Subaru Crew - Future Models II

rsholland · July 2001

have much more headroom than the sedans.

Bob

dsackman · July 2001

The Outback Sedan comes standard with a flip up and slide back sun/moon roof. The moonroof actually reduces head space by some 2-3 inches!

There is no doubt in my mind that VDC or the other variants with other manufacturers is a major safety feature for general driving. Like ABS I hope it will become standard in all cars with time.

Daniel

cptplt · July 2001

even with the AWD you really need snowtires, the traction is better and the braking much better.unfortunately nothing stops you skidding on ice but good snowtires go a long way to reducing your stopping distance.
Blizzaks are the best thing invented since sliced bread.
Unless you replace the RE92s on the WRX, you are no better off, those tires stink in snow.I'm on my 3rd Legacy now and two came with RE92s as OEM and anything but the RE92 , even other make all seasons are better than the RE92 - I've had Michelins and Pirellis which are better. But for winter get those snowtires on. Drove Des Moines to Chicago twice in snowstorm after plows had been pulled off the road with no trouble.Loved seeing all those SUVs and trucks in the ditch though!

ateixeira · July 2001

Let's not wish harm to others, now. ;-)

AWD will help with any tire, but mostly in getting forward progress. In a turn or in braking, you're right, it makes little difference.

-juice

bblacha · July 2001

Standard stability control might be the wave of the future. I read somewhere (autonews.com?) that the next generation of Chevy Malibu might have RWD, but only if GM-gineers can design a cheap version of Caddy's stability control. Otherwise the car would be too dangerous in the snow for the average driver.

Perhaps they could just adopt Subaru's AWD. Chevrolet Malibaru, don't it have a ring to it?

--Bart

bluesubie · July 2001

I'm not sure of the details, but a friend of mine ruined the tranny on his Accord by doing that. He had to pay a big repair bill, IIRC. I'll try to get more details.

This was recently discussed on the i-club. I'll try to dig up some topics. Oh yeah, then there was a post on there by Kevin Thomas entitled "My auto tranny went kaboom!" Ok, well he did have nitrous and a turbo. :-)

Dennis

ateixeira · July 2001

A RWD Malibu? Really? I guess if it was built off the Catera chassis.

I think that nitrous kit had a little something to do with that tranny failure.

-juice

qbrozen · July 2001

This is what I tell my wife:
"If they didn't want me shifting the auto, they wouldn't have made it so you don't have to push the button to slip between 3rd and 4th."

bluesubie · July 2001

This is what I found on the i-club:

http://www.i-club.com/forums/showthread.php?threadid=56120&referrerid=767

Didn't read all of the responses yet. Like everywhere, you get varied opinions, and a few seem very knowlegable. Subie Gal boiled her tranny doing this at a performance driving school.

Dennis

ateixeira · July 2001

The ATF does have the task of absorbing any differences in speed as you shift, so I can see that happening in a racing environment.

Day to day, shifting on occasion, I doubt it would hurt much.

Solution? Buy a manual! ;-)

-juice

subearu · July 2001

If you're not supposed to 'shift' an AT, then all of these manu-matics are wrong too. I say it's no harm, no foul.

-Brian

bblacha · July 2001

I dug up the reference:

http://www.autonews.com/html/main/stories0716/chevy716.htm

I got it mixed up, it's the Impala that's a candidate for RWD. Malibu will get AWD.
--Bart

subearu · July 2001

very interesting. would that make the legacy sedan and malibaru direct competitors though?

-Brian

paisan · July 2001

They are hopefully going to bring over the impala from the middle east AKA the Holden Commodore. They have traction control in it already over there. I've been saying it would make a great Impala SS

-mike

pmags · July 2001

When discussing the whole headroom/legroom thing (see post #2849) it's important to remember that no two people are built alike.

Like Daniel, I'm over 6' tall (6'1" to be precise), however my complaint is about the horizontal cabin space not the vertical cabin space. I'm comfy in my OB Wagon, but I'd love to have another horizontal inch or two to play with, particularly on road trips. In contrast to daniel, I find the vertical headroom to be huge.

I have long legs and a relatively short torso for a man of my height. I imagine (please correct me if I'm wrong), that Daniel is toward the other extreme.

The only way you'll know for sure how comfortable you are in any particular vehicle is to sit in it yourself!

Biometrically-y'rs,
Paul

miksmi · July 2001

Re: armac13 Jul 25, 2001 2:46pm

I just had to say I found your retort quite funny.. esp. the part about being a polite Canajian.

..Mike

dsackman · July 2001

Paul, I am perfectly proportioned, the ratio between my torso and the length of my legs fit into the 95 percentile out of a sample of 3,256 male caucasians living in North America.

Just joking. The reason for the reduced headroom is the 2-3 inch difference between the sedan and the wagon.

Daniel

dsackman · July 2001

Thanks for the responses. I did read the comments in this i-club place. I do not know what language those guys are talking. Weird things like NOS, WOTS and other statements that makes no sense in everyday driving.

So, what is the verdict? Is it bad to shift an auto box manually? What is the real difference then between the up and down shifting mechanism of the Acura's, BMW's and many others and the gated shift in the Subaru? There is no button to press to change the gears lower than 3rd. Why do the cars have the cabability to change to 1,2 and three if it is bad for the box?

So many questions, so few answers.

Daniel

amishra · July 2001

I used to drive a Chevy (yes, please send the symphathy letters and flowers to my g/f) Corsica, with an automatic transmission.

Being a young fella when I drove that car (16-18), and having driven stick shift alot, I used to always put the car in neutral at traffic lights. Mostly, because I got annoyed at having to hold the brake down.

Well, it eventually caught up with me, and the automatic transmission started going at about 150,000 miles. Basically it sometimes didn't upshift, so the car would just stay at high RPMs, and then for some reason after screaming along at high RPMs it appeared it would catch the next gear, and downshift with a rough jolt. The last time I drove it (about 2 years ago), it completely skipped 2nd gear, and basically upshifted at some high rpm in 1st to 3rd when the computer caught on.

Well, that's my story on shifting with Autos. My feeling, is that if you're going to shift, buy a manual transmission.

Then again, it was a Chevy.

qbrozen · July 2001

if anything, you got MORE than your alloted mileage on that car.

So i wouldn't blame the shifting.

bluesubie · July 2001

Daniel,
WOT = Wide Open Throttle
NOS = Nitrous Oxide, in particular the NOS brand.

IMO, a manumatic and a gated shifter are different animals. The manumatic is made to be shifted when you move the shifter over. The gates don't serve any purpose except cosmetic. The owner's manual speaks of putting it to 3rd on hills and 1st or 2nd if you're stuck.

This is my completely un-technical opinion. Maybe some more research is in order. :-)

Patti - Any advice?

Dennis

dsackman · July 2001

Dennis,

Thank you for the explanation. Well, if I do a WOT with a NOS repeatedly, I suppose anything can break. I doubt whether what those guys at the club described can be construed to be "normal" driving.

If the manual says to shift (on hills and when stuck), then I suppose it is OK to shift a automatic box manually?

Patti, any thoughts or suggestions please. Thanks.

Daniel

cb70 · July 2001

Talk about horsepower, I just bought an 88 Corsica with a 4 cylinder auto a month ago (Work beater for $250 quit laughing at me!) and I was passed on the way to work by an Allis Chalmers.

amishra · July 2001

Hi Cory, no I had an '89 V6 "hatchback" - which was actually quite sporty if you didn't try to take a corner at any speed or something difficult for Chevy's like that. (Well at least me dream!)

Then I bought a '94 MX-6 and the world was a better place. The Corsica became my winter beater. (And did I ever let the winter beat her!)

subearu · July 2001

The manu-matics just controls upshifts and downshifts electronically. The manu-matic itself is just an AT with fancy programming to allow the manual shifting.

So, if the computer can shift 'manually', I'd think a regular AT (even gated ones) can shift manually without causing any problems.

-Brian

dsackman · July 2001

Brian,

What you are saying sounds right.

However if you do a WOT with NOS (these acronyms are hilarious) you can do some serious damage to any mechanical device. Thus the comments from the i-club members.

~Daniel~

bluesubie · July 2001

Not every i-clubber in that link that had problems was running NOS at WOT. :-)
I've done some searches around the internet and found opinions varied also.

I would be interested in an SoA opinion though (officially or unofficially).

Dennis

rsholland · July 2001

over in the CRV area. Honda offers an Accord-based wagon (the Avancier) over in Japan, with one version offering 4WD. It may get exported to Europe. Is export to North America to follow (or would they build it here?)?

It looks like a worthy competitor to the Outback.

http://www.europeanhonda.demon.nl/avancier.htm

Bob

paisan · July 2001

NOS is gonna put an extra strain on any car, unless it has been built up for that type of duty. IMHO

-mike

amishra · July 2001

ok, I give ... what does NOS and WOT mean?

I don't have the time to go searching, so I'll just bow to the experts..

armac13 · July 2001

WOT - wide open throttle, NOS - nitrous oxide.

Ross

rsholland · July 2001

I just was talking to a guy who has a new blue WRX sedan with the 17"x7" wheels found on Japanese and Euro-spec WRXs.

Those wheels look FANTASTIC! They're better looking, IMO, than the 17" BBS wheels, and much better looking than the stock 16" rims. The car looks like it was made for those wheels. Period.

The guy said he ordered them from a dealer in the UK, and it cost him a bit over $900. That's a whole lot less than the $3000 BBS wheels.

Subaru, these wheels should be standard on North American WRXs. Patti, please put in the word...

BTW, he bought the car from Fitzgeralds in April. He loves it, but has noticed that the performance does suffer in high humidity. Anyone else notice that?

Bob

kens · July 2001

Bob,

Were those the Prodrive wheels? Those are pretty sweet.

Ken

subearu · July 2001

That thing looks like it's squeezed down in the back. Wonder what the cargo room is like.

At least we know Honda's 4WD system is way inferior to Subaru's AWD systems. So, in a sense, it just can't compete. :-)

Bob - why do you have to keep pointing me to that SOJ site? I keep finding the E-tune. ;-)

The Lancaster looks nice with tinted side windows. Bring those headlights over here!

-Brian

rsholland · July 2001

Ken-
Prodrive? I don't think so. The ones I saw today are the stock wheels sold overseas. If you go to the SOJ site (or any other overseas Subaru site), you can find them on their WRXsstandard! In any case, they look great. Much better than what we get here. I'm convinced that this car was designed from the get-go, with 17" wheels in mind. The stock 16" wheels just look timid in comparison.

Brian-
I like to tease and torment.

Bob

miksmi · July 2001

Here's a great applet for WOT, NOS, and abbreviations in general: www.atomica.com . You can easily turn it on and off. Very handy; another Crew member turned me on to it when it was gurunet (apologies, I forgot who that was).

..Mike

kens · July 2001

Bob,

I was refering to these babies:

Ken

rsholland · July 2001

although those wheels also look great. I really like the anthracite-colored wheels.

The ones I'm talking about are found on Glenn Wallace's site, on the upgrade link found here:

Scroll down to "Wheels" and find part # 2811AE001 (labeled Alloy Wheel 17" - 5 spoke Silver)

http://www.new-impreza.com/upgrades.htm

If I'm not mistaken, these are the wheels (17" - 5 spoke Silver) that are standard on WRXs from Japan, Australia, New Zealand, the UK, and just about everywhere else, but here in North America.

Bob

rsholland · July 2001

Yesterday I started a link over at the I-Club on these wheels. Here's the link and some responses (including a source, prices, and a picture):

Bob

http://www.i-club.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=76369

drew_ · July 2001

Oh those wheels! I saw the on the Australian and Japanese pages, but they looked similar to the ones that we get over here. I guess they're just 1" larger in diameter?

If they gave these as standard equipment, no one would want to purchase the 17" BBS wheels ;-)

Drew
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rsholland · July 2001

Why should the customer have to pay $3000, when these might add a few hundred (if that) to the purchase price, and look much better than the current wheels.

Besides, who's buying the BBS wheels anyway? I have yet to see one on a WRX around here. Oops, I did see one on a dealer lot, and it was sold, but that's it. I'm sure there are many dealers who have yet to sell even one set of those BBS wheels.

It has often been said that the difference between a genius and an idiot is a very fine line. The same holds true with design. While these wheels do indeed look very similar to the current wheels, the visual improvement (IMO) is huge. You have to see both the 16" and 17" versions on vehicles side-by-side to really notice the difference. I think it will surprise you.

Bob

francophile · July 2001

Without diving into the 9 bazillion messages posted since I last visited , let me just dump my 2 cents in. "Manumatic" trannies that are little more than a couple of pushbuttons on the steering wheel are, in my experience, worse than awful. "Manumatic" trannies that are actual manual transmissions, shifted via electronic signals and servos and whatnot and connected to the motor via a simililarly operated clutch are a whole different ballgame. The latter is what Ferrari does, the former is what you can get on an '01 Audi A4. Then there is the '02 A4 with the CVT, which I cannot WAIT to test drive and hear more about. If that puppy works it will break all the rules and make new ones.

Funny to see wheel discussions as I am in the throes of deciding whether or not to buy some. What's the consensus on a "Platinum" Legacy GT; would silver or anthracite look better?

Cheers,
-wdb

rsholland · July 2001

Anthracite wheels tend to look a bit more aggressive, if not downright nasty (which I like). Silver is more conservative.

I'd be looking more at the style of the wheel, then settle on color, assuming there are color choices available.

Bob

paisan · July 2001

Anthracite is nice cause it doesn't show brake dust.

-mike

barresa62 · July 2001

Here's the actual visual comparison. You can see the design of the 17" is a tad different and better IMHO. I like the fact that there is more wheel and less sidewall on the 17" vs 16". And, yes SOA screwed up bigtime for not offering this at least as an option, much the same way as not offering the heated seats/mirrors as an option.

http://i-club.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=76027

Stephen

drew_ · July 2001

Perhaps Subaru could provide these as an option, or at least a reasonable dealer-installed option. However, I think that they are doing the right thing by not offering them as standard equipment. I'm reminded of the Volvo 850 Turbo wheel problems from several years ago. Those standard equipment 16" wheels/low profile tires were easily getting damaged left right and centre from potholes/curbs and owners were not happy. At least as an option, the owners would know what they're getting into.

Heated mirrors (when tied into the rear defroster or as a seperate switch) are great for getting rid of the rain droplets too! :-)

Drew
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Vans, SUVs, and Aftermarket & Accessories message boards

rsholland · July 2001

Great link! The comparison between the two side-by-side really tells the story. Thanks.

BTW, I noticed the 17" rim was missing the center cap.

Bob

rsholland · July 2001

Even as a factory option, that would be fine too. At least that would give customers a reasonably priced factory option. It would certainly be better than the current situation.

Bob

ateixeira · July 2001

That Honda Avancier looks like the love child of the previous Odyssey and a Kio Rio Cinco wagon. In other words, ugly. Give me a squared off back like a Jetta or Forester, we choose wagons for utility!

Bob: my performance suffers in high humidity, but that's because I turn the A/C on! :-)

I prefer the Prodrive Anthracites over the stock 17" rims you're talking about. But it would be tough to satisfy everyone. Maybe as a stand alone option, 17"s would be good.

Drew is right in that a standard 16" rim is the safest way to go in the litigation-happy US. Plus, you can put snow tires, or even rally tires, on those rims and get a 2nd set.

What I like to see in such high performance vehicles is the brake discs and the calipers. I find 911 Turbo brakes more attractive than the cars themselves - marvelous. So if you go 17", I'd want an upgraded brake package too.

That may be SoA's thinking - save it for the STi.

-juice

rsholland · July 2001

is not much different than the Outback in terms of rake. It's certainly better than the Outback Sport.

Bob

Subaru Crew - Future Models II

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