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Subaru Crew - Future Models II

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Comments

  • bblachabblacha Member Posts: 160
    I dunno about the term "race car"...
    sounds too "racist" to me!

    (Don't mind me.)
  • paisanpaisan Member Posts: 21,181
    We better get back onto car topics, lest we have our posts deleted since they aren't car talk... ;)

    -mike
  • FrankMcFrankMc Member Posts: 228
    launch has cost them about $2k in advertising costs for each car sold (so far). Who says advertising works?
    This morning I saw an Audi quattro ad that looks like they copied it from the WRX Ad. Imitation is the sincerest form of flattery.

    Frank
  • jimmyp1jimmyp1 Member Posts: 640
    Found some people talking about the B4 on Yahoo groups this morning. Everyone in Australia is amazed at the pricing. In fact, they are saying that it is being priced LESS than the WRX. Amazing. If you go to the following link and look to the right hand side, you'll see the story about the B4. The horsepower (190 x 1.31 = about 250 hp) number is interesting. They say that it's lower than Japan spec (about 280 hp) because of inconsistent and lower octane gas in Australia. So, I guess my point is I still can't tell what we might get. I have the original paperwork from my 1994 Turbo Legacy, and, after all the options were added in, it was a $25k car. If what I'm seeing is correct, we could be getting a twin turbo Subaru, almost 10 years later, and with about 100 more horsepower, for about the same price. Amazing. This is the most excited I've been about a future car in years! I'll buy two!


    http://www.subaru.com.au/


    Jim

  • miksmimiksmi Member Posts: 1,246
    Jim, I certainly hope you're right! For those that haven't seen it, here's the FHI Blitzen site:
    http://www.subaru-sti.co.jp/blitzen/

    Glad to see Subaru of Australia imitating Subaru of America and using Flash.. NOT!

    heh, see the Subaru of Spain site: http://www.subaru.es/ -- oops.

    The cost of emissions testing is one issue that keeps the Blitzen out of the US. What about LHD vs. RHD? Australia, like Japan, has right hand driver seats. Are left hand drive Blitzens sold anywhere, or are all B4 markets (Australia, New Zealand, etc.) RHD?

    ..Mike

    ..Mike

  • rshollandrsholland Member Posts: 19,788
    Inteesting...

    It's got the new headlights from the home-market Legacys, but has the old (for USA) cupholders.

    I like the blue-lit instruments and blue-accented interior. Notice its got the $3K BBS wheels too. It's also got the audio and auto climate control system from our VDC model.

    Bob
  • rshollandrsholland Member Posts: 19,788
    Advertising only works if the product can support the claims. Great advertising with a lousy product still = lousy results.

    Bob
  • qbrozenqbrozen Member Posts: 33,754
    THAT is one nice-looking vehicle!

    '11 GMC Sierra 1500; '98 Alfa 156 2.0TS; '08 Maser QP; '67 Coronet R/T; '13 Fiat 500c; '20 S90 T6; '22 MB Sprinter 2500 4x4 diesel; '97 Suzuki R Wagon; '96 Opel Astra; '11 Mini Cooper S

  • rshollandrsholland Member Posts: 19,788
    From what I saw on the Aussie Subaru site, the B-4 is quite a bit more expensive than their H-6, and a lot more than their WRX.

    Aussie prices:

    Liberty B-4: $55,130

    Outback H-6: $51,990

    WRX sedan: $43,800

    So, when something like that arrives here, does that mean a $35K car (in today's dollars)?

    Bob
  • subearusubearu Member Posts: 3,613
    That's what I was afraid of - that it'll be priced over $30k and thus, out of our reach. I guess I can dream for now - until the prices start to become available.

    Maybe we'll just have to get a PLAIN ol' GT sedan instead when we replace my wife's car. ;)

    -Brian
  • jimmyp1jimmyp1 Member Posts: 640
    That's about 28k-29k in U.S. dollars, folks. Don't give up yet!

    Jim
  • rshollandrsholland Member Posts: 19,788
    It's priced higher than the Outback H-6 in Australia (which has VDC). All things being equal, it will also probably be priced higher than our VDC models, which would put it in the mid $30K range.

    Bob
  • jimmyp1jimmyp1 Member Posts: 640
    I'm the one who thought it would be pushing 40k, I just keep hoping I'm wrong.

    Jim
  • rshollandrsholland Member Posts: 19,788
    however, they offer it with the rumored 2.5 (single turbo), that would certainly be a cheaper engine to build, and then they could pass the savings on to the customer.

    Bob
  • miksmimiksmi Member Posts: 1,246
    Found a beginner's articled called Turbocharged Subaru (it's PDF) << on Subaru New Zealand <<. Nothing new but the highlights for the Legacy RSK B4 sedan and GT-B wagon are:

    twin turbo
    primary turbo (left cylinder bank) provides boost at 2,100 rpm.
    secondary turbo (right cylinder bank) provides boost at 2,600 rpm.

    The article ends with:

    Hot turbos do not like being turned off and being starved of their oil supply.

    true, true

    Cheers,

    ..Mike

    ..Mike

  • jimmyp1jimmyp1 Member Posts: 640
    there was someone on that same Yahoo groups page asking why he found a picture of a B4 with no hoop scoop. Someone pointed out that it was a B4 RS(no K for Kompressor). I hope Subaru doesn't just bring it over in N/A form initially. I want the full-boat RSK!!!

    Jim
  • rshollandrsholland Member Posts: 19,788
    That Subaru is using German terms such as "Kompressor."

    Bob
  • jimmyp1jimmyp1 Member Posts: 640
    the B4 is a joint effort between Subaru and Porsche. I've only heard that through chat groups, etc., but I've heard it more than once.

    Jim
  • rshollandrsholland Member Posts: 19,788
    it's the B-4 Blitzen that was co-developed with Porsche. However, it is well documented that Subaru has read and memorized Porsche's playbook. So, I guess it shouldn't be much of a surprise if a German word pops up ever now and then.

    Bob
  • jimmyp1jimmyp1 Member Posts: 640
    I forgot about the Blitzen. How does it differ from the RSK and GT-B, do you know?

    Jim
  • paisanpaisan Member Posts: 21,181
    You don't need a scoop to have a turbo car. I've seen some subarus with the intercooler in front of the radiator. Also the Blitzen is co-developed with Porsche. It is tuned by the same tuning company that Porsche uses. IIRC.

    -mike
  • kenskens Member Posts: 5,869
    Yep, Mike's right. Subaru worked with Porsche to tune the Blitzen. It's actually written (in Japanese) on their website.

    Ken
  • rshollandrsholland Member Posts: 19,788
    http://www.autoweb.com.au/start_/showall_/id_SUB/doc_sub0108062/article.html

    I believe they only get this in only the sedan format, and no wagon. Interesting... I hope that's not case here when we get the hot Legacy.

    Bob
  • jimmyp1jimmyp1 Member Posts: 640
    a sunroof again. Could be an option, but you'd think they would at least mention it. Oh well, that's still not a deal killer for me. Hey, I have a 5 year old question that this group can answer for me, I'll bet. When honeymooning in the Cayman Islands, I saw Legacies that had British (as you would expect) badging. In other words, they weren't Subaru Liberties, they actually had British graphics (Royal coat of arms type stuff) and possibly slightly altered sheet metal, just cosmetic though. Anybody know what these might have been?

    Jim
  • miksmimiksmi Member Posts: 1,246
    Bob, thanks for the link. Lots of technical detail, which raised a few questions.

    The cylinder heads have double overhead cams and direct actuation valves.

    What's a "direct actuation valve"?

    Front brakes are 16-inch ventilated discs with 2-pot floating calipers.

    Ok, 2-pot means two pistons applying pressure to the pad. What is a "floating" caliper?

    ..Mike

    ..Mike

  • rshollandrsholland Member Posts: 19,788
    Your welcome. Sorry, don't know the answers to your questions.

    Bob
  • bigfrank3bigfrank3 Member Posts: 426
    Let's see if I can help.

    One of the benefits of DOHC is that you can put the cams right over the valves, transmitting the cam's intentions directly. This is direct actuation. The Phase I motor is this way, with only a hydraulic lash adjuster between the cam lobe and valve stem.

    With SOHC you can't put the 1 cam directly over all the valves so you need some sort of rocker arm to transmit the intentions of the lobes out to the valves. You get more moving parts and friction this way, but most manufacturers, including Subaru, use roller rockers and keep mass small to minimize the friction. The Phase II motor is this way.

    A floating caliper means that the piston(s) only push on the inside of the rotor (single action), through the pad. The outside pad gets in the proper position to do work when the inside pad contacts the rotor, and because of the equal and opposite force rule, the rotor pushes back.

    As it pushes back the caliper moves on its mounting pins to "center" itself over the rotor. Since the outside pad is in a fixed position, attached to the outside of the caliper, it moves closer to the rotor as the caliper moves. This ultimately brings the outside pad into play, balancing the forces and stopping the motion of the caliper, allowing both pads to drag on the rotor. Of course this happens so rapidly that it almost seems like one motion, but it really isn't.

    In a properly functioning system the inside pad will always wear a bit faster than the outside because it always has to be called upon first to get things in motion... or not in motion since we are talking about braking. :)

    High performance, racing type calipers are dual action, squeezing the rotor from both sides, with the caliper in a fixed position. This is very direct because both pads come into play at the same time, not sequentially as with a single action floating caliper. When slightly slowing a vehicle with a single action floating caliper, the outside pad may never come into play.

    It's interesting how both questions were around direct/indirect actuation.

    HTH!

    Regards,
    Frank
  • subearusubearu Member Posts: 3,613
  • armac13armac13 Member Posts: 1,129
  • pattim3pattim3 Member Posts: 533
    Sorry - I missed your post. I have no idea why Subaru choose the path that they did, but I will pose the question for you.

    Patti
  • miksmimiksmi Member Posts: 1,246
    I was wondering if direct actuation valves and floating calipers were something special.. sounds like that's what most modern street autos use.

    Thanks for the taking the time to explain it to me.

    ..Mike

    ..Mike

  • barresa62barresa62 Member Posts: 1,379
    It's one of those (normally for me) niggling questions that only gets me "going" when someone asks me about it. :-)

    Stephen
  • locke2clocke2c Member Posts: 5,038
    Floating calipers are actually not often used. They tend to bind unless giving regular and extreme maintenance, and thus don't even often find there way on to many sportbikes let alone sportscars or passenger cars / trucks.

    -Colin
  • bigfrank3bigfrank3 Member Posts: 426
    I have to disagree. Floating calipers are cheaper and are used often. I can't remember the last time I personally have seen fixed calipers, except on my bikes.

    This includes Corvettes, Ford vans and trucks, Mazdas, Eclipses, Toyotas, my GLH, my Shadow turbo, my V6 Daytona, my wife's Neon, my wife's Stratus, my mean green V8 Dakota (still have), and our Foresters to name a bunch.

    Floating calipers _can_ be troublesome if the slide pins get pitted, bent, or extremely dry, but as I said they are cheaper and the manufacturers love them.

    I am still trying to think of the last time I saw fixed calipers, and frankly (what else?), I can't.

    Regards,
    Frank
  • jimmyp1jimmyp1 Member Posts: 640
    No wonder you know so much detail about cars, you own / have owned so many.....

    Jim
  • bigfrank3bigfrank3 Member Posts: 426
    I left off the early 2/3 of the list! Most of them had drum brakes. :)

    The last time I counted it was somewhere between 25 and 30 vehicles, just mine. My current wife adds about 8 to 10 since we have been together.

    A few on that list I didn't own, just worked on, which is also a long list.

    Regards,
    Frank
  • kenskens Member Posts: 5,869
    Frank, that's pretty amazing! So how does the Forester stack up against your long list of vehicles?

    Ken
  • bigfrank3bigfrank3 Member Posts: 426
    It's not so amazing, you just need to be around long enough, and like cars! :)

    First a disclaimer. Mine is unfortunately not a rich man's list. That coupled with my size always made it a challenge to satisfy my "habit". There are no Porches, or Lotuses, no Ferraris or Lambos. I was always a true motorhead. It didn't matter what was wrapped around the motor, it was just a "host", and I had to fit.

    I did a lot of drag racing and built a bunch of motors, but my knack was staying outside the engine and tweaking what the Engineer started. Mostly fuel, ignition, and exhaust stuff. I always wanted enough torque to change the rotation of the earth. :)

    I have a couple of interesting cars on the list, a 55 Chevy V8 convertible that I sold for $50 (worth more than $20K today!), a 65 Mustang convert. with the hi-po 289 V8. It had solid lifters and a very lumpy cam... wouldn't idle well below 1000 RPM. That baby was honking at 8000 RPM!

    Same core engine as the Shelby 350 except with a Ford intake and carb instead of the Shelby hi-rise and Holley, and performance cast iron exhaust manifolds instead of the headers. 271 HP vs 306. I loved the sound of that car, mechanical and visceral. Mine had headers and several different carbs were tried.

    My best handling car was the 85 GLH, just like it was on rails, but not great suspension travel. Stiff. This would have been a great AWD car, instead of the FWD.

    My 88 Shadow turbo was fun to play with and tinker. Very easy to get the power up. Good HP, not good torque, like most turbos. Response too soft for my taste.

    My 71 Peugeot was a pleasant surprise, long suspension travel and good handling, similar to the Forester. This was an old car with over 100 K miles when I bought it. It had a skip "no one" could find. I found it and doubled my money.

    My 71 Duster 340 was my prize, went 147 MPH with that car. Also made some money to support my "habit" through drag racing. This was my first new car.

    I had a Suzuki GS1000 bike that went from 0 to 60 in about 4 seconds. That will open your eyes and get the old heart pumping!

    I liked my 68 RoadRunner, taut and torquey.

    I had 2 76 Rabbits, not at the same time. I always liked the German feel and liked these cars very much. First FWD car.

    I _love_ my Dakota, 5.2l Magnum with a few mods. This truck is _fun_ to drive... unless it is raining or snowing. Sometimes I actually use it as a truck, but not very often. Love to kick 5.0l Mustang's [non-permissible content removed]... no, I haven't outgrown that yet!

    Sorry, you got me talking cars. I get dangerous. What was your question (I'll go look). Oh yeah.

    I am still very impressed with both of our Foresters. I would like more torque, I'll take the H6 please, but I am most impressed with the overall balance and the quality. The power and torque curves for the 2.5l engine are nicely designed, as is the gearing, I just ALWAYS want more power.

    The engineering is intriguing and keeps me interested. I like this vehicle!

    I like the default 50/50 split of my MT better than the 90/10 or 80/20 of my wife's automatic, whichever it is. My L feels more balanced overall than her S+ (black and gorgeous), but I like the stance of her bigger wheels and tires better. My L is quicker and faster, but sometimes I would rather not have the clutch. The H6 with an auto and a 45/55 split would be heaven.

    Both sets of brakes take some getting used to. I actually like the feel of my disk/drum better than her all disk. Her's feels even softer than mine. Of course, every time I drive my truck I almost stand it on its nose at the first stop!

    I am amazed at how many times strangers stop my wife or me to ask about the Forester. This has never happened to either of us, certainly not with this frequency. I always tell them that we have 2, bought at different times (random samples) and neither has any defects. Everything fits exactly right, no screws missing or misaligned, nothing rattles.

    I always tell them how competent the vehicle is. This is defiantly the best balanced vehicle I have owned. It is not the quickest, fastest, or best handler, but it _is_ the best balanced, and highest quality.

    Now that I have had AWD here in a New England winter, I am going to be even harder to please. I will stick with Subaru if GM doesn't screw it up... I hate GM.

    Now about that H6...

    Regards,
    Frank
  • armac13armac13 Member Posts: 1,129
    I haven't had as many cars as you (around 20-25) but I appreciate what you are saying. I think you have hit the Forester exactly with the term "balanced". I've had faster, quicker, better handling cars too but none as well balanced as Rufus. BTW I tested the L as well as my S and I found the S brakes to be much better in feel, much firmer and better modulated. Go figure.

    Ross
  • kenskens Member Posts: 5,869
    Frank,

    Wow, I think you just opened the floodgates! I enjoyed reading your post -- thanks for taking the time to reply. I can feel your enthusiasm for cars in your message. :-)

    Your endorsement of the Forester was especially interesting since you're coming from such a history of vehicles. I think you summed it all up with "balance".

    I'm wondering if the added weight of your wife's S+ moonroof has something to do with the difference in how it feels compared to your L.

    Given your experience under the hood, have you tried tinkering around with your Foresters? Any mods?

    Ken
  • bigfrank3bigfrank3 Member Posts: 426
    Ross

    When I spend significant time in her car I don't notice the brakes, it is only when I drive mine and hers in the same day. But, they are both very different from the "rest of the world", especially my truck, which has great brakes and great feel.

    Ken

    The weight could certainly play a role, but she also has a wider rear track and a bigger footprint with her wheels/tires. Coming out of a turn hers feels more like FWD, "pulling" while mine feels, well, more like AWD.

    I even downshift her automatic (yes, for those who have asked, you can do this) to keep the revs up, because I first thought it might be the response of the trans, seems to have a bit of latency compared to auto boxes I am used to. That was better, but hers still feels more like FWD... not like FWD, but directionally more like it compared to mine.

    mods - I wish there were more parts available because I would have some. I changed the computer (factory hi-po) on my truck and that made a world of difference. I wish Subaru offered one. I would like some more timing for throttle response. I would gladly pay for 93 octane for it.

    I have put in a K&N panel filter and played with different combinations of the "Snorkus" plumbing. I want more air but not hot air. I need to get some 2.5"- 3" ducting. Stay tuned.

    I have put in Mobil 1... I always use Mobil 1... at my 7K mile change, after oil and filter changes at 300/1300/4300/(7300). Definitely silkier.

    I use 89 octane fuel and have reset the ECU, plus I always try to "train" it to my way of thinking. Good exercise for it.

    I have played with tire pressures to "tune" things a bit.

    I have put on the weather shields ("visors") that lakepop found (thanks again!) and they have already paid dividends. We have had high 90 degree days lately, with dewpoints around 70 I might add (YUK!), and threat of thunder showers. I can now leave my windows open 1/4 inch or so, and not worry about the rain. They actually don't even look open which is also good. I have seen too many cars blow out their rear windows because of no venting.

    I have done some "pedestrian" things like change the front speakers, install filtration kit, and tailpipe cover. I want to get a 18mm rear bar but have received no response from 2 places.

    Maybe you know, since you have one. I know the part is for the Impreza, but what I don't know, is the part the same for all years? Is the bar for my '01 the _exact_ bar as yours or Juice's? The folks I have e-mailed won't answer the question. Liability of suggesting an Impreza part for a Forester, I guess. Probably afraid someone will wrap themselves around a tree.

    Regards,
    Frank
  • originalbitmanoriginalbitman Member Posts: 920
    Frank - What are the visors you mention?

    bit
  • kenskens Member Posts: 5,869
    Frank,


    Most of the Impreza part should work on the Forester. As far as I know, the 18mm Impreza sway bar should fit your '01 Forester. If you're in doubt check the following link and scroll down to sway bars -- they list one for the Forester, but I'm sure it's the same part.


    http://www.autocaresubaru.com/suspension.html


    The 18mm bar makes a noticeable difference. Very simple installation to boot.


    There are people who have purchased the JC Torque Chip II for the Impreza RSs and noted improvements. I'm sure the ECU on the Forester and Impreza are the same so that may be a possibility.


    Ken

  • pattim3pattim3 Member Posts: 533
    that's some list. Because I've worked for Subaru for 19 years, mine is too limited to even list!

    About the calipers - I have to go with you on this one. We rarely see trouble with ours.

    Thanks for the good read!

    Patti
  • bigfrank3bigfrank3 Member Posts: 426
    Ken - Thanks for the leads! It is nice to see the 18mm Subaru part with the Forester name next to it. No one else seems to do this.

    The nice thing about the factory computer I put on my truck is that it is "blessed" by them. I have heard some real horror stories about other-than-MOPAR-computers, or computer "add-ons" on the trucks. I will have to check this out.

    Bit - The "visors" are like the smoked plastic "VentShades" for cars with door frames, except since we don't have frames they need to go on the roof itself. They start at the bottom of the "A" pillar, behind the mirror, and go to the end of the rear door. This allows both windows to be protected with one piece. It sticks on about 5/8" above the black trim.

    Here is a link to a picture on the Subaru UK site. Subaru offers them but not in the USA. The ones lakepop found are not Subaru but look the same. Mike at Exeter Subaru in NH carries them.

    www.subaru.co.uk/cgi-bin/accessories.pl?brand=subaru&area=fe&county=E3610FC000

    Regards,
    Frank
  • miksmimiksmi Member Posts: 1,246
    Frank, any wind noise with the roof visors?

    ..Mike

    ..Mike

  • bigfrank3bigfrank3 Member Posts: 426
    I haven't noticed any, but I am still scoping things out. I am also interested in finding out if they have diminished the "L" mirror whistle by redirecting the airflow. I will know more as soon as it gets cool enough to open the window all the way and not use the ac.

    I am also waiting for a real downpour so I can go for a ride with the window open a bit and not have water pour into my lap, seat, and door electronic switches!

    Regards,
    Frank
  • kostamojen2kostamojen2 Member Posts: 284
    Ya, i just noticed my new (used) L has that whistle too... i heard something about putting some foam between the crack to fix it?
  • lark6lark6 Member Posts: 2,565
    kostamojen: I think Frank is talking about the Forester L, not the Impreza L. I don't know if there are differences in mirror sizes on the different trim levels of Impreza, but on the US spec Foresters the Ss have larger mirrors than the Ls.

    Ed
  • kostamojen2kostamojen2 Member Posts: 284
    My mirror still wistles :P Loudly too... I stuck some cut cloth in there today that I had from my new trunk carpet, i think its working.
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