Residuals are tricky because people usually compare them to original MSRP. But MSRP is pure fiction nowadays (except for Odysseys and Siennas), useless IMO.
-juice
So they lose 55-60% of their MSRP in the same period. But fleet cars cost a lot less to begin with, so it's hard to say. I bet Budget got those for under $20 grand new.
-juice
I had a 93 Accord EX wagon which I traded on the GT, now in this area as in the states the Accord wagon was a fairly rare beast, the 90 to 93 models were especially desirable hence owners tended to keep them until the wheels fell off, the moral here is I got $10,000CDN on trade when the black book retail was $7,800CDN and the dealer I sold it to sold it for $11,500CDN.
This was all real dollars not something on paper as I had already negotiated the GT for close to cost which is pretty hard to do here as the dealer usually gets close to sticker.
So what I am saying is, a car that is worth X number of dollars in one area can be worth more or less in another.
Cheers Pat
And for reference, a new Camry or Accord V6 would have cost me $4000-6000 more when I bought the Mazda. At resale time, values were only $2k higher, if that.
So the 626 depreciated less than either one.
-juice
Bob
The B11S hints that Subaru is interested in bringing a coupe back. It's not my cup of tea but it sure looks nice.
-juice
http://compactcars.about.com/b/a/2003_09_17.htm
So really that's nothing new.
-juice
Bob
-juice