If it's not based on traditional Subaru-type running gear/engineering—not interested.
Interesting to note however, is that the Aussies still continue to market El Camino/Ranchero-type vehicles (Ute), and not just from Holden. I know Ford does the same too.
AWD systems are not created equal. There are quite a few technologies out there and each manufacturer uses their own "branding" to further differentiate their system from the competition.
AWD often describes a 4WD system that's always active (or ready to react automatically) and has no low gearing.
Basically, an AWD system needs to be able to transfer power from the engine to all four tires. There are two distinct ways one can do this. The first is a mechanical linkage that through gears or other couplings connect the front and rear wheels to engine power. This type of AWD relies on the laws of physics to make AWD happen. Subaru's manual transmission vehicles with it's viscous coupling is one example of this type. Another would be Audi's Quattro system based on a Torsen differential. I believe most AWD vehicles of this type often have "default" power splits close to 50/50 since they are reactive.
The second type major group of AWD systems rely on electronic sensors or other mechanisms that measure slip and then reroute power as necessary. Subaru's automatic transmission vehicles use an electronically controlled clutch pack to transfer power to the rear wheels when necessary. Another example would be the systems found in the Escape, CR-V and MD-X. Theses systems can have a wide range of "default" settings ranging from pure front-wheel drive to some power going to the rear, as in the case with our Subarus (90/10).
Note that this is a gross oversimplification and there are many shades of grey in between. For example the MB ML series uses a completely open differential system but employs it's ABS system to individually brake a spinning wheel. The latest VDC system from Subaru is also similar in concept.
Since most of these vehicles were not mean to go crawling up boulders, they all work fine in poor weather conditions on the road. However, certain systems do react quicker/better than others. For example, the CR-V is normally 100% front wheel drive (hence the marketing name "Real Time 4WD"). Power is briefly sent to the rear tires only after the front tires slip to some extent.
Subaru MT vehicles also require slip to transfer power between the front and rear wheels but since it's default split is 50/50, it's less likely to slip to begin with. 4EAT vehicles start from 50/50 in 1st, 2nd and reverse so the same applies here.
I could keep rambling on and on, but I hope you get the jist.
Good writeup on the AWD systems. I wonder if there is a way to electronically control the torque split by somehow tapping into the ECU or the 4EAT ECU?
I currently own a 2000 2.5 RS sedan and I recently (twice) drove the new WRX turbo sedan. I was not all that excited about this car. Actually I think the wagon looks better. I do think it's a good car for the money, but in order to get the power out of it I had to drive it like I stole it. I would imagine that this would be a difficult car to drive fast since I had to constantly down shift to keep the power coming. Also I drove other cars with around 190 HP which felt much more powerful and responsive. Now I must say that I absolutely love Subaru for the AWD. You just can't beat the price to get a car with AWD. The AWD Audi is twice as much. I also think the WRX needs to have 17' wheels, but I couldn't believe that this option was well over 3K. I think I'll stick with the RS for a while but I'm sure I'll be with Subaru for quite a while.
As one who has lived w/my WRX wagon for several months and 2800 miles, I can tell you that you don't have to drive it like you stole it to enjoy its powerband. Sounds like someone just needs a little justification to keep their RS... :-)
This morning I actually got to sit in an '02 OBS and my opinion has been reinforced. Not only do the seats look like burlap, they feel like it too! Especially bad if you're wearing shorts, like I was. I could see getting strawberries off them while engaging in spirited driving. Maybe that's why you'd need the WRX wagon. I did like the height adjuster better than fiddling with the seat cushion angle knobs in order to elevate it.
To others' points the new Forester S upholstery is better looking than the 98-00 variety - more subtle. Feels about the same though.
I think people have discussed trying to re-wire the 4EAT TCM module to keep the torque split 50:50 but I've never heard of it actually being done.
My concern is that the system wasn't designed to run at 50:50 for extended periods of time in higher gears (ie. higher speeds). If it were that easy, I don't think Subaru would have come out with VTD.
Hmmm, I have to agree that the Holden SS Ute doesn't so much remind me of the STX to me as it does simply a seriously updated Chevy El Camino. Not that that's a bad thing. A few guys I knew in the late '70s had V8 El Caminos, and those things were just wicked fast (though I got the vague impression that handling in rainy/icy weather could be problematic because of the light rear end).
I have a feeling that the new Altima may just create a new paradigm for Japanese family sedans. Both the performance and styling take such leap forward from what we've come to expect from Japanese family sedans, that, IMHO, it will have a major impact on what we see from future Camrys, Accords, Legacys, etc.
When I first heard of Renault coming to save Nissan, I like many others had reservations. However, after seeing what Nissan has accomplished in this past year or so, and after having seen the new Altima, I have to say I'm impressed.
The new Altima (and Q45), are so much better than their predecessors, there's hardly any comparison. The styling, for a Japanese vehicle, is bold as well as being good looking. I don't think we would have seen vehicles that look like this if they were still under old Japanese management. There is clearly a "European" influence as to how these vehicles look.
From a power standpoint, the Altima comes standard with a 180 HP 2.5L four, and offers an optional 240 HP 3.5L V6. Nothing in this class even comes close to matching that.
So, where does that leave Toyota and Honda? You can bet they won't stand still for long. Honda already has a 3.5L V6 in the MDX. That could certainly trickle down into the Accord. Toyota already has a 3.4L V6 in the FourRunner that could perhaps be turned 90 degrees and work in a FWD car. Think not? Keep in mind the Pathfinder is also a 3.5 V6, and I bet more than just a few parts are shared between it and the Altima. Toyota could do the same thing.
And, of course, what about Subaru? What will they do to counter the Altima 3.5 V6?
As of right now they don't offer anything that would offer a quick and easy fix. They could certainly pop a turbo on the current H-6, or bore and stroke the H-6 to make it larger. Although, I don't know how mach larger the 3.0 can grow?
The next couple of years should be interesting, to say the least.
If anything it will get the 3.2l that's in the TLS. Which pumps out 260hp. Drove it over the weekend since my uncle just picked the TLS up a few weeks ago.
The Altima is actually a Stanza, Altima is just the trim level. That is a little known factoid about the Altima.
I'd have to say that the Legacy right now is the closest you can get to a European sport sedan (GT models) in "feel" despite the small engine... The Altima definatly wont be the first to give that impression...
And no, the H6 wont make it into the GT from what all the execs and reps have been saying if you been paying attention... Either the 2.0 or 2.5 turbo will probably show up next model year, and that would DEFINATLY put it into competition with the european lot AND the altima for performance/style/lux
But it is essentially replacing the Maxima IMHO. It will basically just bump all the cars up a notch, not really as earthshattering as one might think. Then you'll have the Large Maxima, the med-sized Altima, and the small sentra. There has been a shift in the past 5-7 years toward larger/more powerful cars anyway. I've been screaming for 2 years that subaru needs a new bigger car platform, but no one listens...
Also don't forget that Honda isn't gonna shoot their acura sales in the foot by bumping up the hp in the accord too much. They would rather sell less TLs at a higher profit, than more accords with less margin.
I think it's at its high point. Good heavens, just look at those behemoth gussied up trucks from Lincoln and Cadillac. I don't think we'll be seeing much more in the way of that trend. Instead I think we'll see stuff like the next generation of Civic being smaller than the last. Plus the SMART is coming to America, plus the new Mini, yada yada. Gas prices, conservation concerns, empty nests, and so on, will feed the trend towards smaller size IMO.
I'd rather see Subaru flesh out the lines they have before they commit to anything bigger. Even then I'd rather see them go down a level and reintroduce a Justy-sized AWD line; CVT, hybrid, do the works. That's where the trend lines are heading, and that's where Subaru's core competencies lie - not in big cars.
hasn't been used since 1993. I had a 94 Altima, and the Stanza name was nowhere to be found on the car or in any of the documentation. It might have still existed outside the US market.
All the stickers I've ever seen on altimas have said in small print "Stanza" Any my buddy's '96 Altima also had small stanza tags on the inner door frames and references in the manual. Also my buddy's '98 Altima also had "stanza" on the window sticker.
I dunno, maybe it's cause I'm a bit large, but the legacy is a just a bit too small for my liking. If subaru wants to go upscale and compete with the BMWs in the 30K range they need to make the legacy an inch or 2 wider and longer. Also need to make the 6 cylinder optional on its cars so that accord and camary buyers will not shy away. SUVs not counting, most cars have been getting bigger the past few years. I don't expect the SUVs to get larger, but the cars will get up in size at least a little.
On the XT6 MT, could actually lock the car in 50/50 split, cause it had an air-locker on the center diffy... Man those old Subies were good (we had guages of all variations as well) twist twist...
I wonder if there is something in the current Owners Manual for 4EAT vehicles that caution against prolonged driving in 1st or 2nd gear. Isn't the clutch pack fully activated in those gears?
Cool, a lockable diff. Sounds like Subarus have lost some features as time goes on.
The Altima, Accord, and Camry are being marketed as "family" cars (where size DOES matter), much like a Taurus. These cars have been growing steadily with each new remake. The question is, is Subaru also going to go after that market?
As to the Maxima, that's a good question. The new I-30 is to become an I-35, using a version of the new Altima engine. So, where does that leave the Maxima?
Are you guys forgetting that the Legacy made a HUGE jump in size in 2000???!!!
And if it were any longer or bigger, we wouldnt have bought it :P (garage space concerns)
And its already bigger than the 3-series in every dimension... It doesnt need any more size! A whole new line would have to be made, but Subaru is a small car niche player for a reason folks... :P
folks. I thought I posted the torque split info. a while ago. I'll get my notes today and post the information later (I don't want to go by my feeble memory).
Is BMWs smallest vehicle, the Legacy is subarus largest vehicle... What I propose is a new model that is a bit larger a "full-size" (not what I consider a full-size) vehicle. The Legacy is still smaller than the accord (at least on the inside) and camary.
I was at Flemington recently talking with Ridge about the tow hooks on the OB and new Impreza's. I wanted to take a peek at them but he said it was a real pain to put the covers back on. Actually, he said "it would take half a day". :-) He reminded me about the air bag problem and said if people can find a way to do something, they will.
I didn't actually see the ST-X, but I hope it will come with more "user friendly" tow hooks. Anyone that does a little exploring will want easy access to them. I've used mine a few times and can't imagine off-roading without easy tow hook access.
One distinction that I think should be made in discussing the growing car sizes is interior space vs overall car size. Now it is true that the 2002 Altima will be a bigger car than the previous model, but its length and width will not be far from the Maxima. The interior, however will be a good deal larger thanks to cab foreward design ect. The way I see it is that cars aren't necessarily getting that much bigger, but engineering techniques are allowing designers to make vehicles with a greater amount of usable interior space.
BTW the 2002 Maxima is said to be getting a 260 hp version of the 3.5L. It is going to be moved more upscale than the Accord/Camry which is the target of the new Altima. Nissan used to try to compete in this segment with two models, a 4cyl Altima and a 6cyl maxima, now it is going with the Honda/Toyota/VW approach by offering 2 engines on the same platform. What this will do the Maxima, we shall see.
As far as Subaru goes, I do not see a need to compete with these models. While it is true I cross shopped a Maxima and a WRX, they offer many different things. AWD for instance. Also Subaru offers what is probably the best selection is sport utility wagon which is my guess to be the logical progression of the next big thing, something that Toyota, Honda and Nissan cannot even touch. Yeah more power would be nice for some models, but I would put my WRX wagon up agains any of the above mentioned any day.
I would in particular like to know if it will have a convertible midgate system. Without that I would not be interested in this vehicle. With it, I will wait for my next vehicle purchase to be an STX.
Rumor or fact? I saw a link here a while back to a magazine article that said that. In that case, there would be only about a 55 inch bed. If it is true, I wonder if they'd just put rails on the tailgate like the Exploder Sport Trac has. The big question though is will there be a bed monkey available. ;-)
Speaking of rumors, I've heard every possible engine imaginable. Turbo 4, S/C 4, N/A 4, H6. Who knows? Still over a year away and I'm interested as well.
edit: I wonder if they would not put the mid-gate in because it has something to do with the number of rear passengers? The ST-X can only hold two in the back. Dennis
The reason that you saw a very small Stanza tag in the trunk of the first-year Altimas was due to Nissan's need to quickly certify their new Altimas in the US. By leaving the vestigial Stanza name on the vehicle they could avoid certain technicalities of the certification process.
I owned a Stanza. The first generation Altima was a totally different vehicle.
From what I have heard, the concerns with the mid-gate design related to "safety" and testing with the glass going down into the seat. I know that they are still trying to find a way to make it work out, so I'll keep you posted. Also, thanks for the comment on the tow hooks, Dennis. I'll pass it on.
On the WRX, we took the tow hook covers off and had no problem popping them back on. I liked the way they were recessed into the bumper, but I've never used them in my cars, so I can't comment on functionality.
Dang, I hadn't heard of the midgate problems. I confess I was initially quite skeptical of the midgate concept (mainly worried about how well it could seal to avoid wind noise and potential rain leakage), but the early reviews I've seen of the Chevy Avalanche's midgate have been so positive that I was looking forward to seeing how well Subaru could implement the idea (on the general conceit that, given my anti-GM/pro-Subie bias, whatever Chevy could, surely Subaru could do as well or better).
Comments
Interesting to note however, is that the Aussies still continue to market El Camino/Ranchero-type vehicles (Ute), and not just from Holden. I know Ford does the same too.
Bob
-mike
Bob
Daniel
Ross
-mike
Dennis
AWD systems are not created equal. There are quite a few technologies out there and each manufacturer uses their own "branding" to further differentiate their system from the competition.
AWD often describes a 4WD system that's always active (or ready to react automatically) and has no low gearing.
Basically, an AWD system needs to be able to transfer power from the engine to all four tires. There are two distinct ways one can do this. The first is a mechanical linkage that through gears or other couplings connect the front and rear wheels to engine power. This type of AWD relies on the laws of physics to make AWD happen. Subaru's manual transmission vehicles with it's viscous coupling is one example of this type. Another would be Audi's Quattro system based on a Torsen differential. I believe most AWD vehicles of this type often have "default" power splits close to 50/50 since they are reactive.
The second type major group of AWD systems rely on electronic sensors or other mechanisms that measure slip and then reroute power as necessary. Subaru's automatic transmission vehicles use an electronically controlled clutch pack to transfer power to the rear wheels when necessary. Another example would be the systems found in the Escape, CR-V and MD-X. Theses systems can have a wide range of "default" settings ranging from pure front-wheel drive to some power going to the rear, as in the case with our Subarus (90/10).
Note that this is a gross oversimplification and there are many shades of grey in between. For example the MB ML series uses a completely open differential system but employs it's ABS system to individually brake a spinning wheel. The latest VDC system from Subaru is also similar in concept.
Since most of these vehicles were not mean to go crawling up boulders, they all work fine in poor weather conditions on the road. However, certain systems do react quicker/better than others. For example, the CR-V is normally 100% front wheel drive (hence the marketing name "Real Time 4WD"). Power is briefly sent to the rear tires only after the front tires slip to some extent.
Subaru MT vehicles also require slip to transfer power between the front and rear wheels but since it's default split is 50/50, it's less likely to slip to begin with. 4EAT vehicles start from 50/50 in 1st, 2nd and reverse so the same applies here.
I could keep rambling on and on, but I hope you get the jist.
Happy AWDing!
Ken
bit
-mike
Besides, I can buy a Liberty. I can't buy a Holden...
Bob
-mike
Stephen
To others' points the new Forester S upholstery is better looking than the 98-00 variety - more subtle. Feels about the same though.
Ed
I think people have discussed trying to re-wire the 4EAT TCM module to keep the torque split 50:50 but I've never heard of it actually being done.
My concern is that the system wasn't designed to run at 50:50 for extended periods of time in higher gears (ie. higher speeds). If it were that easy, I don't think Subaru would have come out with VTD.
Ken
When I first heard of Renault coming to save Nissan, I like many others had reservations. However, after seeing what Nissan has accomplished in this past year or so, and after having seen the new Altima, I have to say I'm impressed.
The new Altima (and Q45), are so much better than their predecessors, there's hardly any comparison. The styling, for a Japanese vehicle, is bold as well as being good looking. I don't think we would have seen vehicles that look like this if they were still under old Japanese management. There is clearly a "European" influence as to how these vehicles look.
From a power standpoint, the Altima comes standard with a 180 HP 2.5L four, and offers an optional 240 HP 3.5L V6. Nothing in this class even comes close to matching that.
So, where does that leave Toyota and Honda? You can bet they won't stand still for long. Honda already has a 3.5L V6 in the MDX. That could certainly trickle down into the Accord. Toyota already has a 3.4L V6 in the FourRunner that could perhaps be turned 90 degrees and work in a FWD car. Think not? Keep in mind the Pathfinder is also a 3.5 V6, and I bet more than just a few parts are shared between it and the Altima. Toyota could do the same thing.
And, of course, what about Subaru? What will they do to counter the Altima 3.5 V6?
As of right now they don't offer anything that would offer a quick and easy fix. They could certainly pop a turbo on the current H-6, or bore and stroke the H-6 to make it larger. Although, I don't know how mach larger the 3.0 can grow?
The next couple of years should be interesting, to say the least.
Bob
The Altima is actually a Stanza, Altima is just the trim level. That is a little known factoid about the Altima.
-mike
And no, the H6 wont make it into the GT from what all the execs and reps have been saying if you been paying attention... Either the 2.0 or 2.5 turbo will probably show up next model year, and that would DEFINATLY put it into competition with the european lot AND the altima for performance/style/lux
What I'm saying is that the new Altima could very easily disrupt what is thought to be the "logical progression" of this class of car.
Whether it's a Stanza or not, is not important. What is important, is that it could have a major impact in the marketplace.
Bob
Also don't forget that Honda isn't gonna shoot their acura sales in the foot by bumping up the hp in the accord too much. They would rather sell less TLs at a higher profit, than more accords with less margin.
-mike
I'd rather see Subaru flesh out the lines they have before they commit to anything bigger. Even then I'd rather see them go down a level and reintroduce a Justy-sized AWD line; CVT, hybrid, do the works. That's where the trend lines are heading, and that's where Subaru's core competencies lie - not in big cars.
My 2 cents US ;-)
Cheers,
-wdb
-mike
-mike
You would burn up the multiplate clutch pack in short order if you forced the 4EAT into 50/50 all the time.
-Colin
-mike
Cool, a lockable diff. Sounds like Subarus have lost some features as time goes on.
Ken
As to the Maxima, that's a good question. The new I-30 is to become an I-35, using a version of the new Altima engine. So, where does that leave the Maxima?
Bob
They used to have dual-range transmissions here in the US, and they had hillholders, air suspensions...
-Colin
-mike
And if it were any longer or bigger, we wouldnt have bought it :P (garage space concerns)
And its already bigger than the 3-series in every dimension... It doesnt need any more size! A whole new line would have to be made, but Subaru is a small car niche player for a reason folks... :P
Patti
-mike
I didn't actually see the ST-X, but I hope it will come with more "user friendly" tow hooks. Anyone that does a little exploring will want easy access to them. I've used mine a few times and can't imagine off-roading without easy tow hook access.
Dennis
BTW the 2002 Maxima is said to be getting a 260 hp version of the 3.5L. It is going to be moved more upscale than the Accord/Camry which is the target of the new Altima. Nissan used to try to compete in this segment with two models, a 4cyl Altima and a 6cyl maxima, now it is going with the Honda/Toyota/VW approach by offering 2 engines on the same platform. What this will do the Maxima, we shall see.
As far as Subaru goes, I do not see a need to compete with these models. While it is true I cross shopped a Maxima and a WRX, they offer many different things. AWD for instance. Also Subaru offers what is probably the best selection is sport utility wagon which is my guess to be the logical progression of the next big thing, something that Toyota, Honda and Nissan cannot even touch. Yeah more power would be nice for some models, but I would put my WRX wagon up agains any of the above mentioned any day.
-mike
-Colin
In that case, there would be only about a 55 inch bed. If it is true, I wonder if they'd just put rails on the tailgate like the Exploder Sport Trac has. The big question though is will there be a bed monkey available. ;-)
Speaking of rumors, I've heard every possible engine imaginable. Turbo 4, S/C 4, N/A 4, H6. Who knows? Still over a year away and I'm interested as well.
edit: I wonder if they would not put the mid-gate in because it has something to do with the number of rear passengers? The ST-X can only hold two in the back.
Dennis
soon2bsubee:
The reason that you saw a very small Stanza tag in the trunk of the first-year Altimas was due to Nissan's need to quickly certify their new Altimas in the US. By leaving the vestigial Stanza name on the vehicle they could avoid certain technicalities of the certification process.
I owned a Stanza. The first generation Altima was a totally different vehicle.
On the WRX, we took the tow hook covers off and had no problem popping them back on. I liked the way they were recessed into the bumper, but I've never used them in my cars, so I can't comment on functionality.
Thanks.
Patti
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Drew
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4EAT - torque split in R, 1 & 2 - It varies depending on the driving conditions, road conditions, up/down hill, etc.
Newer 4EAT =1999+ (not VTC) are 80 front 20 rear and can be adjusted to 60 front and 20 rear.
VDC (VTC) is 45 front 55 rear and can be adjusted to 50/50.
Manual transmissions - 50/50 upt to 60/40 depending on the circumstances.
Hope this helps!
Patti
Ross
Ed