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another possibility is that it could very well arrive in the same state of tune as the Forester XT's powerplant and receive a higher HP rating.
well, at least Subaru is no Mazda; claiming less power than it actually makes is a good thing IMO. I don't care about benchracing...
-Colin
biggest surprise would be if it is a H6 Turbo !!!!!!
This is probably the way to come back on Legacy with a bang !!!
If you look at the BMW M3, it went from an attainable $34k sport sedans, to a super-car priced monster in a few short years. They're over $50 grand now.
I'd prefer to see a 2.5T for about $30k than an H6 TT at about $40k.
-juice
The other reason is that they now how have an expensive array of options. They start at $47k for a coupe and do get near $60k with a loaded convertible. They also have a lot of built-in profit, but negotiating to invoice would be tough given the supply vs. demand.
Anyway-- not much of that would apply to Subaru. They don't have any cars that pricey, better not be planning on it, and unfortunately don't have any lines moving in any really great volume.
-c
Subaru won't find much demand at prices any higher than that, no matter how good the product is.
-juice
-Colin
ps, driving a 2003 330i today. if interested in impressions just ask me in the Cafe.
Those tend to run around $40 grand, and that's exactly why I think the Subie should stay below that price level. You don't want direct comparisons unless you can slam it in performance.
BTW, I really feel that BMW "cheats" in that the 3 series is smaller than most competitors. The G35 is 5 series sized, for instance. The TL is also a lot bigger, but both compete with the 3 based on price levels, not necessarily size.
-juice
I think NA 6-cyls, turbo 4cyls, and NA 4-cyls will be in every Subaru $35k or under. I see that H6 twin-turbo as being inherently expensive. Probably another $2k or more than the STi engine, then think of the much beefier drivetrain, and everything else, not to mention the extra weight will mean it likely won't make it to an Impreza, therefore it will sit in a larger platform. I doubt we'd see it in anything less than $35k. Thus right now the feasibility is low.
As for people dissing the 2.5L turbo in a Legacy, please people. Myself and a couple of my good contacts are frustrated with how people are knocking on a platform and powertrain that doesn't even exist in the U.S. yet. Jumping from 165 to probably 100 or more hp greater will be more than we can fathom. So sit back and don't whine about how we want an H6TT, you haven't even tried out the new Legacy 2.5GT turbo yet. I'm sure it will be very well tuned. Supposedly very smooth, decent on efficiency, but enough oomph.
That would entail starting from the bottom, again.
To built the reputation, so and so forth. Go upscale with what has already been established.
"STi".
<<I really can't see Subaru selling $40,000+ vehicles in the next 10 years, even if they are STi models>>
They could with STi as the brand. It has built and earned the reputation of performance. Prestige, well, it's limited availability has helped and keeping it limited will certainly increase its stock. Throw in quality luxos, it's ready to take on the Luxury Performance arena in the $40k range.
-Dave
STi will remain pretty much as is, that being Subaru's equivalent to BMW's "M" models, or MB's AMG models.
BTW, just got the latest R&T, and in it they stated that the B9 Scrambler could well be headed for production, perhaps by 2006!
Bob
When a friend of mine told me he's got an S4 Avant on order I had to magazine race these cars (he's a competitor of mine on the bicycle as well ;-)). This is what I wrote him...
"Of course we don't quite know what we'll be getting here in the U.S. as it hasn't been officially released yet, but here is the New Zealand site. Look up the Legacy GT Wagon specifications (5 speed manual transmission). If my conversion is correct 206 Kw = 276 hp and 1450 kg = 3198 lbs. That works out to be about 11.59 lbs./hp. Base MSRP ??? (not sure yet for U.S., but accurate estimates put it at about $28,000 to $30,000).
From www.audiusa.com I found the S4 Wagon (with 6 speed manual transmission) weighs 3936 lbs. and has 340 hp. That works out to be 11.58 lbs./hp. Base MSRP $46,650.
I know there are other differences as well and that horsepower isn't everything (torque is more fun). But just on this comparison looks like a pretty close race. ;-)"
I was surprised as I've always wanted an S4 Avant. Well, OK, not anymore. ;-)
I was guessing on the Kw to hp conversion. Does anyone know the real math on this?
-Ian
p.s. I know I posted this somewhere else here in the Suby forums, my apologies for reposting, but I'm excited about this potential performance!
http://www.onlineconversion.com/power.htm
-Dave
One rumor has the turbo only appearing in 2005, that would be a mistake IMO. The turbos are doing wonders for Subaru's image.
So...will the GT get both an H6 and a turbo as options? The Outback too? Can't wait to see the US spec models.
-juice
juice - I can hardly wait either. I think they'll pull out all the stops and surprise us as well. Looking forward to you, bob and subiegal's reports from the show.
-Ian
That's what I was suspecting too -- two birds with one stone. However, from the Alaska spy pics, we know that the new Legacy is sporting a different intercooler so the output may be different.
Ken
I'm looking for more "obscure" questions, like are the power window switches back lit; rather than the obvious questions, like how much, and when are we going to see them in showrooms? The obvious questions should be, well, "obvious."
This is for any future Subie, not just the Legacy.
So, if you have a specific question that juice or I may not think of, now's your time to ask.
Bob
-juice
Bob
-- How many and where are accessory power outlets
-- Is there a gate on the AT gearshifter after "D" (to prevent inadvertently shifting into "3")
Jon
-- Stowage for the rear cargo cover
Japanese models have this feature, so I would assume we do too. Current US-spec Impreza wagons also have the is feature; same with the Forester, as long as you remove the full-size spare.
-- How many and where are accessory power outlets
Will check.
-- Is there a gate on the AT gearshifter after "D" (to prevent inadvertently shifting into "3")
Not on the SportShift. On those models You only get P, R, N, D (+, -) gear positions. Current ('04) Legacys, without SportShift have a gated shifter. In any event, we'll check.
Bob
http://www.subaru.co.jp/r2/special_s/
http://www.subaru.co.jp/r2/special/
http://www.subaru.co.jp/r2/
or go to nabisco "News & Rumors" forum, then to R2 thread. Lots of photos, etc.
Hmmm... I see the Pleo is still in the lineup! I thought the R2 would replace it?
Bob
http://quote.bloomberg.com/apps/news?pid=10000080&sid=aDIc_k9- txxS0
The North American International Auto Show (NAIAS) is pleased to announce the press Sunday & Monday! conference schedule for NAIAS 2004. Press conferences will be held on exhibitor stands unless otherwise noted. THIS SCHEDULE IS SUBJECT TO CHANGE. Please visit www.naias.com often for the most current schedule.
Sunday, January 4, 2004
7:00 am Media Credential Office Opens / Oakland Concourse
9:15-9:40 am ASC / Michigan Hall
9:50-10:15 am Johnson Controls / D2-15
10:30 am NAIAS Co-Chairs Welcome / Michigan Hall Stage & Show
Floor Opens
10:45-11:35 am North American Car and Truck of the Year Awards /
Michigan Hall Stage
11:45 am-12:30 pm Chrysler Group / with Lunch
12:35-1:10 pm GM
1:25-1:50 pm Ford Motor Company / Cobo Arena
1:55-2:20 pm Toyota / Riverview Ballroom
2:35-3:00 pm Infiniti
3:05-3:30 pm Honda
3:35-4:00 pm Porsche
4:05-4:30 pm Audi
4:40-5:05 pm Subaru
5:25-5:50 pm Polk Loyalty Awards / D3-28
Monday, January 5, 2004
7:00-7:45 am Aston Martin, Jaguar, Land Rover, Volvo / with
Breakfast /Cobo Arena
7:55-8:20 am Mercedes-Benz
8:25-8:50 am Honda
8:55-9:20 am Mitsubishi / Chrysler Stand
9:25-9:50 am GM
9:55-10:20 am BMW
10:25-10:50 am Ferrari
10:55-11:20 am Nissan
11:25-11:50 am Volkswagen
12:00-12:25 pm Scion / Riverview Ballroom
12:30-1:20 pm Lincoln-Mercury / with Lunch / Cobo Arena
1:35-2:00 pm Chrysler Group
2:05-2:30 pm Hyundai
2:35-3:00 pm Suzuki
3:05-3:30 pm Subaru
3:35-4:00 pm Maserati
4:05-4:30 pm Mazda / Mazda Stand
5:30-7:30 pm APA / NAIAS Media Reception / Macomb Entrance
Tuesday, January 6, 2004
8:30-8:55 am Lexus / Riverview Ballroom
9:05-9:30 am Kia
9:35-10:00 am Chrysler Group
10:05-10:30 am Rolls Royce
10:40-11:05 am Michelin Challenge Design / Michigan Hall Stage
11:15-11:40 am Johnson Controls / D2-15
12:00-12:25 pm Alpine Electronics /O2-44
NAIAS 2004 Official Dates
Cobo Center in Detroit will host the NAIAS 2004 starting on Sunday, Jan. 4, with the first of three official Press Days that run through Tuesday, Jan. 6. NAIAS Industry Preview Days will be held Wednesday, Jan. 7 and Thursday, Jan. 8. The Charity Preview will be Friday evening, Jan. 9. The 2004 show will open to the public on Saturday, Jan. 10, and run through Monday, Jan. 19, 2004 (Martin Luther King, Jr. Day).
About the North American International Auto Show
In January 2003, Detroit concluded its 87th Auto Show, its 15th consecutive year as the expanded North American International Auto Show (NAIAS). Now entering its 16th year as an international event, the North American International Auto Show is considered among the most prestigious auto shows in the world and is one of the largest media events in North America. The NAIAS is the only auto show in the United States to earn the distinguished sanction of the Organisation Internationale des Constructeurs d'Automobiles (OICA), the Paris-based alliance of automotive trade associations and manufacturers from around the world. The NAIAS Web site can be accessed at www.naias.com .
PRNewswire -- Dec. 8
Bob
Rear seatbelt pretensioners?
Doorlock control all, just driver or front passenger also?
Wagon hatch LED banks configuration?
Skylights on which trims? Is roof beefed up to be as strong as non-equiped models? Can the wagons roll five or six times with no deformation?
Service schedule (oil changes, tune-ups, ect.)?
Will there be limited runs of Pacifica Blue Pearl and Sonic Yellow?
When will the diesel engines be available (5 yrs?)? This one count for obscure?
Juice, thanks for mentioning the spare size.
Detroit is arguably the biggest show of the year, and that intro/combo would make for some pretty exciting headlines, for sure. Talk about "surprises!"
Bob
So it looks like we'll be there during what's called the "Industry Preview Days". 2 meetings? I wonder...
Bob - you writing these questions down? :-)
-juice
Bob
-juice
Here you go...
To view a hi-res shot, change 'C' to 'D' in the link...
http://194.18.30.108/smo/smopics/0/03402C.JPG
http://194.18.30.108/smo/smopics/0/03403C.JPG
http://194.18.30.108/smo/smopics/0/03407C.JPG
http://194.18.30.108/smo/smopics/0/03408C.JPG
Last shots in series: dimensions:
http://194.18.30.108/smo/smopics/0/03438C.JPG
http://194.18.30.108/smo/smopics/0/03439C.JPG
There are actually more pics (to view them, change the last number before 'C' in the link) but they're more of the same...
Best looking WRX yet! I sure wished our WRX's rear license was mounted up on the hatch like that. 17" wheels too.
Note: Auto does not have SportShift!.
More shots, you know where.
Bob
The wheels too.
-Dave
Those white inserts in the seats will be stain magnets. Really, really bad idea.
Cup holder high up on the dash is gone. The 3 spoke steering wheel is an improvement, look how small the air bag compartment is. Actually, it looks like the STi's steering wheel done in black instead of silver. Shape is almost identical.
The side door planel is a little different. More fabric and less plastic. Almost looks more like the Forester's.
A couple thing improved, a couple things not as good. I was hoping for better, to be honest. Besides better front end style and the 3 spoke wheel, where is the nicer interior promised? Is it even leather?
-juice
-Dave
The center HVAC console looks like the Forester's not the current WRXes.
I wonder if the smaller hoodscoop will affect I/C performance.
Ken
Cheers Pat.
Look at the doors, I think the arm rest and inserts are from the Forester. The rear cup holder, too. And the whole dash, even down to the silver painted trim.
-juice
Gotta go get my Forester & Impreza brochures and do some comparing with the new Saabaru!
Bob
I expected more from the interior, frankly. It's a very small improvement most won't notice.
-juice
I bet SOA is going to lose a bunch of WRX sales to the new 9-2x, if the response over at nabisco is any indication. FHI will benefit, but not SOA.
One thing that SOA could do to counter this, is to offer more and better features as standard in the '05 Imprezas.
Bob
-Dave
The Forester stuff is an improvement, but not the near-luxury touch that Saab could have done.
If prices overlap, I bet Bob's right, WRX sales suffer. Not enough differentiation here.
-juice
Bob
Bob