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Subaru Crew - Future Models II

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  • c_hunterc_hunter Member Posts: 4,487
    is a better transmission. The H6 definitely has enough guts to power Outback sized vehicles around. Compare that engine+car combination to most wagons and small/mid-size SUVs, and it's right on target in terms of power and weight. The power is there if you can find it. The transmission is the problem. And it's not just a matter of adding more gears -- they need to make the logic work in favor of acceleration and power rather than economy. This is a classic example of an engine being smothered by a transmission.

    I don't see valve timing as a real need for the H6, since it performs just fine throughout the entire RPM range. I dipped into the throttle yesterday, and the H6 headed right for the redline with no apparent lack of high end power. Very quiet and smooth too -- didn't even hear it over the stereo.

    I think valve timing is usually a way to widen the power band of an engine, and it's best applied to multivalve fours which are typically anemic down low if properly tuned for the high end. Add valve timing, and you can tune the engine for low and high end breathing. This is less of an issue with larger displacement 6 or 8 cylinder engines which have more low-end guts to begin with. These engines can get an almost equal benefit by simply tuning the intake path or varying the exhaust backpressure (a la H6).

    Craig
  • locke2clocke2c Member Posts: 5,038
    Good point Craig, a 5 speed automatic or even better a 6 speed manual could make the current H6 quite effective.

    -Colin
  • paisanpaisan Member Posts: 21,181
    Well that is just a dream car! :) In reality they do need a bigger car, because there are a lot of people who are current owners who need/want a bigger car and would love nothing more than to buy a subaru, but since there is nothing bigger than a legacy are forced to look elsewhere. Hyundai I'm sure has held onto a lot of their customers by offering the XG300/350 because their core mareket was econoboxes before, but they had the vision and realized as their owners move up the economic ladder they want a bigger car.

    -mike
  • paisanpaisan Member Posts: 21,181
    the 3.0 could use a bit more 0mph. Maybe bring back the 3.3H6 that put out 230hp in an updated form surely could put out easily 280hp in NA form.

    -mike
  • subearusubearu Member Posts: 3,613
    would the h6 benefit from that variable valve timing thing (AVCS?)

    what other things could they tweak on the current h4 & h6 to squeeze more mpg, hp, AND torque?

    (other than adding a 6 speed manual or 5 speed AT) ;)

    -Brian
  • bblachabblacha Member Posts: 160
    The 3.3H6 engine, what were some of the problems with it? (Other than it was installed in a poorly marketed but excellent car.) Something must have needed significant improvement if Subaru expended the effort to develop a replacement.

    I seem to remember it was too big to fit in the Legacy, or something?

    --Bart
  • jimmyj1945jimmyj1945 Member Posts: 141
    I think you folks are right on! I am currently not a Subaru owner, but intend to be one. Actually I was thinking about replacing my vehicles with two Subarus. My wife's truck with the forester-but-my concerns have been: is it large enough and does it have enough power? My car (Infiniti-I-30) that has 227HP, with an AWD vehicle-but-my concern (for Subaru) is does any Subaru have enough power? After the car show, I will test drive a few, but you get my point. You (Subaru Owners) have been discussing the need for more power, be it turbo, VVT, larger displacement etc., and as a prospective buyer, I hope Subaru is listening to you. Just MY opinion.

    Jim
  • paisanpaisan Member Posts: 21,181
    No problems with the engines, just the tranny couldn't handle the 230hp and overheated easily. And the wheel bearing problems (over torqued at factory and overtorqued by dealers on replacements)

    -mike
  • lark6lark6 Member Posts: 2,565
    So I gather, then, that if Subaru offered a Toyota Avalon-sized car they'd fill the bill?

    Ed
  • jimmyp1jimmyp1 Member Posts: 640
    more like a lexus ls430, but at avalon prices.

    jim
  • paisanpaisan Member Posts: 21,181
    LS430 size would be prefferable, but an Avalon is more realistic.

    I's say see how an Avalon sized one worked out and then move up from there.

    -mike
  • rshollandrsholland Member Posts: 19,788
    and is already on sale over there! Still auto-only, but Subaru did confirm that a 5-speed automatic is in the works! YES!! The new Legacy's engine is retuned for better low-end performance. YES!!! It also gets VDT with a 45/55 front to rear power split. YES!!!!

    And... the Euro-Impreza shown at the Toyko Auto show goes into production too. YES!!!!!

    http://www.apexjapan.com/

    http://www.subaru.co.jp/legacy6/index.htm

    Anybody think the Legacy 6 may be shown in Chicago in a couple of weeks?

    Bob
  • paisanpaisan Member Posts: 21,181
    Lets hope we get the 6! :) Hey we finally agree!

    :)

    -mike
  • cptpltcptplt Member Posts: 1,075
    Interesting that the Japan 3.0 H6 is AVCS, AFAIK the present US one is not.
  • rshollandrsholland Member Posts: 19,788
    AVCS makes its way over here on ALL engines.

    Bob
  • rshollandrsholland Member Posts: 19,788
    I think the prospects of also getting a Forester 6 look much brighter too.

    Bob
  • cptpltcptplt Member Posts: 1,075
    look at all the choices they get in Japan!

    http://www.subaru.co.jp/legacy/g/index.htm
  • tristessatristessa Member Posts: 10
    I must in the minority to feel that it is a disturbing trend that cars are getting bigger with each generation. I'm not against full-sized sedans. There should be some LS430s and A8s on the road. But it bugs me that you have to turn a Civic into an Accord in order to sell it for the years to come. Look at the new Camry. It's a boat. And domestics are even bigger. And don't get me started on SUVs.

    Why is bigger always perceived to be better? Are we so stupid to think that we get more bang for the buck because the new Civic is bigger than the last? Why can't they just make them better performers, safer, smarter, more fuel efficient, rather than bigger? Do we really need to haul that much stuff? Do all middle-class suburban families have 3 kids, each weighing in at 6'3" 220lbs? Are we having more kids per family? Why don't they make parking stalls longer, so I don't get my bumpers dinged?

    I like my cars just big enough to be practical but compact enough to whip around one-way streets.
    Transform my Legacy into a B4, and I'd be a happy boy. Turn the next one into a Camry, and I'd be looking for a WRX. But then again, that's not necessarily a bad thing......

    It's all Home Depot's fault....
  • fibber2fibber2 Member Posts: 3,786
    Miss a day and alot goes by. Let's see:

    My college car ('75 - '79) was a '72 Mercury Montego MX Brougham
    My first new car was a '79 Ford Fiesta
    My daily ride from '82 thru '93 was a Ford F-150 truck
    My wife currently drives her 2000 Ford Windstar SE

    And along the way we have bought/leased numerous other new vehicles including a Datsun 810 (Maxima), a few Toyota's, a Dodge Grand Caravan, and the '02 OBW. And the Honda Odyssey should arrive pretty soon.

    Is Ford perfect? Hardly... But have any of them been? Each has had it's joys and pains. As you may gather from my previous posts, I am not a member of the 'great unwashed' when it comes to topics automotive. I have a full complement of pneumatic and hand tools, and know how to use them. And yes, when it comes to the Ford's, I have had to use them a bit more often. As a friend of mine so aptly puts it, all cars s__k. So what else is new?

    I actually like Ford engineering, but sometimes the execution leaves me a bit disappointed. They get it right, but it does seem to take a little more time than their Japanese counterparts. Still, I would not consider myself a fool for returning to the brand when the vehicle fits my needs and desires. Nor would I spend my time trying to scare off others. Despite their troubles over the past year, I still view Ford as the best of the domestic marks. Personally, I have no desire to own a GM car, and fear for Subaru's future if THEY take control of the product development. But again, that is just an opinion.....

    If you remember, I commented in mid-December about the civility and respect shown on this forum. Lets all try and restore that.

    Steve
  • subearusubearu Member Posts: 3,613
    Shoot - I'm not going to make the opening weekend of the Chicago show. :(

    Instead, I'll be going the 16th. By then, whatever debuts there will be 'old' news. I'd speculate a bit and say that I'd be a bit bummed that the Blitzen wouldn't make it here, but I'm sure I'd get over it. ;)

    Nonetheless, I'll be sure to get pictures of the 'new' Legacy when we go to the show.

    -Brian
  • hypovhypov Member Posts: 3,068
    rsholland Jan 22, 2002 7:53pm

    I remember Patti mentioning 'bout State side not getting the B4 or GT-B, and remembering her also saying that we would get something (similar). Maybe, the SOJ site starting to shed light on what Patti hinted.

    -Dave
  • amishraamishra Member Posts: 367
    Have any of you taken a look at the new Matrix? AWD and 180 HP for about the price of an impreza! The 4 cylinder is even less...

    I'd be willing to bet the Matrix with the Toyota namebrand, reliability, and large dealer network is going to be a huge hit, much to the detriment of other AWD manufacturers.

    Looks like Subaru's niche market is starting to get some really good competition.
  • ateixeiraateixeira Member Posts: 72,587
    Ash: sorry to disappoint, but I have, and the AWD version only gets a miserly 123hp. That makes the Impreza TS wagon look like a rocket. And they are all 4 cylinders. The 180hp engine is the 4-banger from the Celica, but it'll come in FWD only. The base FWD gets 130hp, but AWD loses 7hp but gains an indy rear suspension.

    They'll be a hit, but the AWD model will represent a tiny fraction of sales. It actually costs more than the 180hp model does by $200 or so. My guess is people will prefer the engine for less money over AWD.

    I agree, Dave. The Legacy 6 means we can basically forget the B4 Blitzen.

    The name is funny - B4 RS30 for the sedan, B4 GT30 for the wagon. Shouldn't it be B6? I guess there is name recognition in the B4 label in Japan.

    AVCS is needed for more precise emissions controls in the future, is my guess. That we get a little more power or torque is a bonus.

    Porsche had influence on that Impreza, why not stretch that partnership to the US? Maybe people wouldn't balk at a Subaru with a sticker price over $30k if the name "Porsche" were involved, no?

    Anyone else notice in that page a link to photos that had a 6 speed Prova model? Is that a tuner, or is that transmission a Subaru unit?

    Another detail: the Legacy 6 models appear to have 17" wheels, both sedan and wagon.

    Home Depot syndrome, LOL! It's true, but I think Honda will eventually slot a new car beneath the Civic. Small cars aren't profitable, so they get moved upscale where they can bring in profits.

    The I35 now makes 255hp. Same for the Maxima. The Altima gets 240hp. The next Accord is rumored to get 225hp, while the Mazda 6 will get 219hp. So 212hp is no longer a big deal, really.

    So, all this is good news. Offer a Legacy 6 with the upcoming 5 speed auto, 17" rims, and AVCS on the H6. Maybe show a Prova tuned model with a 6 speed, I don't care if it's a limited edition, just do it.

    -juice
  • qbrozenqbrozen Member Posts: 33,732
    180 hp IS a 4-cylinder. Guess you mean the detuned 4-cylinder is less. In any case, the problem with that 180 hp is that its found at very high rpms and is not accompanied by any real torque. The 165 hp Subaru is going to feel much faster (in my opinion since there are no real specs to compare yet) because it is found at a lower rpm and with much more torque.

    damn. no wonder i was having trouble posting this, Juice got in ahead of me. Yeah, I got a mailer about the Vibe and it did say the GT (180 hp) does not come with AWD. So there ya go.

    '11 GMC Sierra 1500; '98 Alfa 156 2.0TS; '08 Maser QP; '67 Coronet R/T; '13 Fiat 500c; '20 S90 T6; '22 MB Sprinter 2500 4x4 diesel; '97 Suzuki R Wagon; '96 Opel Astra; '11 Mini Cooper S

  • ateixeiraateixeira Member Posts: 72,587
    The base Matrix gets 130hp/125lb-ft. The XRS gets 180hp/130lb-ft, so torque isn't exactly plentiful. It also reaches that peak torque at 6800 rpm, vs. 4200 rpm for the base engine.

    For most people, the base engine is actually better. But AWD restricts the exhaust, so it makes even less power and torque.

    -juice
  • FrankMcFrankMc Member Posts: 228
    Many people will only look at the HP number, and not realise that the off the line power is really the torque number. However, more choices are always better than less choices.

    Frank
  • paisanpaisan Member Posts: 21,181
    I've auto-xed against a lot of celicas, and I can verify that they are not torque monsters. The AT XT6 can usually beat em on the auto-x even with street tires on my car. After the first 2 races I wasn't scared of em anymore.

    -mike
  • ateixeiraateixeira Member Posts: 72,587
    Here's the catch: prospective buyers will go on a test drive, and it'll feel slow, especially if they cannot go beyond 4000rpm (pre-break-in). At those revs and lower, they might be tempted to buy the base model.

    But there are enough buyers that know about the engine that will buy it anyway.

    I think it puts pressure on the Imprezas, but mostly because it's a small wagon alternative, not because of the AWD option.

    -juice
  • paisanpaisan Member Posts: 21,181
    As frank said people will look at the stats rather than the actual car. Similar to the Pathfinder HP #s (the peak HP on the Pathy is found in an RPM range that the AT tranny never allows the engine to reach) The high HP #s are great for advertising specs and billboards, torque however is what gives you the kick in the seat of your pants feel.

    -mike
  • ateixeiraateixeira Member Posts: 72,587
    The engine will produce good 0-60 numbers in the car mags, though, because the editors will be driving it like they stole it. That'll help the Matrix.

    -juice
  • miksmimiksmi Member Posts: 1,246
    Thanks for the pros/cons of turbo/NA. ..Mike

    ..Mike

  • ateixeiraateixeira Member Posts: 72,587
    Thought this was interesting. Per Edmunds, they get more hits for the Impreza (ranked 21st) than they do for the Outback (38th).

    Forester isn't even in the top 50. But that might change after February 6, when it debuts in Chicago.

    -juice
  • subearusubearu Member Posts: 3,613
    I'll look at both the Legacy & the Forester when I go to the Chicago show. Geez, I might need to get another memory stick for the photos I'll be taking.

    -Brian
  • bluesubiebluesubie Member Posts: 3,497
    Here's an i-club post with a diagram about

    AVCS:
    http://www.i-club.com/forums/showthread.php?threadid=134854&referrerid=767

    -Dennis
  • ateixeiraateixeira Member Posts: 72,587
    The bottom line is right here:

    "increase engine power and torque output while at the same time gaining improvements in fuel consumption, exhaust emissions and idling stability"

    Sign us up!

    -juice
  • ateixeiraateixeira Member Posts: 72,587
    Brian: please take as many photos as possible. Ask about AVCS, 5 speed autos, 6 speed manuals, engine choices to come, etc.

    Try to snap the rear seat and cargo area on the interior of the Forester.

    Two weeks now, I can't wait.

    -juice
  • paisanpaisan Member Posts: 21,181
    You and I know that 95% of the people at a car show there showing the cars would look at you like you had 6 heads if you asked about AVCS, 5-speed-auto, or 6 speed engine. Their usual answer is "we'll take your info and send you more info" :)

    -mike
  • rshollandrsholland Member Posts: 19,788
    it would be a real downer if, two weeks from now, at the Chicago Auto Show, that no new H-6s arrive, in either the Legacy or Forester...

    Bob
  • paisanpaisan Member Posts: 21,181
    Yep, but you know what it wouldn't be the first time this has happened to us :(

    -mike
  • ateixeiraateixeira Member Posts: 72,587
    You mean Omar hasn't been trained since last year? ;-)

    I hope at least the Legacy has the H6. The powertrain already exists, at least show us one.

    They may save the Forester upgrade engine for later.

    -juice
  • subearusubearu Member Posts: 3,613
    ...but I won't hold my breath for any mind-breaking answers. Last year, the only ones in the sube area were 2 women whom appeared to be just candy for the eyes. IMHO, They clearly were NOT Subaru employees (would they wear glitterly dresses?). It was around lunch time when we made it over to Subaru, so perhaps we missed the reps.

    I'll snap pictures of whatever I can get a view of. It was hard to get pics of the interior of the WRX last year, since everyone was crawling around in it, let alone the wall of people 2-3 deep around it. The yellow one roped off was ignored by everyone, so that's the one I got pics of.

    My camera (Sony Cybershot S50) has the rotatable lcd panel. I've gotten a lot more familiar with it since last year (only had it a month at that time). I can use that advantage to get pictures that I might not be able to see clearly.

    I hope they'll have a Baja to look at, not just on a turntable either. I'm hoping to get some pics of the switchback for everyone to see up close.

    Well, at least the new-er Legacy is supposed to debut at the Chicago show. But, that alone doesn't guarantee a new engine. Only we can hope! All together now - AVCS, AVCS, AVCS....

    -Brian
  • locke2clocke2c Member Posts: 5,038
    Good post Dennis.

    AVCS is simple cam phasing, and it's only on the intake valve thus far in subaru implementations.

    Bob-- you'll get your wish in due time I'm sure thanks to ever escalating HP standards and emissions requirements. You can get cold start emissions way down, even with a turbo, if you use cam phasing.

    -Colin
  • kenskens Member Posts: 5,869
    Cool, I just finished browsing through SOJ's site on the Legacy 6. All the info isn't there yet, but it looks like the 4EAT is the only choice of tranny coupled with VTD.


    They mentioned the H6 being AVCS:


    http://www.subaru.co.jp/legacy/n/n4/engin/index.htm


    Ken

  • breldbreld Member Posts: 6,918
    So, is it possible, or even likely, that we will never see a manual transmission with the H6? That would be disappointing. And a tiptronic type transmission would be a smart move for most buyers, but still does not replace a true manual.

    I imagine this may have been brought up before, but could Subaru put the WRX engine into a Legacy, obviously mated with a manual?

    2024 Audi Q8 e-tron - 2017 911 C4S - 2025 BRZ - 2023 A6 Allroad - 2024 Genesis GV60 - 2019 Cayman

  • rshollandrsholland Member Posts: 19,788
    but it's probably a year away. Maybe for '04. and when it does come, I bet it will be a 6-speed, not a 5-speed.

    Bob
  • bluesubiebluesubie Member Posts: 3,497
    So the H6 AVCS puts out a little over 220 h.p. ?
    Ken, do you see the mpg's?
    What about hp/mpg on the AVCS 2.5's?

    -Dennis
  • ateixeiraateixeira Member Posts: 72,587
    The Legacy won't get the WRX engine IMO. Even in Japan, the turbos in the Legacy are twin-turbos, different than what the WRX gets.

    But since the H6 was fitted to the Legacy line, that'll likely be what US buyers end up getting.

    -juice
  • miksmimiksmi Member Posts: 1,246
    Bob, You think H6 with 6MT or H4 turbo w/6MT? An article you read, repeated rumors, or gut feeling? Oh, and thanks for the links over the last serveral days (weeks?) :-)

    ..Mike

    ..Mike

  • rshollandrsholland Member Posts: 19,788
    my guess is with the H-6, but it's just a guess.

    Why? To further distinguish it from the WRX, and to give it more of up-market cache.

    Bob
  • ateixeiraateixeira Member Posts: 72,587
    If they went through the trouble of putting the H6 in the Japanese Legacy, I seriously doubt they'll offer us a turbo on our Legacy. At this point I'd guess there is a 90% chance that the Legacy will get the H6 and not a turbo.

    4 speed auto for the first MY2003. Then let's hope we get 5EAT/6MT options.

    -juice
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