Subaru Crew - Future Models II

ateixeira · January 2002

I think it's 1.17:1, so you're right.

Toronto: why not? First off, they will have many debuts, but call a certain one (probably NY) the "official debut". For example, I saw the 2000 Neon with my own eyes at the DC Auto Show before it was officially debuted at LA or Detroit (I forget which).

And Canada is a very strong market for Subaru. Enough so that they charge relatively higher prices in Canada vis-a-vis the competition.

Rubicon might hit $28k. Liberty does. I think it's a image builder, though. They mostly build it just to prove Jeeps are rugged. I bet production numbers are small.

The GX470 looks quite handsome. It's the best looking Lexus SUV IMO. It looks familiar, too, like perhaps a Land Rover model is based on it and I've seen it before in Belize, I'm not sure.

The Maserati coupe looks plain. The Alfa Spider, for example, is far more distinctive.

Porsche 4S: S for schweet! AWD, hello! The brakes alone are a work of art.

911T: quirky top, looks a bit odd. But I like moonroofs, and that's basically what this has (two big ones). Price causes nose bleeds, though.

Baja: looked at along with the other debuts, the cladding really does look a bit tacky. They should have used flares like I have on my Forester, and less cladding especially around the back, on the bed. Also, that's the first time I saw the gas cap, and it's dark. They should have done it in bright polished aluminum.

Aerio is cool. The sedan is a cuter Echo. The hatch is neat, I can even take the quirky looking hatch. Bob - take a look at the symmetrical dash layout, you can tell they built it for both markets. AWD option sounds cool, but only 141hp does not. But the AWD Matrix will only get 123hp. Neither can compete with the Outback Sport though.

-juice

kate5000 · January 2002

for Forester debut, that is. Otherwise, a lovely city.

subearu · January 2002

I'll be taking plenty of pictures (like last year). In fact, last year, it was sometimes hard to get decent photos with all of the people walking in front of you or surrounding the displays. we get there at open time, so that helps a bit, but the crowds pour in quickly.

I'm a bit anxious to see what the '03 Legacy brings.

-Brian

ateixeira · January 2002

Corolla: cute, inoffensive update. But Toyota will not change - even on the Sport model they nickel-and-dime you for ABS and alloys. On the Sport!

Nothing ground-breaking at all. 130hp, drum brakes, torsion beam suspension, it sounds like a 15 year old car, doesn't it?

I like the XC90. It's grown on me. It's the most stylish Volvo, except the rear is overdone. It looks short, even small, but that may be an illusion. 4 speed auto? In that price class? Are they nuts?

It does seat 7 though, and the built-in booster seats are the industry's best. Very nifty. It'll probably cost $40k or more once equipped, though, and I bet they can't sort the suspensions (the XC70 is awful).

-juice

lark6 · January 2002

The 87-91 Camry wagons are nice enough looking; I tried to find a used one in my price range in '96 but couldn't. It's the '92-96 wagons that are IMO homely.

I thought I was on target with the Giugiaro VW/Isuzu connection; thanks for confirming.

Ed

ateixeira · January 2002

Remember the Chrysler Citadel? It looked just like those ugly Camry wagons.

Looks like Chrysler will produce the Pacifica instead. It looks much, much better.

-juice

rsholland · January 2002

Mike: The customer who buys a Rubicon is most likely a true hard-core Jeeper. The reliability issue is something they could care less aboutor more likely, disagree with you entirely. Whether it's true or not, for those customersit's a non-issue. I agree with juice, I think it will be priced around $28K or so.

Toronto: Maybe I should re-phrase my question/statement: My main issue is more the timing of two new major auto introductions by Subaru (Legacy at Chicago & Forester in Toronto) occurring at almost the same time, in two different cities.

Bob

paisan · January 2002

I could go with that $28K + maybe some $ for a few options that DC will invariably have. (they aren't known for their all-inclusive packages)

-mike

ateixeira · January 2002

I have the same argument with my Jeep buddies almost every time we talk about cars. I say Jeeps are not reliable, but they are durable. By that I mean they'll last, but you'll have to fix things along the way. Perhaps often, but still.

My dad has a buddy in Taos, NM, with a circa 1950s Willys, and that thing is a monster. When temps get sub-zero, I mean really cold, it's the only vehicle he has that will start.

Two intros, two cities. I dunno. Baja came first because it's all new. I don't expect many changes at all for the 2003 Legacy. I bet some publications don't even have coverage on it.

But the Forester is a big deal, I just think they'll have the "official" debut at the NT Show. Folks like us will take a sneak peak, but most people won't see the cars in Toronto.

-juice

bblacha · January 2002

Maybe they planned it for NY originally, but then felt pressure from the CR-V and decided to give people a teaser?

Or maybe the Toronto auto show web site is wrong?

Interesting.

--Bart

ateixeira · January 2002

I know a lot of people are waiting to see the new Forester. Subaru had better impress.

-juice

armac13 · January 2002

it's because Forester's are doing so well in Canada. :-)

"Forester also played its part in December's success, with sales up 14.9 per cent for the month, due in large part to the popular new Forester Sport, available exclusively in Canada."

Ross

rsholland · January 2002

are so close to one another, I'm sure one will get short-changed by the other. My guess is that will be the Legacy that will get short-changed.

Another possibility is, if the the Forester does get the H-6, as has been recently rumored, possibly the Legacy will tootherefore having the effect of a "double-whammy" kind of publicity.

Bob

miksmi · January 2002

Scott Putnam's (dealer in Bloomington, Minnesota) site has a poll:

http://www.subaru.net/

Which engine would you prefer to see in a performance GT application, a 4 cylinder turbo, 6 cylinder normally aspirated powerplant or either one with more horsepower? Why? Does the engine configuration come first? or horsepower?

What are your thoughts?

..Mike

subearu · January 2002

the engine is getting produced here in Kenosha at the newly constructed engine plant. they basically added on to the existing 4.0 liter engine plant (which is getting phased out). I think this plant also produces some of the 2.7 liters also.

So, Kenosha is happy that the Pacifica is getting made!

-Brian

lark6 · January 2002

Brian: few "Kenosha Cadillacs" roaming the roads these days, eh? ;-)

Ed

subearu · January 2002

If you're referring to AMC, then, no, it's kind of the opposite still. Still see Spirits and Eagles around town, but they are becoming more scarse. Rarely see any Pacers anymore.

Jeeps are all over the place here. Lots of old AMC-era jeeps around too. My dad still has a '87 Cherokee.

-Brian

lark6 · January 2002

I often wonder if Eagle owners gravitated to Subies.

Ed

ateixeira · January 2002

Exactly, Bob. I don't think the Legacy would've received a lot of attention even if it had a lot changes. It's just not a press darling. Unless a new powertrain arrived, or something really big.

H6 or turbo? Answer is easy. Both.

The H6 mates well to an auto, just give us a 5 speed auto and offer it across the entire Outback range. The Outback competes with Explorers, at least in theory. It needs torque. Buyers usually get automatics.

The turbo could be for manuals only, and perhaps even Legacy GT only. Mate it to a 6 speed and offer us Blitzens and Avignons. These are the "in the know" buyers who are more likely to want manual trannies. Save money by only offering manuals for these special editions.

Seeing that B4 next to a Baja almost makes me cry. Why do we not get the more interesting models here?

-juice

subearu · January 2002

@ the Chicago show when we go. We're probably going on the 9th, which is opening weekend. Heck, if they only offered the manu-matic, I'd be happy. Not as happy as having a B4 (mmmm, blitzen), but happy none-the-less.

Wonder if Patti can point us in the right direction as to what MAY be offered in the '03 Legacy.

-Brian

ateixeira · January 2002

She's locked up in that dungeon for revealing to us that we had already guessed the name "Baja" on these threads.

SoA: if you are reading this please don't forget to feed her! ;-)

-juice

paisan · January 2002

The B4 is payback for the XT6. In all other markets except Japan and the NA market they never got the XT6 only the XT. Which meant they missed the bigger brakes, 5-lug nuts, and all the other goodies that the XT6 had. So now it's payback time because we don't get the B4 w/manumatic, etc.

Sorry guys.

-mike

ateixeira · January 2002

OK, but now it's our turn again.

-juice

subearu · January 2002

what about the WRX? we FINALLY got that over here, only after drooling over 'em for years.

-Brian

ateixeira · January 2002

I meant it's our turn to get something they do not get. Besides, they have the STi and we don't, so they're still one step ahead of us.

-juice

ateixeira · January 2002

Bob - did you get this week's issue? I can't put it down, it's great.

They said Autoweek will name the following the winners of the show:

Best in Show: Solistic. I didn't know it was RWD!

Best Concept: Cien.

Most Significant: Pacifica. This name keeps coming up, again and again, as I read. They are saying $25k with leather, AWD, 3.5l V6.

Most Fun: Tonka. I say Most Silly.

AN gave the Forty-Nine an "A+", their highest rated concept. The BMW 7 series got the lowest score, a "C-" and I agree, given the hunchback.

A couple of other surprises: the Jeep Compass was supposed to represent a $15k vehicle! I'm sure it'll cost $18-23k or so in the real world, but if it is $15k I'd be impressed.

Also, the 2 seat Razor was supposed to be a $14.5k concept. Again, doubtful, but that's what they claim.

-juice

subearu · January 2002

on the way home from work, I saw an eagle sedan with a spoiler. not a wing, but merely a spoiler on the trunk lid. probably adds 1 hp.

-Brian

lark6 · January 2002

Adds 1 hp but who knows how much downforce? ;-)

Ed

rsholland · January 2002

Haven't gotten it yet. In fact, I didn't get last weeks's issue. Hope my subscription didn't run out...

Bob

c_hunter · January 2002

You know what really cracks me up? Rear wings on FWD cars. Talk about dumb!

Craig

paisan · January 2002

on FWD cars help keep therear end on the ground, believe it or not, although even then don't do much below 100mph.

-mike

subearu · January 2002

yeah, those wings are an eyesore for most people. not sure what the driver is thinking putting one on. maybe it helps keep the glare down on those rear-view mirror neon lights.

as far as the spoilers go, some FWD cars just need them to complete the aesthetic look, IMO. For instance, I like the complete look better on a Saturn SL2 with the spoiler - it gives it a little more sportier look. An Acura TL looks 'classier' with OUT the spoiler. it's all personal preference really, since we know they really serve no benefit in the daily driving most people do.

the spoiler on our OB wagon - now that's a different story. I think the wagon looks naked without one.

-Brian

c_hunter · January 2002

If you do the math, it turns out that rear wings that are aft of the rear wheels will actually reduce downforce on the front end. They do add downforce to the rear, but it comes at the expense of the front downforce. Since that's the end where traction really matters on a FWD car, it's a bad thing. Fortunately, most wings are purely cosmetic, and don't do a whole lot at normal speeds. But, whenever I see a guy pass me at 100mph in a slammed Neon or Civic with a massive rear wing, I imediately take a mental snapshot and mark it "picture of an idiot in action".

RWD cars with rear wings are OK, as are FWD cars that use other means to generate downforce where it counts. The best device is the underbody diffuser tunnel, which creates uniform downforce and doesn't add a whole lot of drag.

Interesting thing about the spoiler on the Outback -- I figured it was mainly for looks, but it does channel some air over the back window which will reduce drag. I noticed this while driving in the rain. On my old Outback without a spoiler, there would just be disorganized turbulent flow back there. On the new car with the spoiler, I actually see streamline patterns on the glass. Cool.

Craig

subearu · January 2002

on the spoiler on the OB. although I haven't driven one w/o the spoiler, I do also notice that rain channels downward the glass on ours w/ the spoiler. So, in my mind I do believe it IS actually doing something (even if it helps keep my rear window clean!).

speaking of odd things, today I drove past a new Toyota pickup with a dual exhaust package. The exhaust note was a bit on the different side, compared to something like a GM 350 V8 or the like, but it could have just been the muffler package that this guy had.

-Brian

rsunico · January 2002

Has anyone been to the Toronto Auto Show? I can't make it to Detroit and I will be out of town for NY. Is it a large show compared w/ Chicago or NY or much smaller? Jetblue is offer $34 each way from JFK to Buffalo and thought I'd rent a car and drive on over.

ateixeira · January 2002

What's really funny is a spoiler on a spoiler. Like a Camaro owners that feels inclined to add a 2nd one on top of the built-in one.

A spoiler probably is useful on a wagon body style, since a square back gets dusty really fast. I don't like the way the one on the Forester looks, personally. It seems to stretch too far back. A more subtle one, and I'd get it.

-juice

cptplt · January 2002

I was looking at the Japan Subaru site (looking is the appropriate description as I can't read it!). Seems they are going back to DOHC engines and the 2.5 in AVCS form (also have a 2.0 AVCS), while peak power and torque is little changed, torque peaks at 2800rpm rather than 4000. They also offer the VTD system on both the 2.0 turbo and the 2.5 AVCS.
Seems they should offer a 2.5AVCS/VTD on the GT over here.
Also saw what I think was a pic of the Sportshift system, seems to be more like the Audi Tiptronic (on the gear shift lever itself, actually its a + or - shift in a gate adjacent to the regular gate which is a straight gate), didn't look like the steering wheel had paddles a la BMW/Ferrari.
All the manuals use the viscous AWD over there too.
There was a table which seemed to say you could get the VTD-VDC on the 2.0 T and 2.5 but couldn't confirm it on the detailed pages of each model but I didn't explore every clickable part of each page. Maybe someone who reads Japanese can check it out sometime.

paisan · January 2002

Don't think you can just jet-blue it up to Buffalo and hop the border. I hear the US border side is quite difficult (3hrs) to get back over.

-mike

hypov · January 2002

VTD is available on the 2.0T
and VTD-VDC is available on the 2.5l.
I didn't see this on Subaru Japan site, but I checked out the European sites and they have them available as standard in Norway, I think, and as an option by others.

-Dave

silface · January 2002

Hi! I'm a first timer to this forum! I find this forum very informative. Keep up the good work! In response to the #5186 message about the Toronto Auto show: It was mentioned before, the dates for public viewing are from February 15th to 24th. Media viewing days start February 13th. My guess Subaru will launch a new web site like they did when they released the Forester 2001 (www.forester2001.com). Next purchase vehicle for me would probably be the Forester. Family already owns an Impreza wagon. I will be attending the Toronto Auto show towards the end of the show... I will try to dig up information not already published during the media days on the New Forester. I hope they introduce the H6 in the Forester 2003. Actually, any improvements will be nice!

Sil

FrankMc · January 2002

and your mission - should you choose to accept it - will be to report all the new Forester info that you can ferrett out of anyone at all. Good luck with your assignment.

Frank

rsholland · January 2002

here's link to the Ford site. It has a lot of info and specs on the all-new '03 Expedition. Besides having a power folding third seat, they also offer heatedand cooledfront seats!

Bob

http://www.fordvehicles.com/index.asp?mode=false

paisan · January 2002

More FORD gadgetry to break! "Hunny, I can't bring the kids home cause the seats are stuck in the down position" Haaaaaaa! KISS for me baby! Wow great angles of approach and departure, ground clearance, etc. It's a very nice full sized station wagon IMHO

-mike

kate5000 · January 2002

barresa62 · January 2002

I know you two have had some horrendous experiences w/Fords but everytime someone mentions Ford, you two resort to jabs and jokes. They used to be funny (there were some good ones to be sure)but it's getting old...gotten old. Let's lighten up a bit on the Ford bashing, not because I'm a fan of Ford, but because it's gotten to the point of childishness. I know you both are much better than that. I mean to say you both are much more capable of posts that are thought provoking and entertaining. Heck, I'm not a fan of the other domestics either but I don't comment disparingly too much (?). Sorry if the tone seems patronizing. It's not meant to be and of course, it's just my lil' ole' opinion. :-)

Stephen

kate5000 · January 2002

who should lighten up, really...

barresa62 · January 2002

No need to be defensive. I'm just making an observation. I didn't think I was attacking anyone and I don't mean to discount your terrible experiences w/Fords. Please don't backlash at me. I thought you might be able to step back and see some validity in what I have been observing. If not, I would have never gone out on a perverbial limb and post what I did.

Sorry in Seattle,
Stephen

kate5000 · January 2002

I see validity in the threads on this Edmunds and other automotive site, referring to some, um, horrendous reliability issues with, um, certain domestic car-maker... Do you think all those poor souls make it up? Therefore, I believe there is some validity in expressing doubts whether such a carmaker can handle excessively complex gadgetry. I would not call it childish.

I also believe in sense of humor and freedom of speech :-)

bblacha · January 2002

Oh c'mon, it's not like they've filled two pages of discussion with F***-bashing... this is a fun group, a few jokes are OK.

Just my opinion,
--Bart

barresa62 · January 2002

I totally agree w/what you say. This is not what I'm commenting about. What I'm saying is that everytime (yes...everytime) someone mentions something about Ford (especially anything remotely postive...it's possible, really, LOL), you take the opportunity to dump on Ford. You're totally in your right but what I'm saying is that it's getting old...like a stuck record. I know (from reading you're nonFord posts) that you are capable of much more original, entertaining posts. Hey...I may just be overly sensitive to redundancy (although I'm guilty at times to be sure). I just want to be clear that I'm not advocating any involuntary censorship or anything. I'm not even commenting about the subject matter of this last Ford post. I'm commenting on the excessive Ford bashing. Oh...BTW, you have no problem w/being humorous, even in the Ford bashing posts. You have a talent w/the written word :-)

Anyhow...I'll just drop it since it's apparently rustling feathers that I didn't mean to.

Peace,
Stephen

Subaru Crew - Future Models II

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