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Comments
-Brian
I can see Pontiac and Buick going but not Cadillac and Chevrolet. GM will not consist of Subaru until it becomes a majority stakeholder (and I'm not going to entertain arguments that it already does, rebadged Opel Zafira to the contrary)so I'm leaving it out of the equation for now. I can't speak with authority but I imagine GM will maintain the Holden, Opel and Vauxhall badges to placate the Australian, German and British manufacturing concerns. Many people in the US have been calling for Chevy to import some Holden models as replacements for the Impala and Camaro as well as a reintro of the El Camino (in the form of the Holden Ute), so there may be value in that. The Opel/Vauxhall Speedster could be rebadged as a Saturn.
The heavy trucks could be manufactured under a GMC/Isuzu combine; since Scania was spun off, Saab can pull out of the auto business and stick to aircraft from whence it came. The luxury/near luxury segment can be then completely left to Cadillac.
So you have:
Autos - Chevrolet (Holden), Saturn (Opel/Vauxhall), Cadillac
Light Trucks - Chevrolet, Suzuki
Heavy Trucks - GMC/Isuzu
Aircraft - Saab
Rebadging - Holden, Opel, Vauxhall
Ed
Cadillac: Large luxury cars
Saab: small european luxo cars
GMC: SUVs and PUs and Minivans and Vans (with Isuzu 4wd system, and Isuzu diesel engines, and Isuzu designs, suzuki small ones, forester)
Chevy: Average run of the mill cars (Impala RWD, Malibu, Caprice, Cavilier, saturns)
Subaru: AWD Wagons, AWD Outbacks, AWD Sedans
Corvette or other name: Performance cars (WRX, Vette, F-body, etc.)
-mike
Bob
-mike
bit
If GM has only 20% of FHI, they may be the largest shareholder but they probably could be outvoted on everything by the others so their power is more apparent than real. IIRC Honda had an even bigger share of Rover and when Rover got purchased by BMW, Honda wasn't asked to bid by the UK govt and was unable to stop the deal!
Turbo Legacy
I was talking to an old college buddy who works for that F... car company. He thought the reason there was no turbo Legacy was emissions problems. Which got me thinking. The WRX is obviously compliant. Why not just drop the WRX engine in the Legacy if its a big deal to get the biturbo US legal.Maybe emissions problems is why its also not sold in the UK/Europe. Over there they are even talking about taxing cars by how much CO they make!
The WRX weighs 3200lbs, the Legacy H4 3400, the OB H6 3700 and the biturbo Legacy for NZ 3300. There should be adequate power for a Legacy with the WRX engine. Maybe not quite as fast as the WRX but better than the H4. Though the question arises why not the H6 but I believe the H6 engine will be heavier.
While I was ruminating over all this here's some power/torque figures I dug up out of old brochures and from present websites.
WRX 2.0l turbo 227hp; 217lbft/4000rpm
H6 3.0l 212hp; 212/4000rpm
H4 2.5l 165hp; 166/4000rpm
H4 2.2l turbo (old Touring Legacy) 160hp: 181/2800rpm
H4 2.0l biturbo 276/256hp; 252/235/5000rpm (lower figures for 4EAT)
H6 2.7 145hp/156lbs @ 4800rpm
-mike
Oldsmobile means "old man's car" and so the name just had to go. The Aurora was FWD and too heavy, so it didn't succeed like they thought it would.
GM has way too much overlap with its cloned cars. They fail to differentiate them. Pontiacs are just Chevys with overdone styling. No extra power, not even manual trannies or AWD. But the Grand Am is a fast seller, so they'd have to keep the name under another division, something like that.
GM is FHI's single largest stakeholder, but that does not make them a majority stakeholder (>50%). Still, 20% is enough to sway the board's vote most of the time.
It's like that with the World Bank. The USA is our biggest share holder, and with only 25% of the board vote they still have enough power to basically "appoint" our Bank President. So if you don't like World Bank policy, blame Bill Clinton for appointing his golfing buddy James Wolfenson. (not to mention, the protests will get far worse when Bush's pick takes over)
A single-turbo 2.0l Legacy would have too much turbo lag for US tastes. In the WRX it's tolerable because it's light and the 2.0l is at least adequate before the boost kicks in. Not so in the Legacy.
-juice
Ed
As much as GM does wrong, they do a few things right, too.
Not that I want Subaru to become a GM clone. Heaven forbid!
-juice
Ed
-mike
The A4 will offer one, but FWD only, so Subaru could one-up Audi is they had a CVT with AWD.
The BMW Mini is supposed to get one too. Imagine having an engine at its torque peak whenever towing or accelerating!
Another thought - they could have a default "economy" setting that would please the EPA, yet offer a "sport" setting for enthusiasts willing to pay more for fuel.
-juice
paisan: I wonder if there's some inherent problem with vehicles built outside the countires in which the company is headquartered. My Jetta was German built and, while I have bad memories of it, it was better screwed together than the Mexican versions and Westmoreland Rabbits. OTOH, among Studebaker buffs there's always been some speculation that Canadian (Hamilton, ON) built cars were better assembled than their South Bend built counterparts.
Ed
It'll be interesting to see if Subaru calls the BRAT a truck. I doubt it.
So my "default economy" mode tranny idea may work, if the EPA measures mpg in the default mode. Nice loophole.
Either that or 5 speed automatics (I'd like a 6 speed manual but let's fact it americans buy automatics). I wonder which would cost less to develop.
I'd also like to see Subaru explore options like direct injection and variable valve timing, and then bring them here!
I read in Automotive News that Carlos "le cost cutter" Ghosn has given the US arm of Nissan a priority over even the Japanese arm. Can you imagine that?
OK, Subaru, give that power to SoA, and then bring ALL the Blitzens and STi models to the US only for the next couple of years.
-juice
GM will be using FHI's AWD and CVT technology. IMHO, the only shared product will be the SUW coming out in a few years.
Dennis
http://auto.ascii24.com/auto24/e/2001/0822/e04npr_ki0822_01.html
Bob
Other than that, as far as I'm concerned, the rest of the GM lineup doesn't interest me in the least—including the Corvette.
Bob
The Corvette doesn't interest you? It's an outstanding car by any measure, but especially considering the performance you get for less than $40,000.
-Colin
Bob
Buick Outback
GMC Brat
Pontiac Impreza
etc
oh, it feels so good to wake up!
Bob
-- Buick will be dropped as soon as its clientele will start dying off in droves
--Pontiac -- may be dropped in the future, with its models going into Chevy line, as "sport-packages" or "Sport"-labeled Chevrolets
--GMC -- at some point will merge with Chevy trucks
--Cadillac -- GM will hang on it as long as it can, but again when clientele is gone, they may drop it as well
--Saturn will become Chevy
Foregn markets are very sensitive to "their" brand identities, so:
-- Opel/Vaxhaull/Holden will be maintained in foreign markets
-- Saab will maintain its Swedish identity
and so I hope for Subaru and Isuzu to stay as they are for a while...
My brother-in-law has owned several used Vettes, and I've driven two of them. You feel like you're sitting in a bathtub, with awful visibility.
I much prefer my Miata, never mind their price. Maybe the newer ones are better.
-juice
http://www.motortrend.com/future/2003.html
Yes, but bring on the WRX-based SVX coupe. That would be a great halo car for Subaru.
Remember, this is Motor Trend, guys. The ones that picked the Caprice as COTY. They also claimed the new Forester would arrive this year.
-juice
Bob
Bob
-juice
And yes, do try a 97+ Corvette before agreeing with Bob.
-Colin
Looks like Mitsu is going after Subaru head on with that ASX wagon
Bob
-mike
Ross
..Mike
First a little history
If you recall, when the Outback first appeared, it was referred to the "Legacy Outback." When the new Legacy appeared for MY2000, all reference to the word "Legacy" was dropped as far as Outback models were concerned. It's now simply called the "Outback."
Could be smart marketing
If Subaru really wants to "highlight" a new performance-based Legacy, giving it a name in and unto itself could be very smart marketing. It certainly has helped with the Outback, why not do the same for this model?
For the sake of argument, let's say they do this, and let's call the new model the "Turisimo."
Fast forward to MY2005
It's assumed there will be a new Legacy for MY2005. For the sake of this discussion, I'm going to refer to it as "Subaru Large Car Platform," or "SLCP," and not as a Legacy, or a Legacy-based, or Legacy-derived vehicle.
The SLCP would consist of three model series: Legacy, Turisimo, and Outback. These models would be marketed laterialy, meaning that no one model lineup would be considered "superior" to the others. Instead, they would be marketed at different audiences with similar economic and education demographics. Here's one scenario as to how this all might take place:
Legacy
Still aimed at mainstream customers who really are not "car buffs," but who appreciate and understand the advantages of AWD, and who want a family-sized vehicle.
Typical vehicles that might be cross-shopped:
Camry, Accord, Passat, Altima, Galant, Taurus, Malabu, Stratus, and on the high end; Lexus E300, and Infiniti J30
Legacy models
"L"
This would be pretty much as is, but with option of the 3.0 H-6 automatic.
"L Premium"
This would come with alloy wheels, moonroof, leather, auto climate control, premium audio, and both H-4 and H-6 would come with automatics. VDC standard.
Turisimo
Aimed at "car buffs," who appreciate and understand the advantages of AWD, and who want a family-sized vehicle, as well as a performace vehicle.
Typical vehicles that might be cross-shopped:
Passat 4-Motion, Audi A-4 Quattro, BMW 3-Series AWD; as well as some performace sedans in that price/size range that aren't AWD.
Turisimo models
"GT"
This would be an evolution of the current Legacy GT, but with either a twin-turbo, or a high-output version of the 3.0 H-6—or both. It would have a 5-speed manu-matic or a 6-speed manual. It would come with cloth seats and a moonroof. VDC standard.
"GT-LS"
Same as above, but with leather, auto climate control, and premium audio system.
Outback
Continue with current marketing, but consolidate into fewer models.
Typical vehicles that might be cross-shopped:
Volvo Cross Country, and other new "outdoorsy" competitors that will most likely enter the market, as well as other wagon brands.
Outback models
"Base"
This would be pretty much be the same, but with the addition of H-6 and manual as an option. Moonroof and leather optional.
The "Limited" model would be deleted.
The LL Bean and VDC would merge into one vehicle.
Bob
It's a typical Honda upgrade: Subtle, but a definite upgrade. Clearly a better vehicle than the outgoing model. It has a 160 HP 2.4L engine, with 162 pounds of torque. Sure wished the rear door opened to the traffic though.
Bob
http://www.canadianautoreview.com/honda_cr-v.htm
One suggestion would be to change the name "Turisimo". Plymouth had one on the 80's (like the Dodge 024). My wife had one, and while we liked it, it didn't have the quality or refinement of a Subaru. Sometimes the subconscious can influence sales.
Regards,
Frank
Bob
Bob
Ed
Bob
Thanks for the links. I'm not too thrilled about the new CR-V. While it is roomier and more powerful, I'm not sure if I like the new looks, the lack of a rear bumper and the fact that the tailgate still swings open to the wrong side.
It just seems more generic now. Also, it lost the front double wishbone suspension a la Civic.
Just seems like too little too late.
Ken
The Acura RSX also lost the the double-wishbone suspension, and all reports are that it's still an excellent handler. So I wouldn't necessarily write if off because of that.
I like the rear seat. It moves fore and aft, and has a fold-down center armrest. My guess is that it too has a reclining back rest.
Bob
-mike