True but in terms of price, there is very little difference between the Legacy GT and the current Impreza WRX, with the WRX missing a lot of features that are available in the Legacy, including 5EAT, Manual shift capability in the EAT, power seats etc.
There is no rhyme or reason to exclude the Turbo/5EAT from the WRX, considering the huge premium they are charging over the non-turbo Imprezas. Basically, I believe one of the primary reasons why the WRX EAT does not sell, is because people consider it a ripoff due to the deliberate exclusion of key features that are available on other Subaru models (GT etc) that are comparably priced...I know that is my only reason for not considering the EAT WRX.
Deliberately exclude key features from the EAT WRX (available on similarly priced models in the Subaru lineup), force people to pay additional money for the "limited" features (since EAT is not available as a non-limited) whether they want to or not, dumb down the performance capability in a car that is Subaru's primary claim to fame among the un-initiated and you have a clear recipe for sales failure when it comes to the EAT WRX. The buying public are not dumb.
I am saying : get rid of that product planner who made that decision, since he is helping to sink the company.
Someone who just their MT in mail over at nabisco posted:
• Torque is now at 2800rpm instead of 3600rpm • 10% better fuel economy • 15.0:1 steering ratio from the STI instead of 16.5:1 • 3.7" longer wheelbase • unequal-length control arm replaces multilink in the back • hatch everywhere in the world, but NA gets a sedan as well • WRX is the only one that gets clear rear lenses, the Impreza and sedan variants have red (time for a swap) • framed windows • 2" wider interior space • optional nav with 7" screen (with connection in the center armrest for AV hookups, including video that only works when the parking brake is engaged) • WRX gauges sweep to max and back again like the STI, and are red • 17" wheels, 10 spoke (no mention of rubber) on the WRX, 16" on base model • Single exhaust on the hatch, dual on the sedan
The WRX sedan is slightly longer than the car it replaces, and the hatchback is half foot shorter than the new sedan.
Wheelbase: 103.1" L x W x H: 173.8-180.3" x 68.5" x 58.1"
Also: Engine 2.5L 224hp/226lbft turbo DOCH 16-valve flat-4 3150-3200lbs (mfr) 0-60 in 5.5 sec (MT estimated)
All of the above is GOOD. I especially loved the steering ratio...fabulous. Going by the above, I might even consider the car.
I just wished they had gone the whole hog and provided a 5EAT with the 3 different power delivery modes (like on the GT) and paddle shifters. 5EAT is a big talking point....4EAT is a point that will talk it down.
Who knows, hopefully the 4EAT is in the non-WRX variants and the WRX might come with a 5EAT. That will make the WRX an absolutely tempting buy, for me.
Another point is that the pre-2008 Impreza Wagon/hatch version was a red-headed-stepchild in terms of the features it got (narrower front track, Steel vs Aluminium suspension bits etc), when compared to the Sedan, since the Sedan and not the Wagon was the basis for the Subaru Rally efforts.
The tables are turned now, since now the hatch/wagon is the Rally car. Which means that going forward, the hatch will not be denied any of the bits that the Sedan will be given, unlike in the past. I am only interested in the wagon/hatch.
From the pics, the interior looks MUCH better, I like how it looks inspired by the Tribeca's.
Looks like quicker steering, less turbo lag, more efficiency, more space, more comfort. 7" NAV screen is SWEET.
4EAT is disappointing, but an even bigger disappointment if that's all the Forester will get.
On the WRX who cares, everyone gets a manual. I think it's bad news because it means the Impreza and Outback Sport also get 4 ratios, and many of those are auto.
mike - I agree. The new Impreza got a lot of cues from the Tribeca, especially inside but also the shoulder line, hatch, rear glass, etc.
I bet the 08 Tribeca gets cleaner lines but the same basic look - which I think will look great.
I never disliked the grille (I think my first reaction was "much ado about nothing") but a more generic grille will at least take the attention off that area and people can appreciate the overall shape, which I've always liked.
Looking forward to seeing it.
I'm not crazy about the Impreza grille - it looks too much like the one Chrysler is using. Hope there is a non-chrome option for the 'beca.
No. Everyone "gets a manual" because the EAT in the WRX is not a legitimate performance variant and is being added to a car billed as a high-performance product. Put in a valid 5EAT (or 6EAT) with performance ratios and paddle shifters and the market will sing, since this is the good old USA where EATs are king. I am assuming that a true Auto-manual like the BMW SMG is too expensive to be paired with a product like the WRX.
Put in a 4EAT with no paddle shifters and ratios fit for a grandmother (as we have now) and to add insult to injury, charge nearly $30K for it, and the market will shun the product - no rocket science there. In fact, it is a blatant insult to people's intelligence. Once again, get rid of the product manager who made this decision, since the company would be much better off without him/her.
If you have a WRX, and bought it for "performance" you should get a stick. The 5EAT no matter how good is not going to replace a true manual for all out performance. Just like if I end up with the "uber cool rev-matching 5EAT" in the 3.0R Legacy, I know upfront it's not going to be as good as a 5MT or 6MT.
Yup, I built the 4EAT race car cause that's all I had at the time, bought the car as an HPDEr and it evolved. That's why when I built the current one I built it with a 5MT. Also when I started HPDEing didn't really drive stick at all, except briefly with my Red XT6 which had a 6 puck metallic clutch!
I'm big enought to know when I'm wrong, also the L was NA and had a broader torque band more suited for the AT than the rather narrow band of power that a Turbo has.
I agree the WRX is best suited to a manual transmission, but the optional 4EAT is a joke and I also agree that there is low demand for auto WRX models because of that. The rage nowadays (whether we agree or would buy one) is the paddle-shifted auto trans. It seems cool, and it allows manual-averse people to have some fun (and they may be disillusioned about it but who cares -- they like it). I am sure Subaru could boost sales and justify the AT model if they made an attempt to make it more sporting.
When I had my OB XT with the 5EAT, that was the first (and only) auto-trans car I owned that did not feel like a penalty to me. Between the sport mode and the shifter buttons on the wheel, it was damn good and made the most of the turbo motor. That same level of tech (or better) belongs in the WRX. Personally, I think they would make quite a hit with the younger crowd if they tried to emulate the direct-shift gearbox in the rally cars, complete with the digital gear readout on the dash. Even if it was an auto trans lurking underneath and faking the whole thing, the young tuner crowd would eat it up. Most of those dopes can't drive manual trans anyhow.
Agreed craig. I also have been saying it for years, but they need an AWD gauge/readout similar to what I had in my Trooper which had TOD. This would show bars with a rough readout of the % of power going to each axle. This would be a great item to get folks more interested in the AWD aspect of it.
Oh, definitely a good idea -- that would be really cool and appeal to the younger crowd (and I would like it too, actually). I bet most of the "hooks" are already there, they just need a way to display the info.
My RDX is a base model, but the "tech" model has a display like that which shows the variation front/back and side/side as the SH-AWD does its thing.
I know it is a tangent, but why did you move away from your Outback? I have been thinking about a OB XT 5EAT and wonder what you liked and didn't like...
Absolutely agree with everything stated. Billing a product with the "WRX" brandname and then in the EAT version, pairing a 4EAT with ratios a grandmother would love, and no manual shift ability, is not a recipe to gain market-share.
Well, actually, it was a great car. I miss the engine and transmission -- that was an awesome powertrain. I mainly wanted to get better handling, more passenger room and comfort, better gas mileage if possible, and stability control. The Legacy GT wagon was a strong choice (in fact I narrowly chose the OB XT over the GT back in 2004) but that only gave me the better handling. Sadly, Subaru never offered stability control in the GT wagon, and of course it is being canceled all together for 2008.
I still think highly of the OB XT and would not hesitate to recommend it heartily. The 07 model's SI drive gets a couple more MPG than my 05, and offers VDC now. If you are OK with the smallish interior and handling, it's one of the best wagons around. I do prefer the 05-07 front end better than the cheesy face coming in 2008.
The image is a bit misleading in that it appears to have an all chrome grille, which is not the case. The top ribbon and mesh are really a matte black. Only the logo and the bottom/left/right grille surround are chrome.
By moving to a 205/50-17 tire size on the WRX, they actually **reduced** the width of the tires, from the existing 215/45-17 size. That sounds really surprising !
I was surprised to see that the Forester and Outback have virtually the same leg room measurements for the rear seat. I have a Forester now and 4 adults is a tight fit. The Outback, despite another 12" in overall length and 6" increase in wheelbase, appears to be no better.
Besides that, it seems like a great candidate for the 'one car to rule them all'...
No, it is certainly not going to win any awards for cabin space. But, I think it does fit 4 comfortably, at least for moderate distances (2-4 hours). Compared to my '96, dedicated cargo space is increased, but rear passenger leg room is far less.
2018 Subaru Crosstrek, 2014 Audi Q7 TDI, 2013 Subaru Forester, 2013 Ford F250 Lariat D, 1976 Ford F250, 1969 Chevrolet C20, 1969 Ford Econoline 100
It's painful. It's like being eaten alive. Every stinking news from them is a little slug on the face. First take away manual tranny from Legacy wagon. Then take wagon completely. Then show 3.0R but is there manual? Then show us Subaru Sebring WRX with same old same old.
Where the heck is that rebirth of the legend???? :sick:
There is a chance it's going to look better in person, as many of them did before, but if "it counts what's inside", as they used to put it... Same engine, same transmission. Reborn? hardly.
There will be some good point, no doubt - but they start looking awfully like domestics - always behind, always too little, always enough to make beancounters happy.
I disagree, the inside is by far the biggest improvement.
The current interior design looks like it's from the 90s (it mostly is), and the new one is nicely updated.
I'm not sure I like the fact that they went with a smallish 5 door hatch rather than a wagon, but I'd be looking at a Forester any how. With a wheelbase at least as long, and a boxy rear section, that could be sweet.
The 4EAT will present a much bigger problem for the Forester, though. All its competitors have 5 ratios nowadays, and have had stability control for a couple of years now. If they do not update the tranny and add VDC to the Forester, sales will fade slowly. I hope they don't make those 2 mistakes.
I hope the Forester gets similar improvements. 2" wider, 3.7" longer wheelbase, and about 5" longer (like the WRX sedan) would mean it would still be among the smaller entires in the compact SUV class, yet combined with the more compact rear suspension yield a much more accomodating interior.
If all that happens I may try to convince the wife to take the big car and I'll get one of those down the road some time.
From my inside sources, the 5EAT in the 3.0R is really a nifty trans with the rev matching. I think I'm gonna definitely wait til it hits the street so I can compare the 3.0R v. the LGT 5MT head to head.
After looking at these images of the new WRX over the past few days, I just can't shake this feeling of disappointment. The exterior styling (particularly the front) looks exactly like a Kia Spectra5 to me, and that's not a good thing. Maybe when I see one in person I'll come around, but this is NOT a photogenic car.
Having owned an 04 WRX wagon for 2 years (from 03-05) I grew quite fond of the little wagon's utility, but the decision to turn the wagon (albeit a small wagon) into a 5 door hatch is a step backwards in my opinion. At least the rear seat room is reported to be larger, but I fear seat-down cargo room has suffered in the transformation...and that was one of my favorite features of my WRX.
I am pleased to see an updated interior, as that was one area of my 04 that was a little lacking -- it felt comparatively cheap sitting in the driveway next to our 04 Accord. The 08 looks to be more upscale.
To my eyes, though, the WRX has never been better than the 02/03 "google eyes". That design still gets me and I feel it is still a knockout everytime I see one one the road.
I think the hatch would look better with flared fenders, perhaps something the STI will get.
Hatches are smaller than wagons, but they are in vogue in the pocket rocket class, and there's always the Forester if you want to be practical.
I can't blame them for that, it will segregate the models more, and too much overlap was probably the biggest criticism in the past.
Perhaps I'm not bothered because I would get a Forester any way.
I don't think cargo room will suffer. That rear suspension is much more compact, so the cargo well will likely be a lot deeper, and not have the rather large strut towers eating up half the cargo space like they do now. It may not be as long, but it should be wider and deeper.
I bet the rear seat is moved way back, too. Maybe they'll put a stackable shelf and create a tallish cargo area.
I liked the bug eyes, too, but it was more controversial that even this new design.
Perhaps Subaru should have launched the STI first, then people wouldn't be as critical.
To each his own... I bought a '99 2.5 RS in early 1999 and was tipped by the regional rep that a WRX was coming for MY2002.. and was gung-ho for a year and a half until the spy pics broke.
Kept the '99 for a few years after WRX release and then bought a used M3. So.. no, I'm not a big fan of the bugeye. Europe and Asia weren't either, the sales dropped compared to the previous generation (they had a WRX for a long time, obviously).
Not to nit-pick, but the RAV4 is doing VERY well (doubled sales, won Car and Driver 5 Best, CR Top Pick in category), and it sells at about 65%, I believe, 4 cylinder, 4-speed auto. Now, it's not super fast at 9.5 to 60, but it's far from a dog, too.
While I agree that the 4EAT is a disappointment if it indeed is the automatic du rigeur (is that the expression I'm looking for?), I don't think it automatically spells disaster. VDC, OTOH, I think is a much bigger issue, especially since SoA paints billboards, websites, magazine ads.... with messages about safety.
Good catch, didn't realize the RAV4 4 cylinder had a 4EAT. I guess because I've always looked at the V6s, which get 5 ratios. But the turbo models will still be a ratio short.
Plus, the CR-V got a 5 speed with the last generation model, and that outsells both.
I think Mitsu even put in a 6 speed, though they're still only a small player.
Let's just hope they do make VDC standard on the Forester, given the extra year of delay before the intro, and especially given its competitors are much more likely to have VSC than any other segment.
Comments
There is no rhyme or reason to exclude the Turbo/5EAT from the WRX, considering the huge premium they are charging over the non-turbo Imprezas. Basically, I believe one of the primary reasons why the WRX EAT does not sell, is because people consider it a ripoff due to the deliberate exclusion of key features that are available on other Subaru models (GT etc) that are comparably priced...I know that is my only reason for not considering the EAT WRX.
Deliberately exclude key features from the EAT WRX (available on similarly priced models in the Subaru lineup), force people to pay additional money for the "limited" features (since EAT is not available as a non-limited) whether they want to or not, dumb down the performance capability in a car that is Subaru's primary claim to fame among the un-initiated and you have a clear recipe for sales failure when it comes to the EAT WRX. The buying public are not dumb.
I am saying : get rid of that product planner who made that decision, since he is helping to sink the company.
• Torque is now at 2800rpm instead of 3600rpm
• 10% better fuel economy
• 15.0:1 steering ratio from the STI instead of 16.5:1
• 3.7" longer wheelbase
• unequal-length control arm replaces multilink in the back
• hatch everywhere in the world, but NA gets a sedan as well
• WRX is the only one that gets clear rear lenses, the Impreza and sedan variants have red (time for a swap)
• framed windows
• 2" wider interior space
• optional nav with 7" screen (with connection in the center armrest for AV hookups, including video that only works when the parking brake is engaged)
• WRX gauges sweep to max and back again like the STI, and are red
• 17" wheels, 10 spoke (no mention of rubber) on the WRX, 16" on base model
• Single exhaust on the hatch, dual on the sedan
The WRX sedan is slightly longer than the car it replaces, and the hatchback is half foot shorter than the new sedan.
Wheelbase: 103.1"
L x W x H: 173.8-180.3" x 68.5" x 58.1"
Also: Engine 2.5L 224hp/226lbft turbo DOCH 16-valve flat-4
3150-3200lbs (mfr)
0-60 in 5.5 sec (MT estimated)
Mostly all good news from what I see.
Bob
I just wished they had gone the whole hog and provided a 5EAT with the 3 different power delivery modes (like on the GT) and paddle shifters. 5EAT is a big talking point....4EAT is a point that will talk it down.
Who knows, hopefully the 4EAT is in the non-WRX variants and the WRX might come with a 5EAT. That will make the WRX an absolutely tempting buy, for me.
And is the backseat any bigger?
Bob
The tables are turned now, since now the hatch/wagon is the Rally car. Which means that going forward, the hatch will not be denied any of the bits that the Sedan will be given, unlike in the past. I am only interested in the wagon/hatch.
Bob
Bob
From the pics, the interior looks MUCH better, I like how it looks inspired by the Tribeca's.
Looks like quicker steering, less turbo lag, more efficiency, more space, more comfort. 7" NAV screen is SWEET.
4EAT is disappointing, but an even bigger disappointment if that's all the Forester will get.
On the WRX who cares, everyone gets a manual. I think it's bad news because it means the Impreza and Outback Sport also get 4 ratios, and many of those are auto.
2018 430i Gran Coupe
-mike
-mike
-mike
mike - I agree. The new Impreza got a lot of cues from the Tribeca, especially inside but also the shoulder line, hatch, rear glass, etc.
I bet the 08 Tribeca gets cleaner lines but the same basic look - which I think will look great.
I never disliked the grille (I think my first reaction was "much ado about nothing") but a more generic grille will at least take the attention off that area and people can appreciate the overall shape, which I've always liked.
Looking forward to seeing it.
I'm not crazy about the Impreza grille - it looks too much like the one Chrysler is using. Hope there is a non-chrome option for the 'beca.
No. Everyone "gets a manual" because the EAT in the WRX is not a legitimate performance variant and is being added to a car billed as a high-performance product. Put in a valid 5EAT (or 6EAT) with performance ratios and paddle shifters and the market will sing, since this is the good old USA where EATs are king. I am assuming that a true Auto-manual like the BMW SMG is too expensive to be paired with a product like the WRX.
Put in a 4EAT with no paddle shifters and ratios fit for a grandmother (as we have now) and to add insult to injury, charge nearly $30K for it, and the market will shun the product - no rocket science there. In fact, it is a blatant insult to people's intelligence. Once again, get rid of the product manager who made this decision, since the company would be much better off without him/her.
-mike
:P xEleventybillion
~Colin
I'm big enought to know when I'm wrong, also the L was NA and had a broader torque band more suited for the AT than the rather narrow band of power that a Turbo has.
-mike
When I had my OB XT with the 5EAT, that was the first (and only) auto-trans car I owned that did not feel like a penalty to me. Between the sport mode and the shifter buttons on the wheel, it was damn good and made the most of the turbo motor. That same level of tech (or better) belongs in the WRX. Personally, I think they would make quite a hit with the younger crowd if they tried to emulate the direct-shift gearbox in the rally cars, complete with the digital gear readout on the dash. Even if it was an auto trans lurking underneath and faking the whole thing, the young tuner crowd would eat it up. Most of those dopes can't drive manual trans anyhow.
Craig
-mike
My RDX is a base model, but the "tech" model has a display like that which shows the variation front/back and side/side as the SH-AWD does its thing.
25 NX 450h+ / 24 Sienna Plat AWD / 23 Civic Type-R / 21 Boxster GTS 4.0
I still think highly of the OB XT and would not hesitate to recommend it heartily. The 07 model's SI drive gets a couple more MPG than my 05, and offers VDC now. If you are OK with the smallish interior and handling, it's one of the best wagons around. I do prefer the 05-07 front end better than the cheesy face coming in 2008.
Craig
~alpha
Bob
I was surprised to see that the Forester and Outback have virtually the same leg room measurements for the rear seat. I have a Forester now and 4 adults is a tight fit. The Outback, despite another 12" in overall length and 6" increase in wheelbase, appears to be no better.
Besides that, it seems like a great candidate for the 'one car to rule them all'...
25 NX 450h+ / 24 Sienna Plat AWD / 23 Civic Type-R / 21 Boxster GTS 4.0
Where the heck is that rebirth of the legend???? :sick:
There is a chance it's going to look better in person, as many of them did before, but if "it counts what's inside", as they used to put it... Same engine, same transmission. Reborn? hardly.
There will be some good point, no doubt - but they start looking awfully like domestics - always behind, always too little, always enough to make beancounters happy.
2018 430i Gran Coupe
The current interior design looks like it's from the 90s (it mostly is), and the new one is nicely updated.
I'm not sure I like the fact that they went with a smallish 5 door hatch rather than a wagon, but I'd be looking at a Forester any how. With a wheelbase at least as long, and a boxy rear section, that could be sweet.
The 4EAT will present a much bigger problem for the Forester, though. All its competitors have 5 ratios nowadays, and have had stability control for a couple of years now. If they do not update the tranny and add VDC to the Forester, sales will fade slowly. I hope they don't make those 2 mistakes.
If all that happens I may try to convince the wife to take the big car and I'll get one of those down the road some time.
Bob
-mike
Bob
Having owned an 04 WRX wagon for 2 years (from 03-05) I grew quite fond of the little wagon's utility, but the decision to turn the wagon (albeit a small wagon) into a 5 door hatch is a step backwards in my opinion. At least the rear seat room is reported to be larger, but I fear seat-down cargo room has suffered in the transformation...and that was one of my favorite features of my WRX.
I am pleased to see an updated interior, as that was one area of my 04 that was a little lacking -- it felt comparatively cheap sitting in the driveway next to our 04 Accord. The 08 looks to be more upscale.
To my eyes, though, the WRX has never been better than the 02/03 "google eyes". That design still gets me and I feel it is still a knockout everytime I see one one the road.
Brian
Hatches are smaller than wagons, but they are in vogue in the pocket rocket class, and there's always the Forester if you want to be practical.
I can't blame them for that, it will segregate the models more, and too much overlap was probably the biggest criticism in the past.
Perhaps I'm not bothered because I would get a Forester any way.
I don't think cargo room will suffer. That rear suspension is much more compact, so the cargo well will likely be a lot deeper, and not have the rather large strut towers eating up half the cargo space like they do now. It may not be as long, but it should be wider and deeper.
I bet the rear seat is moved way back, too. Maybe they'll put a stackable shelf and create a tallish cargo area.
I liked the bug eyes, too, but it was more controversial that even this new design.
Perhaps Subaru should have launched the STI first, then people wouldn't be as critical.
Kept the '99 for a few years after WRX release and then bought a used M3. So.. no, I'm not a big fan of the bugeye. Europe and Asia weren't either, the sales dropped compared to the previous generation (they had a WRX for a long time, obviously).
~Colin
While I agree that the 4EAT is a disappointment if it indeed is the automatic du rigeur (is that the expression I'm looking for?), I don't think it automatically spells disaster. VDC, OTOH, I think is a much bigger issue, especially since SoA paints billboards, websites, magazine ads.... with messages about safety.
~alpha
Plus, the CR-V got a 5 speed with the last generation model, and that outsells both.
I think Mitsu even put in a 6 speed, though they're still only a small player.
Let's just hope they do make VDC standard on the Forester, given the extra year of delay before the intro, and especially given its competitors are much more likely to have VSC than any other segment.
First, the 02-03 bugeyes. I thought 911 and E-class, but everyone said they looked downmarket. Now they have a cult following.
Same for the 04-05 bugeyes. While less controversial, I don't think anyone loved them.
Then the 06-07, people cried about the air plane wings. Today most people don't seem to mind them at all.
Now a conventional look, and people still cry.
You can't win.