there's not a huge number of takers because this is a wholly new market. people that want this type of vehicle have been buying some other company's product up until now.
An encouraging note, is that for the most part those who have gone to see the car in-person have been pleasantly surprised. It looks better in person than the pic reveal. The actual functionality will have to be tested. I wasn't expecting a burner but a it has to have the same go as the Pilot, Higlander, MDX, and RX330 models. I think the price per features will end up being on par. So if the driving feel is good and the crash tests are good then it will be fine.
Hmm, if they could take the B9, chop the back of to make it into a pickup and add lots of plastic cladding to the bottom in a second color and give it near worthless pass-through.....
Magnum carries a different appeal, sure, but I think even the Outback is more practical.
Rob: valid point about the utilitarian image, but it's something Subaru is trying to change. See the Pilot and Tribeca back-to-back, and the Honda is the utilitarian one.
I'll paraphrase Lucien and say the Tribeca may be "too nice" for what some of us are used to and even expect from an SUV. Basically it is more suited to a near-luxury SUV that wants a bit more value. Not a Pilot/Highlander shopper.
Having said that, a Murano SL AWD on the Nissan stand stickered for $35k, and for that price the Subie would have the 3rd row. I bet a similarly equipped MDX or RX would cost about $6-8 grand more.
They were pretty adament about the price not exceeding $40k even loaded to the gills (leather, Nav, DVD).
Based upon sales growth, Subaru seems to have been doing fine. Adding a larger and more utilitarian SUV / crossover priced $25k to $35k would have given Subaru loyalists a choice without leaving the fold, and would have helped bring annual sales to well over 200k units.
I'm just worried about Subaru disrupting what was working and trying to change the image of the brand. VW sells fine automobiles, but they met resistance when they tried to sell $40K Passats, $50+k versions of the Touareg, and $70 - $100k Phaetons. Now VW, which was doing so well a few years back is hurting, and I think Subaru is following them by jumping off the same cliff.
The the bottom of this link from Australia there is mention of the facelifted Impreza and facelifted Forester—and it states that the Forester (at least for now) won't get the new look, but that the Impreza's facelift will indicate "traces" of it. This falls right in line with what juice and I heard at dinner the night before. Our SOA rep mentioned in passing that one vehicle would get the new look, and the other wouldn't. He didn't say which would get what, however.
We talked about that at dinner. It may, or may not.
It was scheduled to debut at Chicago, but Sam the SOA rep, indicated that there could be a "problem" if that occurred. He would not elaborate on that, thus adding to the mystery.
While it'll be nice to see the B9 in person if it happens to make it to the Chicago show, I'd be quite unhappy if they just had that here and nothing 'new' to show. They've used the Chicago show in the past for debuts (F-XT, Outback, etc.), not sure why they'd not continue with that tradition.
I wonder what the issue/problem is. Maybe they have too much to debut here (ha, wishful thinking!). Although, now that I think about it, a refreshed Impreza or Forester would be pretty weak to debut here, unless an engine was the star of the show.
Anything else up SOA's sleeve that they could debut here? I doubt we'd see a concept here, that's not usually something SOA shows here.
A jury of 12 nationally-renowned automotive journalists selected the Top 10 automobiles with ballots tabulated by J.D. Power and Associates.
And the winners are: * Car of the Year: Chrysler 300C * Truck of the Year: HUMMER H2 SUT * Pick Up Truck of the Year: "Most Athletic" Ford F-250 Super Duty * Sports Car of the Year: "Most Sex Appeal" Chevrolet Corvette * Sedan of the Year: "Most Dependable" Subaru Legacy 2.5i * Luxury Car of the Year: "Most Respected" Jaguar XJ LWB * Minivan of the Year: "Most Compatible" Chrysler Town and Country * Entry Level Car of the Year: "Most Spirited" MINI Cooper Convertible * Crossover/Sport Wagon: "Most Versatile" Dodge Magnum * SUV of the Year: "Most Resourceful" Land Rover LR3
I imagine you're talking about me. I wouldn't call myself a Toyota loyalist since I own a Subaru!!!
This is very nice, however:
a) This is based on a jury's vote, and it goes against their very own statistics.
b) How do they know if it will be dependable when it's only been out for a few months? Perhaps they mean "you can depend on it in all types of weather and on all types of roads"? I would certainly agree with that.
c) Look at the whole list of awards, not very many I would agree with, except for the Mini.
BTW, it isn't just my opinion. Toyota/Lexus is widely regarded by the inudstry and the press as the most reliable brand. That is also confirmed by most customer surveys. I've rarely met anyone who would dispute that before! Here in Canada, Subaru is showing average reliability, and below average service. Again, not my opinion, but that of the trade press and the CAA.
However, Toyota is certainly not perfect, and they have had a few miscues here and there. But they nonetheless remain a company that offers excellent value, reliability, and service.
"The key to the success of our mid-term sales goal now depends on our all-new B9 Tribeca, which falls into the class of middle-to-premium SUVs (sport utility vehicles), as we plan to take advantage of continued expansion of this segment," Takenaka said.
"To stablize our group profit and increase our resistance to fluctuations of the yen, we are now examining the possibility of exporting this model from the US to such countries as Europe, Australia and Japan," Takenaka said, without elaborating.
WOW, WHAT AN IDEA !
Fuji Heavy is aiming to sell 15,000-18,000 Subaru B9 Tribecas in 2005. All will be made at the company's US plant. THAT'S IT ? THIS SHOULD BE EASY.
First year sales will be below Subaru estimates. I say around 10K sold.
Anybody know when we should expect EPA economy estimates? Anything else similar in the class that weighs in around 4200 pounds with 219 lbs-ft of torque? Just curious how it will feel off the line, hopefully Subaru followed the FXT 5MT gearing idea.
MDX may be 300 pounds heavier, but it has 15 more HP and more importantly, 33 more lbs-ft of torque at 700 lower RPM.
does that seem extremely low to anyone else? my god the baja sells 7k units. sounds like someone is setting up the 'the tribeca is way above sells goals and proves to be subarus successful entry into the premium market space' line.
MDX gives 14mpg in the city. Would you want one ? Plus i have driven the previous gen MDX (which has 15hp less), it doesn't feel sporty & fast at all.
Interesting comparison: I have an MPV which is very comfortable for 7 (assuming 1 or 2 kids), enough leg room for all. Only problem is tight suspension. But it is easy to maneuver & park, it does feel sporty:
MPV length: 189.5
TRibeca: 189.8
MPV Width: 72.1
TRibeca: 73.9
MPV Weight: 3800 lbs
Tribeca: 4200 lbs
MPV HP & Torque: 200 & 200(3000 rpm)
Tribeca: 250hp & 219(4000_
MPV: does 0-60 in 9 sec.
TRibeca should be the same which is very acceptabl for family vehicles.
I don't want to keep harping on this comparison, but since you brought it up...
where in the world did you get 14 mpg for the MDX mileage? EPA rating is 17. Granted, our Pilot has a little less power, but the EPA city number is the same in both vehicles, but I can only dip down to 18.5 mpg if I really put my foot in it. My wife consistently does far better.
Interesting that you call the MDX non-sporty and fast and the MPV sporty when the MDX can get to 60 mph about a full second quicker. BUT, yes, you did say "feel" sporty, which is quite different than real-world numbers.
'11 GMC Sierra 1500; '98 Alfa 156 2.0TS; '08 Maser QP; '67 Coronet R/T; '13 Fiat 500c; '20 S90 T6; '22 MB Sprinter 2500 4x4 diesel; '97 Suzuki R Wagon; '96 Opel Astra; '11 Mini Cooper S
I can second the observation that the MPV drives very well and is considerably more sporty than the MDX. I was surprised and disappointed to find that the MDX drives like a large minivan. The MPV is a small minivan and drives like a sport wagon if you ask me.
I think 0-60 numbers are not a good indication of "sporty". There are quite a few pickup trucks that can get to 60mph in a respectable amount of time, but they are very far from being sporty!
Some industry analysts agree with Ishigami's view that the B9 Tribeca, which also will be sold in Chile, has potential to become Subaru's flagship vehicle.
"The brand is moving 'up market' with their future products," said Joe Barker, manager of sales analysis with CSM Worldwide, an auto industry research and consulting firm in Grand Rapids, Mich. "The B9 Tribeca is really the first vehicle that we'll see that will give us a hint of some of the upscale models that will be coming to Subaru dealers. It's an important product for Subaru for a number of reasons.
i totally agree with you that acceleration isn't everything. But since the poster mentioned the horsepower, I stayed on that particular track and brought up the accleration times.
And as far as "it felt like a large minivan" ..... that's because it is.
'11 GMC Sierra 1500; '98 Alfa 156 2.0TS; '08 Maser QP; '67 Coronet R/T; '13 Fiat 500c; '20 S90 T6; '22 MB Sprinter 2500 4x4 diesel; '97 Suzuki R Wagon; '96 Opel Astra; '11 Mini Cooper S
Usually the Impreza shows up first, then the Forester that is based on that chassis. Maybe this time they'll let the Forester debut with the new chassis?
But it's not really due until MY2008. This should just be a refreshening.
15-18k should be easy as pie. I think they mean by the end of this calendar year. If it comes out in May and production ramps up but late June, we're talking about half of a full year or a tad more.
I've been saying 40k sales so they're looking for maybe even a little less. I say their estimate is low, and they'll have to increase production.
juice and I was part of a group who had dinner with our SOA host. We talked briefly about Chicago, and our SOA host said the facelifted Forester was originally scheduled for for Chicago, but that there may be a "problem" with that. He did not elaborate on that, even though we tried to get him to do so.
So my guess is that problem has been resolved, or that it is something we didn't expect. I really doubt it will be the Impreza, as I too think that will debut either at Geneva or New York.
So what is that "Problem?"
It could be that the new Forester has some new technology that they would rather "introduce" on the more up-market Legacy/Outback models later at NY?
What could that be?
• 5EATs to replace 4EATs across the board?
• 6-speed manual?
• Upgraded N/A 2.5, again across the board?
• NAV?
Maybe SOA will show a Forester model that will have just a few (not all) of those features, therefore allowing for additional surprises to be unveiled at NY on either the Legacy/Outback and/or the Impreza?
another thing he mentioned was that one, but not both (Forester & Impreza) will have the new face. My guess is the Impreza will get it now, and the Forester will get it when it is completely redesigned in a few years.
• Noticed that the gearshift is not of the "gated" design. I wonder if Subaru is "shifting" (pun intended) away from that design, back to the more conventional non-gated versions? I wonder if we'll see this on future Legacy and Outbacks?
• Noticed that the inside door pull is not of the Legacy/Outback style—thank God! Hopefully future Legacys and Outbacks will revert back to a door pull something like what's found on the Tribeca.
Perhaps Subaru used a non-gated shift pattern on the B9X for asthetic reasons. The B9X center console has a fairly strong and symmetric design that is probably better complimented by a straight pattern than the current gated one in the Leg/OB.
I personally like the gated pattern from a functional standpoint. I don't need to look down to know if I'm going into neutral, reverse or park.
Fuji Heavy Industries Ltd., maker of Subaru vehicles, plans to build two more large dealerships in the United States. The company also plans to freshen the Forester this summer with a more powerful engine and changes to the interior and exterior.
View story [SUB]
Anybody subscribe to Automotive News? You need to be a subscriber to access this article.
Okay, should we assume a more powerful base engine, or an STi model? I say base engine.
are there any large dealerships already, especially ones that are owned by SOA? (many states forbid car manufacturers from owning dealerships.)
more powerful base engine would be my guess. the naturally aspirate 2.5 fares pretty poorly against the competition, while the 2.5 turbo is the top of the class by a fair margin.
I hope more power doesn't mean 168hp. That would be a let down.
Bring AVCS to the Forester. RAV4 and CR-V both have variable valve timing, and it no longer enjoys the power/torque advantage it once had over those two.
Guaranteed trade-in values were a let down. We got a mailer for our 2002 Legacy L and they low balled us - $10,800.
No way, no how, on the used car market it would fetch a lot more than that. I think I could get $12-13k selling it myself.
Comments
~c
Wow, I gotta call SOA on this one!
Rob: valid point about the utilitarian image, but it's something Subaru is trying to change. See the Pilot and Tribeca back-to-back, and the Honda is the utilitarian one.
I'll paraphrase Lucien and say the Tribeca may be "too nice" for what some of us are used to and even expect from an SUV. Basically it is more suited to a near-luxury SUV that wants a bit more value. Not a Pilot/Highlander shopper.
Having said that, a Murano SL AWD on the Nissan stand stickered for $35k, and for that price the Subie would have the 3rd row. I bet a similarly equipped MDX or RX would cost about $6-8 grand more.
They were pretty adament about the price not exceeding $40k even loaded to the gills (leather, Nav, DVD).
-juice
I'm just worried about Subaru disrupting what was working and trying to change the image of the brand. VW sells fine automobiles, but they met resistance when they tried to sell $40K Passats, $50+k versions of the Touareg, and $70 - $100k Phaetons. Now VW, which was doing so well a few years back is hurting, and I think Subaru is following them by jumping off the same cliff.
Also, talk about VW's reliability. Also, VWs never had any special offers.
Maybe if it was more minivan than anything else? Even then I dunno.
VW went a lot, lot farther than Subaru. The Touareg's base price is $37,120, probably $5 grand lower for Subaru. And the Phaeton is way up there.
But yeah, VW left the volume models ignored for far too long.
-juice
http://carsguide.news.com.au/news/story_page/0,8269,11937760%5E21- - - 822,00.html
Bob
Although, judging by that article, the Forester gets the facelift first. So, maybe the facelifted Forester debuts at the Chicago show?
*shrug*
-Brian
It was scheduled to debut at Chicago, but Sam the SOA rep, indicated that there could be a "problem" if that occurred. He would not elaborate on that, thus adding to the mystery.
Bob
Bob
I wonder what the issue/problem is. Maybe they have too much to debut here (ha, wishful thinking!). Although, now that I think about it, a refreshed Impreza or Forester would be pretty weak to debut here, unless an engine was the star of the show.
Anything else up SOA's sleeve that they could debut here? I doubt we'd see a concept here, that's not usually something SOA shows here.
-Brian
JD.Power voted this:
Sedan of the Year: "Most Dependable" Subaru Legacy 2.5i
http://www.wcax.com/Global/story.asp?S=2784079
A jury of 12 nationally-renowned automotive journalists selected the Top 10 automobiles with ballots tabulated by J.D. Power and Associates.
And the winners are: * Car of the Year: Chrysler 300C * Truck of the Year: HUMMER H2 SUT * Pick Up Truck of the Year: "Most Athletic" Ford F-250 Super Duty * Sports Car of the Year: "Most Sex Appeal" Chevrolet Corvette * Sedan of the Year: "Most Dependable" Subaru Legacy 2.5i * Luxury Car of the Year: "Most Respected" Jaguar XJ LWB * Minivan of the Year: "Most Compatible" Chrysler Town and Country * Entry Level Car of the Year: "Most Spirited" MINI Cooper Convertible * Crossover/Sport Wagon: "Most Versatile" Dodge Magnum * SUV of the Year: "Most Resourceful" Land Rover LR3
This is very nice, however:
a) This is based on a jury's vote, and it goes against their very own statistics.
b) How do they know if it will be dependable when it's only been out for a few months? Perhaps they mean "you can depend on it in all types of weather and on all types of roads"? I would certainly agree with that.
c) Look at the whole list of awards, not very many I would agree with, except for the Mini.
BTW, it isn't just my opinion. Toyota/Lexus is widely regarded by the inudstry and the press as the most reliable brand. That is also confirmed by most customer surveys. I've rarely met anyone who would dispute that before! Here in Canada, Subaru is showing average reliability, and below average service. Again, not my opinion, but that of the trade press and the CAA.
However, Toyota is certainly not perfect, and they have had a few miscues here and there. But they nonetheless remain a company that offers excellent value, reliability, and service.
Sly
"The key to the success of our mid-term sales goal now depends on our all-new B9 Tribeca, which falls into the class of middle-to-premium SUVs (sport utility vehicles), as we plan to take advantage of continued expansion of this segment," Takenaka said.
"To stablize our group profit and increase our resistance to fluctuations of the yen, we are now examining the possibility of exporting this model from the US to such countries as Europe, Australia and Japan," Takenaka said, without elaborating.
WOW, WHAT AN IDEA !
Fuji Heavy is aiming to sell 15,000-18,000 Subaru B9 Tribecas in 2005. All will be made at the company's US plant. THAT'S IT ? THIS SHOULD BE EASY.
Anybody know when we should expect EPA economy estimates? Anything else similar in the class that weighs in around 4200 pounds with 219 lbs-ft of torque? Just curious how it will feel off the line, hopefully Subaru followed the FXT 5MT gearing idea.
MDX may be 300 pounds heavier, but it has 15 more HP and more importantly, 33 more lbs-ft of torque at 700 lower RPM.
-B
-mike
Interesting comparison: I have an MPV which is very comfortable for 7 (assuming 1 or 2 kids), enough leg room for all. Only problem is tight suspension. But it is easy to maneuver & park, it does feel sporty:
MPV length: 189.5
TRibeca: 189.8
MPV Width: 72.1
TRibeca: 73.9
MPV Weight: 3800 lbs
Tribeca: 4200 lbs
MPV HP & Torque: 200 & 200(3000 rpm)
Tribeca: 250hp & 219(4000_
MPV: does 0-60 in 9 sec.
TRibeca should be the same which is very acceptabl for family vehicles.
where in the world did you get 14 mpg for the MDX mileage? EPA rating is 17. Granted, our Pilot has a little less power, but the EPA city number is the same in both vehicles, but I can only dip down to 18.5 mpg if I really put my foot in it. My wife consistently does far better.
Interesting that you call the MDX non-sporty and fast and the MPV sporty when the MDX can get to 60 mph about a full second quicker. BUT, yes, you did say "feel" sporty, which is quite different than real-world numbers.
'11 GMC Sierra 1500; '98 Alfa 156 2.0TS; '08 Maser QP; '67 Coronet R/T; '13 Fiat 500c; '20 S90 T6; '22 MB Sprinter 2500 4x4 diesel; '97 Suzuki R Wagon; '96 Opel Astra; '11 Mini Cooper S
FXT(infinity ?) is a family vehicle ? it is a joke to me !
'11 GMC Sierra 1500; '98 Alfa 156 2.0TS; '08 Maser QP; '67 Coronet R/T; '13 Fiat 500c; '20 S90 T6; '22 MB Sprinter 2500 4x4 diesel; '97 Suzuki R Wagon; '96 Opel Astra; '11 Mini Cooper S
I think 0-60 numbers are not a good indication of "sporty". There are quite a few pickup trucks that can get to 60mph in a respectable amount of time, but they are very far from being sporty!
Craig
Let me know
Some industry analysts agree with Ishigami's view that the B9 Tribeca, which also will be sold in Chile, has potential to become Subaru's flagship vehicle.
"The brand is moving 'up market' with their future products," said Joe Barker, manager of sales analysis with CSM Worldwide, an auto industry research and consulting firm in Grand Rapids, Mich. "The B9 Tribeca is really the first vehicle that we'll see that will give us a hint of some of the upscale models that will be coming to Subaru dealers. It's an important product for Subaru for a number of reasons.
And as far as "it felt like a large minivan" ..... that's because it is.
'11 GMC Sierra 1500; '98 Alfa 156 2.0TS; '08 Maser QP; '67 Coronet R/T; '13 Fiat 500c; '20 S90 T6; '22 MB Sprinter 2500 4x4 diesel; '97 Suzuki R Wagon; '96 Opel Astra; '11 Mini Cooper S
But it's not really due until MY2008. This should just be a refreshening.
15-18k should be easy as pie. I think they mean by the end of this calendar year. If it comes out in May and production ramps up but late June, we're talking about half of a full year or a tad more.
I've been saying 40k sales so they're looking for maybe even a little less. I say their estimate is low, and they'll have to increase production.
Beanboy: 10k, you wanna bet?
-juice
Subaru has a press announcement on Wednesday Feb. 9 @ 1:45. Is it the facelifted '06 Forester?
Bob
-Dennis
So my guess is that problem has been resolved, or that it is something we didn't expect. I really doubt it will be the Impreza, as I too think that will debut either at Geneva or New York.
So what is that "Problem?"
It could be that the new Forester has some new technology that they would rather "introduce" on the more up-market Legacy/Outback models later at NY?
What could that be?
• 5EATs to replace 4EATs across the board?
• 6-speed manual?
• Upgraded N/A 2.5, again across the board?
• NAV?
Maybe SOA will show a Forester model that will have just a few (not all) of those features, therefore allowing for additional surprises to be unveiled at NY on either the Legacy/Outback and/or the Impreza?
Bob
~c
Bob
DaveM
-juice
• Noticed that the inside door pull is not of the Legacy/Outback style—thank God! Hopefully future Legacys and Outbacks will revert back to a door pull something like what's found on the Tribeca.
Bob
I personally like the gated pattern from a functional standpoint. I don't need to look down to know if I'm going into neutral, reverse or park.
Ken
Ken
Fuji Heavy Industries Ltd., maker of Subaru vehicles, plans to build two more large dealerships in the United States. The company also plans to freshen the Forester this summer with a more powerful engine and changes to the interior and exterior.
View story [SUB]
Anybody subscribe to Automotive News? You need to be a subscriber to access this article.
Okay, should we assume a more powerful base engine, or an STi model? I say base engine.
Bob
are there any large dealerships already, especially ones that are owned by SOA? (many states forbid car manufacturers from owning dealerships.)
more powerful base engine would be my guess. the naturally aspirate 2.5 fares pretty poorly against the competition, while the 2.5 turbo is the top of the class by a fair margin.
~Colin
Bob
Bring AVCS to the Forester. RAV4 and CR-V both have variable valve timing, and it no longer enjoys the power/torque advantage it once had over those two.
Guaranteed trade-in values were a let down. We got a mailer for our 2002 Legacy L and they low balled us - $10,800.
No way, no how, on the used car market it would fetch a lot more than that. I think I could get $12-13k selling it myself.
-juice