Subaru Crew - Future Models II

ateixeira · July 2001

The Mitsu probably uses Chrysler's Autostick hardware. I haven't sampled it myself.

-juice

paisan · July 2001

You answered your own question. Most people really want an automatic, the manumativ gives them the opportunity to get a 1/2 decent shift, not as good as a true MT, but better than an AT, but without the expense of always having an MT.

-mike

kate5000 · July 2001

I always need one of my hands to keep kids from fighting on the back seat...

qbrozen · July 2001

I do prefer manual in the cars that I can afford, but there are some very expensive cars out there that have a semi-manual that does outperform full manual. Ferrari has been doing it forever. BMW recently developed one that does something like .06 sec. shift (if I remember correctly) and even the ability to let the engine rev up at a standstill before engaging first gear. Wish I could remember the link to the description of that tranny. I got it somewhere here on edmunds from another poster.

In other words, you shouldn't dismiss all semi-manuals based on the low-end breed that we find in easily accessible production cars at just about every dealer these days. They can be done very well.

rsholland · July 2001

I would probably keep it in the "auto" mode most of the time. However, there will be those times when I find a nice winding roadand I feel like playingwhere I would make use of the manual mode.

Bob

armac13 · July 2001

that's exactly how I would use it. In the last year I have become used to being shiftless but on my fishing trips I have been finding lovely winding mountain roads and being able to really shift would be oh so nice!

Ross

paisan · July 2001

I do that now with my ATs anyway. I just drop it into 3 or 2 if need be on mt. roads. I bet a manmatic would be nicer on the tranny though when doing those kind of things.

-mike

armac13 · July 2001

I too am getting used to downshifting with the AT, but it's not very responsive, certainly much less so than the manumatic on the MB M series I drove, and I suspect it won't do the longevity any good to shift that way very often.

Ross

ateixeira · July 2001

Given most Subies have 4 cylinder engines, it's important to stay in the power band, so manual controls could be a big plus.

Still, I say one-up Audi with the first AWD CVT. It could potentially replace both manuals and automatics, because it could be quicker and more efficient than both.

For control freaks like me, give us modes to choose from, like economy (to meet CAFE standards) and sport (engine at peak torque).

-juice

p0926 · July 2001

Rob- I've heard that there are some very expensive cars out there that have full-automatic trannys that can outperform a manual in 0-60 times. That being the case, then what purpose does the manumatic serve?

-Frank P.

ateixeira · July 2001

Control.

For example, what if you approach a curve going fast, and redline in 2nd gear. A regular auto will shift to 3rd and you'll lose engine braking, which is something you desire at the time but the tranny computer is clueless.

Or, you're approaching a steep hill and you're in 4th, so you plan ahead and shift to 3rd so as to not lose speed. The auto tranny would leave it in 4th, lose speed, and only then shift to 3rd.

Try as they may, there is simply no way a tranny can read your mind. Even if they try to "learn" the way you drive, they'll be wrong unless you are 100% consistent in your driving.

-juice

p0926 · July 2001

Ross- Bad knees? Whatever happened to the myth that all Canadians were rugged self-sufficient types? Why heck, even my parents, who are both well into their seventies, still drive manual trans equipped cars.

-Frank P.

p0926 · July 2001

Nope, sorry, I don't care what your arguments are, the only way I'm going to buy a non-manual equipped car is when they stop making manual transmissions all together. So there!

-Frank P.

ateixeira · July 2001

I'm not going to try to talk you out of them. By all means, buy true manuals. All 3 of our cars are, despite the toddler we cart around.

But Subaru could toss the others a cookie and offer a 5 speed manumatic.

-juice

rsholland · July 2001

will be the tip of the iceberg, in terms of future Subie mechanical upgrades. If a 5-speed automatic is going to show up any time soon, I would think this would be the vehicle to debut it (along with manu-matic and dual-range capabilities).

Bob

ateixeira · July 2001

Production is projected at just 24000 units per year for the first year. That's small cookies, even for Subaru. The Forester doubles that, and the Outback more than triples that volume.

But that's OK, if they wanted to test the waters with a new tranny, it's as good a bet as any.

Note that the concept had a true manual tranny, and their low range is only made for manuals.

Score one for Frank.

-juice

rsholland · July 2001

then the Forester... then the Legacy/Outback... then the Impreza... then the world...

Bob

rsholland · July 2001

the ST-X went from "idea" to finished "concept vehicle" in less than six months. It truly was a parts-bin-special. I'm hoping, with this passage of time, that we will indeed see some new technology (for Subaru) debut. The BRAT is the ideal vehicle for Subaru to get out and show some new engineering muscle. It's to Subaru what the Avalanche is to Chevy.

Bob

ateixeira · July 2001

Well, sort of. Avalanche had generous funding. GM trucks are an enormous cash cow, with up to $8000 profit per unit.

But I agree that the BRAT should be used to launch new features, particularly the low range (to the US).

-juice

qbrozen · July 2001

I'm not trying to convince you to go away from the manuals. Like I said, I prefer it as well. But, the fact is (and I failed to mention in my post) that some of those more "exotic" cars don't come with a full manual. I'm not sure of this, but I believe the F40 is one such car. However, I hope to own one someday. If that time ever comes, I'm sure not going to deny myself that vehicle just because its not a full manual.

rsholland · July 2001

is going to get a huge amount of attention from the automotive press, because it's so different from what's out there. It's a "natural" to showcase new technology.

Bob

armac13 · July 2001

Polio and soccer injuries in my youth are responsible for the knees. I'm still pretty self-sufficient, I can still wrestle a cougar if necessary, I just can't knee it in the groin (but as a Canadian I'd be too polite to do that anyway.) ;~) I hope your body does hold up better than mine. I too swore that I would quit driving before I'd use a slush box but the AT lets me save the knees for golf so I feel on the whole it's worth it.

Ross

dsackman · July 2001

Even the Formula 1 cars have manumatic gear boxes. The reason is for quicker shifting. There is a vestigial clutch for starting. After that it is paddles on the steering column for shifting up or down.

My Outback Sedan has the gated auto shifter and I often use it like manual box - engine braking, setting up for a corner, getting the motor in the power band for overtaking or hills. When stuck in traffic I just leave it in drive. Really the best of both worlds depsite being a compromise.

Daniel

dsackman · July 2001

It is my understanding that the Audi CVT (A6 and new A4) is programmed to give the impression that there are actual discrete gears, and not just one continuous gear. Anybody out there that understands the technology?

Daniel

kens · July 2001

Daniel,

Check out Audi's link for a fancy description on how CVT works:

http://www.audi.com/java/models/stage/technic/multitronic/satellit/fr_index_en.html

From what I understand, the Audi Multitronic offers a manumatic mode where the driver can up/down shift like with some auto trannies. Since there are no dedicated gears in a CVT, the Multitronic probably has some pre-programmed ratios that mimic those of a regular transmission.

Ken

subearu · July 2001

I use the AT as a manual quite a bit. I'll downshift it to 2 or 3 depending on my need (going into a turn, etc.) It is also useful when the AC is on and you're accelerating on an on-ramp. I keep it in 2 or 3 to allow the RPM's to get up there around 4k or so. Makes merging more fun!

-Brian

paisan · July 2001

Juice, the examples you gave can be compensated for with any standard automatic tranny. I do it often with the XT6 (you didn't even notice me doing it during the rally, er I mean covered bridge tour) About to go into a corner knowing I'm gonna be coming off the gas, I always throw it into 3rd so that I can power out of the turn. I think the MT would give better off the line acceleration though.

-mike

pattim3 · July 2001

I think that it will come out without a lot of the "wish list" things because they are trying to get it from concept to reality quickly - that being said, I think it and the company will move quickly after that launch with some more new and innovative things. Note: This is not an official Subaru response, just my opinion.

Patti

dsackman · July 2001

Ken,

I have read that article and I can only deduce that the stepped transmission changes in a constantly variable transmission is done electronically. It is quite disconcerting the first time you drive a CVT equipped car. The noise from the engine is does not seem to be synchronized with what the car is doing.

I like the concept very much, especially seeing that acceleration is better and fuel concumption is better. I wonder how she will pan out in real life driving situations.

Daniel

kens · July 2001

Daniel,

CVT isn't a new technology. It's been out for quite some time and some Subarus in Japan even use it. In the US, the Civic HX and some other hybrid vehicles have it.

I've test driven one and it's kind of neat. You step on the gas, the tach goes up and just stays at a certain level. Once you back off the gas, the tach just smoothly drops and hovers at a more economical level.

Ken

rsholland · July 2001

Sorry to hear that about the BRAT. I know it's just your opinion, but you certainly have the inside line, more so than any of us.

As I've said before, if it's nothing more than Subaru's rendition of a Chevy El Camino, for me it will be a big disappointment. It needs to be more than just an Outback with an open bed.

Bob

kostamojen2 · July 2001

The F1, as well as Ferrari styled manumatics, are NOT manumatics! They are true clutchless manuals, not funky automatics made to try and act like a manual shifter :P

ateixeira · July 2001

Bob's right. BRAT will get a lot of attention. It also will break through some boundaries if it's tough enough for the truck crowd.

Forester was successful in the mini-SUV arena, but the ST-X will go up against some heavy hitters in price and size.

Daniel: how do you like your sedan? I may take the wife to look at an H6 sedan. Fitzgerald has LL Beans for $26.7k, and the sedan is something like two grand cheaper. So potentially, about a year from now, we could be looking at an H6 for less than $25k.

I'd still prefer a Blitzen, but she's more like paisan in that she likes low end torque.

Notice how many times Audi said jerk and jolt? Are their automatics that bad? ;-)

Hmm, they use a multi-plate clutch and no torque converter. Cool. I believe it is stepless. The one with simulated steps was the Mini Cooper's, with 7 ratios used, and on US models only.

I wonder how US customers will like it. But with FWD only, it will be very low volume.

The CVT isn't new, even the Justys here had it. What is new is one that can handle more than 200 ft-lbs of torque. Also one in such a high-end vehicle.

-juice

paisan · July 2001

If I were SOA I wouldn't even try to market it toward the truck crowd. They should market it toward the Outback crowd that wants a bed. The "active lifestyle" people who bike, and hike, and do that type of stuff, and who want it to look cool in soho, and out at the beaches. The Brat IMHO is going to be a show-vehicle, not one directed at high volume utilitarian stuff. My buddy is a perfect example of a "truck" guy. He bought a ford ranger in '97 for $9K, no radio, 4 cylinder 2wd, cloth bench seat, AT, no A/C. It now has 150K miles and if it dies tomorrow, he hasn't taken a loss. The bed has been dented, he's hauled like 1 ton of cement blocks in it, there are some dents etc. As much as I like subies, I can't see a Brat weighing in at like 25K+ can compete with a $9-10K PU truck, nor should it.

-mike

ateixeira · July 2001

Crew cabs, though, run $25-30k well equipped. The current issue of Consumer Reports had one model over $30k.

It's going to get tougher with time. Eveyone and their mother is targeting the "active lifestyle" crowd. Even if it's the "pretend to be active but I'm really a coach potato" guys.

-juice

paisan · July 2001

Without a frame, the truck will be worthless as a truck. Yeah it can go after the Ford Explorer Tracks, the Frontiers, and the like, but most "Truck" people don't consider those to be trucks. I personally feel those trucks are funny. They have a super short bed, cramped rear seat, so basically they are useless since the bed is so small, and the cab is cramped!

As bob likes to call it, I think the Brat will just be a modern day "el camino" which isn't a bad thing.

-mike

ateixeira · July 2001

Dakota, Tacoma, Jimmy, and Fontier are really crew cab pickups. The Sport Trac is too, but Ford argues it's more car like because it was based on an SUV (the old Explorer).

So the BRAT will easily be the most car-like. The question is will it provide enough utility for buyers?

Projected volume is only 24000 per year. That's about as many F-150s as Ford built in the time it took me to write this post.

-juice

PS El Camino and Ranchero only had one row of seats. Big difference, since they could not carry families.

bluesubie · July 2001

I drive a manual but will strongly consider an automatic in my next vehicle. I'm glad I have a manual 90% of the time, but that other 10% my chondromalacia patella kicks in and I really dread it. Especially on long trips or stop & go traffic. Even the Hyundai Santa Fe comes with a manu-matic.
Has anyone ever read a review of the JDM sport-shifts? IMO, they're still going to keep the best goodies for themselves.

You people manually shifting your autos - you're not concerned about damaging it?

Hmm, so it sounds like Patti thinks some better items will come out after the BRAT's launch. I guess the 04 version will be better. If they call it the BRAT, at least they should have the Bi-Range tranny.
juice - re Consumer Reports. With the exception of towing and payload, the BRAT will likely be better in a lot of areas that they attacked those p/u's on. Bad gas mileage, rough ride, no full-time 4WD (except one?), etc.

Dennis

ateixeira · July 2001

Santa Fe also has rear disc brakes and even traction control (albeit only on one axle). Too bad they're so overweight.

I totally agree, Dennis. None of those pickups had a really high overall rating. I think the BRAT could easily lead that class in their ratings.

-juice

rsholland · July 2001

That means Subaru is going to cannibalize Outback sales, not gain market share?

I just hope it has Class II (3500 pounds) towing. Anything else will be frosting on the cake as far as I'm concerned.

Bob

paisan · July 2001

subaru makes sure to donate to the Consumer's Union

-mike

ateixeira · July 2001

So, Mr. Conspiracy Theory: do you think they rated the Forester highly to make up for the Trooper debacle, given the SIA link? ;-)

-juice

paisan · July 2001

They STILL haven't re-tested the Trooper, which IMHO shows that they really aren't very objective if they haven't tested a car since '96 that failed to pass.

Forester could have passed because SOA sells em like hotcakes and could afford to tip the Consumer's Union

-mike

amishra · July 2001

Most automatics shift quite abruptly if they have suddenly increase RPMs by downshifting. The Audi manumatic doesn't do that, since it has essentially, an infinite number of positions between the lowest and highest ratio.

So I think they were referring to Automatic transmissions in general.

It's interesting though that the manumatics are only slighly better than a stick shift for economy. For longevity of the transmission, they will likely last much much longer...

bluesubie · July 2001

IIRC, CU was charged in the late 80's of accepting bribes (or something to that effect).
Anyone else know more?

Dennis

ateixeira · July 2001

I noticed they haven't included Hyundai in many of their surveys recently, including their buyer's guide and their auto issue. I wonder if it was the threat of lawsuits.

To me, an organization like that has to have some serious cojones. You're right - they should retest the Isuzu (twice by now) and publish results for Hyundai, good or bad.

They have never lost a lawsuit, though. I found out that even in the Trooper case, Isuzu had to reimburse them for court costs. They got a slap in the wrist for some statements made in press releases, but there were not found guilty of libel as Isuzu claimed.

-juice

dsackman · July 2001

Steve: Do you care to explain how the F1 gear box works please.

Dennis: How do you think manually shifting the auto box may cause any damage? I cannot think about a way it can be done. The electronics actually protects the box. You can select lowest gear, but will not change until the car travels at a low enough speed.

Daniel

ateixeira · July 2001

Daniel: that's good, because I've actually driven some cars that do *not* wait until the car slows down enough. The results were ugly (overrevving).

I think the Ferrari system has a hydraulic clutch that activates as you move the shift lever, automatically. It also costs something like $15 grand.

-juice

dsackman · July 2001

Someone asked how I like my Outback Sedan. The main reason I bought the car was to get something at a reasonable price with AWD and some back seat room. I have mixed feelings about the car. I have done 8000 miles since February 2001.

Likes:
- AWD
- Cabin space:- horizontal space, not head room
- Economy:- fuel consumption
- Sound system
- Gated pattern on auto shifter
- Adjustable lumbar support and heated seats
- Features:- Power everything
- Looks

Dislikes/Concerns:
- I am not comfortable with the car after I slid and crashed in the snow/ice.
- Head room:- I am 6' tall.
- Trunk hinges pushing into trunk area when closing. The center, rear shoulder seat belt protruding into the trunk area.
- Concerned about the longevity of the seat leather. It seems to be of a low quality.
- Could do with a more powerful motor. A small turbo will do it. She runs out of steam with 4 people above 6000' altitude.

I am busy chatting with my dealer to see how we can possibly get me out of the lease and into a WRX Wagon.

Daniel

ateixeira · July 2001

You have the moonroof, right?

Your crash sounds like a plug for VDC now that it's available.

The wife would want the H6 or a turbo, for sure. She loves torque.

-juice

Subaru Crew - Future Models II

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