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Subaru Crew - Future Models II

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Comments

  • rshollandrsholland Member Posts: 19,788
    on the SOJ site, there are pictures of the wagon interior? Besides having a split-reclining rear seat, it also has a built-in, split retractable cargo guard/net. That's a great idea IMO.

    I hope we see it over here.

    Bob
  • rshollandrsholland Member Posts: 19,788
    a while back, SOA/SOJ said no H-6s for the Legacy? They said it didn't give the "handling" they thought the Legacy GT needed.

    Well perhaps they've re-thought that position. Perhaps some market pressure?

    Bob
  • rshollandrsholland Member Posts: 19,788
    the Type-Euro Impreza Sport wagon. Porsche did a great job smoothing out the rough edges of the current Impreza's styling.

    Bob

    http://www.subaru-sti.co.jp/typeEURO/top.htm
  • paisanpaisan Member Posts: 21,181
    Also don't forget in the JDM market subarus get other cool features we've never gotten (GPS, retractable mirrors etc) It would be real nice to see the H6 w/5sp AT or manumatic, it would be a contendor for my next new car.

    -mike
  • texsubarutexsubaru Member Posts: 242
    On the bigger not necessarily being better issue, I think there might be a market for a bigger, Legacy-based Forester (with an H6, as an option at least, and VDC) as an upscale model, and for the smaller current Impreza-based Forester (with a turbo H4 as an option) as the cheaper and sportier model. A "Forester Sport" and a "Forester Outback" (aka "Grand Forester"), if you will. The same sort of thing that Toyota has succesfully done with the RAV4 to 4Runner/Highlander portion of its ever-widening spectrum of SUVs. The only big trick would be the pricing (would have to keep the "Forester Sport" very affordable to maintain an adequate price differential between it and the bigger model without dangerously overpricing the "Forester Outback"). And, as a rather small manufacturer, I don't know if Subaru really has the production capacity to do both. But I think it'd be a pretty good idea.
  • texsubarutexsubaru Member Posts: 242
    Finally saw an Isuzu Axiom in person for the first time last weekend. I believe the reviews have been fairly good, but I can't say that I was too taken with its styling. Looked to me essentially like a minivan with a slightly bizarre truck grill on it.
  • paisanpaisan Member Posts: 21,181
    Execpt the Axiom is no mini-van. If anything it's like the old wagons of yesteryear. I equate it with a big old caprice/custome cruiser/Crownvic. It's frame based, lower than an SUV, has 230hp, tows 4500lbs, and handles pretty close to a car, also has AWD. I could do without the front bumper though.

    -mike
  • subaru_teamsubaru_team Member Posts: 1,676
    and forwarded. IMHO - I think we are making good strides towards the major components folks like you want. We are not a company that jumps on changes quickly. It's just the way it is. I've learned to accept it, but I do understand your frustrations. I think the new Forester will be very pleasing even though I have no "official" information to share.

    Edmunds - I just love participating here. The level of respect for each other and each others opinions is something that I marvel at on a daily basis. Let's keep it that way?

    On a final note: I really believe that the Phila. Eagles have the same power capacity of a WRX 5-speed. As a comparison, they are easily underestimated until you put the hammer down and "fly". ;-}

    Patti
  • miksmimiksmi Member Posts: 1,246
    Now that's a comparison we can understand!

    ..Mike

    PS - Do you ever sleep? ;-)

    ..Mike

  • subaru_teamsubaru_team Member Posts: 1,676
    I'm good with about 3 or 4 hours of sleep. It has always seemed to be a bit of a waste of time to my. My husband says my "type A" personality doesn't even quit at night. Actually, it's because it is the only quiet time I have!!

    Patti
  • ateixeiraateixeira Member Posts: 72,587
    Sounds like SoA has to lobby a little harder to get more of the good stuff over here, and perhaps they already are.

    I do recall the argument about the H6 in the GT, though. The customer is always right, though, and I imagine they asked for it in focus groups.

    By the time paisan is in the market for a new car again, I bet that H6/5EAT combo is available.

    OK, keep talking before they lock you in that dungeon again, Patti! Major components, like a 5 speed auto maybe? The H6 in more models? And a "pleasing" Forester sounds intriguing, given you know exactly what we want.

    IMO the WRX wagon overlaps a bit too much with the current Forester. If I were shopping today for me, and wanted a sports wagon, that WRX wagon would be hard to beat. So that allows the Forester to get a little bigger, I think. Not too big, it still has to be the best handling small SUV, but just enough to broaden its appeal. That way the wife would be happy in one, because it would appeal to a different customer than the WRX wagon buyer.

    Eagles? Well, I have a soft spot for underdogs, why not? They're getting no respect in the points spread.

    -juice
  • bluesubiebluesubie Member Posts: 3,497
    For your forwarding of our ideas!

    -Dennis
  • rshollandrsholland Member Posts: 19,788
    Thanks Patti! :))

    Bob
  • FrankMcFrankMc Member Posts: 228
    If she thinks we are likely to be pleased, I'm sure we will. It might be a matter of making sure our expectations are realistic. I'm looking forward to the launch in under 2 weeks...
    However, if we have had a Baja, Forester, Legacy launch this year, Impreza last year... will 2003 be a dull year? Will Juice go into Hibernation?

    Frank
  • ateixeiraateixeira Member Posts: 72,587
    zzzzz - huh? What?

    ;-)

    -juice
  • rshollandrsholland Member Posts: 19,788
    what we want. After all, we've been hammering her with basically the same wants and desires now for several years. ;)

    So, if she thinks we'll be happy, I'll trust her judgment. Reading between the lines, when she says she has nothing "official" to say, I take that as meaning she knows a fair amount about the vehicle, maybe she has even seen it, but is fearful of being put back in the SOA dungeon, if she speaks too freely.

    Having said that, and after seeing the Baja, I'm going to hold off on getting too excited beforehand.

    Bob
  • lark6lark6 Member Posts: 2,565
    It took juice's Rioma-to-Avanti comparison to awaken me from mine.

    All this talk of a "pleasing" new Forester and more powerful, non-Outback Legacy wagon has me optimistic that there will be something for me in the Subaru lineup once it comes time to replace my Forester.

    Ed
  • ateixeiraateixeira Member Posts: 72,587
    Bob: you mean I'll get a 280hp Blitzen for free after all? ;-)

    Patti: if you hear of any leaks, please let us know where those are, so we can investigate. For official purposes only, of course!

    Rioma looks more like the Reatta. I must have been having a bad day.

    -juice
  • rshollandrsholland Member Posts: 19,788
    more VTD-equipped Subies in the future? The new Japanese Legacy 6 has VTD, but not VDC, just like our auto-equipped WRX. These models also get a normal 45/55 front/rear power distribution.

    I wonder if, in the future, all automatic Subies get this? Which brings up another question: Can VTD also work with a manual transmission? So far Subaru has not offered this combo.

    Bob
  • locke2clocke2c Member Posts: 5,038
    Bob,

    although Subaru has never described it that way, it was pointed out previously that the VTD's planetary gearset centre differential is actually quite similar to the driver-adjustable centre diff used in STi version WRXs. Those are 35/65 by default and can go to 50/50 locked.

    so in my opinion, yes VTD can work with a manual. but I'm sure it's more expensive than a viscous coupler, which has been doing the job fine. it would be nice to get that 35/65 default torque split though. ;)

    -Colin
  • ateixeiraateixeira Member Posts: 72,587
    IMO VTD sans VDC is so much cheaper that yes, I think we'll see it by itself in a few models. AH is a big fan of the system and a regular of the WRX boards.

    It would make sense for Subaru to use the best AWD system for all models, and VTD is probably it. Seems to me like they could save money by replacing 3 different systems with just one on the assembly line. That might offset the extra cost of the VTD vs. VC.

    Enough acronyms for you? TTFN.

    -juice
  • paisanpaisan Member Posts: 21,181
    I think they are just using the same 5-speed tranny's they've been using for years, and since it isn't broke, they aren't fixing it and thats why they are sticking with the center viscous diffy. Eventually they may swap over to an upgraded MT with the VTD system, but that may only find itself into the "sporty" cars like the WRX. I think we are more likely to see a 5-speed manumatic become the only tranny option before we see an MT mated with VTD.

    -mike
  • kenskens Member Posts: 5,869
    Patti: Yes, thanks for listening to us! I think you've heard it all: 5EAT w/sport shift, more H6s, 6-speed manuals...bring it on!

    juice: I agree with you about the overlap. I'd probably would have picked up a WRX if I were shopping for compact sport wagon today. Back in '98 there was only the Forester.

    VTD: Yes, it would be nice to see this in more applications. Right now, Subaru is keeping it for just their high-end & sport models. I'm sure once manufacturing and support costs for VTD are better known we'll see more of them.

    Ken
  • subaru_teamsubaru_team Member Posts: 1,676
    It's more of a gut feeling. I have not seen the new Forester nor has there been ANY leaks. That is what's making me think it's going to be special. Subaru has been working on the vehicle and getting lot's of feedback (hats off to you folks!!). I have never seen this level of security about a new product (at least since the XT). More information was floated with the Baja (including warnings about sharing it). I might be wrong, but the fact that there are no vehicles to be found here at all, written notices advising us not to try to dig anywhere, tells me that they expect people to be surprised. There is a lot of excitement around here, so.....I think it will be "pleasing".

    Now, quick question - -- a Legacy based Forester has been requested for a long time. Considering the size of our company, don't you think that we would end up competing with the Outback? It's something that I've thought, but, I'd love to know your thoughts.

    Patti! (Note: no dungeon threats yet today!!)
  • paisanpaisan Member Posts: 21,181
    IMHO it all depends on how SOA markets a legacy based Forester. If they market it as an SUV going after the mid-small sized SUVs like the Highlander, X-terra, Axiom, Rendevous, etc. then it shouldn't cut into Outback sales, but if they market it more on it's car prowness, and handling, then it will. They need to aim it more trucky than the Outback. IMHO. Also give it more towing capability!

    -mike
  • kate5000kate5000 Member Posts: 1,271
    If Legacy-based Grand Forester looks and behaves truckish enough, than it should not damage Outback sales too bad. It would also help to differentiate between the two if Outback could get some sporty-car upgrades, like turbo, big rims, extra large disc brakes, etc.

    OTOH, if the Grand Forester is nothing more than an Outback with a bit more headroom, than I'd expect it to compete with OB head-to-head.
  • FrankMcFrankMc Member Posts: 228
    As Paisan says, you are going to leave the mini-ute RAV4, CRV etc and start going against the Highlanders, etc. I think it would compete with the Outback, (I think it does now however). I mean, I have read many posts that say something like, I looked at the Outback and Forester and decided to go with ..... If the net result would be that more people go into a Subaru showroom to look this would be positive (and if they buy a Subaru it really shouldn't matter too much which one they buy). However, I would argue that if you could only have the Forester in either the Impreza sized or Outback sized you will most likely be better off leaving it Impreza sized, since it doesn't compete with the Impreza as much.

    Also just to put in my .02 edgewise of all the SUV people I know 1 person actually tows something the others could care less about towing capability.

    Frank
  • rshollandrsholland Member Posts: 19,788
    Long answer...

    As Mike said, it depends on how it's marketed.

    The biggest challenge I see for the new Forester is that there is so much new competition in this market segment. When the Forester was first introduced it didn't have the Escape, Tribute, Santa Fe, etc. to compete with. Now it does, in addition to recent excellent updates of the CRV and Rav4. And... all of these new cute-utes have one big advantage over the current Forester—and that is room.; rear seat room specifically.

    In addition many of them offer V6 power and are priced quite reasonably.

    Subaru has indicated that the "brand" is moving towards a "sporty" image, which I think is correct. I say the Forester should also be the "sportiest" of this cute-ute segment.

    By that I mean it should be sporty on-road and off-road. Maybe there should be two different sporty models: one aimed a a "pavement scorcher," and the other a "burm-buster."

    Nobody currently in the cute-ute market offers a vehicle that is super off-road. The Freelander is good, but it would be much better if it offered a low range. The Liberty, while positioned to take cute-ute sales, is still very much a truck. Same with the Xterra.

    To keep the Forester from overlapping the Outback, it needs to offer more traditional "SUV attributes," such as (a true) low range, better towing, better angle of approach, etc. Position the Outback pretty much as it is, but for those who want "more" in terms of capability, the Forester should offer the solution to those needs.

    Right now the Forester and Impreza are almost identical in size, yet few people cross-shop them. I think the same would be true for a Outback-sized Forester—if there was enough "real" differences to separate them.

    Bob
  • FrankMcFrankMc Member Posts: 228
    However, I'm starting to think the "rugged" SUV fad may have peaked, the Porche SUV comes to mind. (what next a Ferrari SUV?) The latest thing seems to be the sportswagons, (except don't call them wagons). I think Subaru is very late in the game if it wants a trucklike SUV. I can see a market for a Legacy based Grand Forester alongside the regular Forester and have a line extension.. and maybe emphasise the Legacys as more sporting autos.

    Frank
  • rshollandrsholland Member Posts: 19,788
    These things (fads) come and go. Yes, right now everybody is moving to make them all as car-like as possible. Well what happens when they're ALL car-like? That means there is "now" a new market for something that is a bit LESS car-like.

    It's just a matter of timing the market...

    Bob
  • subearusubearu Member Posts: 3,613
    either car-like or truck-like? what else is there? if you want a truck....

    -Brian
  • miksmimiksmi Member Posts: 1,246
    The latest thing seems to be the sportswagons, (except don't call them wagons).

    LOL I've noticed that trend myself. Wagon = bad, hatchback = bad, sportswagon = good. I love marketspeak.

    ..Mike

    ..Mike

  • rshollandrsholland Member Posts: 19,788
    I don't ever want to see the Forester to abandon its car-roots. But there is room to offer a more off-road slant to the current picture.

    The new Volvo XC90 is a great example of what I'm talking about—although it too lacks a low range.

    BTW, the new Porsche Cayanne WILL have a low range, from what I've read. I'm also curious about the new VW variant. I bet it too will have a low range.

    Bob
  • rshollandrsholland Member Posts: 19,788
    if everybody (including Buick) is making car-like SUVs, I don't think Subaru needs to compete head-to-head with them. They need to offer something with a different slant.

    Bob
  • subearusubearu Member Posts: 3,613
    while they are wagons, they're car based to me (IMO). I think they sell well since there was a lack of wagons (yeah, there were a few) in the last 15 years. Remember the big station wagons that your parents drove?

    Wagons really are more pratical for a lot of people. Not a gas guzzler Ford Excursion, but not a Geo Metro (how's that for extremes!). And it's not a van or mini-van. For some (myself), I just can't accept the fact that a mini-van is my only choice for carrying my family around.

    Just give me a B4 'sportwagon' and I'll shutup! ;)

    -Brian
  • subearusubearu Member Posts: 3,613
    was supposed to be different - a no frills, basic 4wd appliance. Didn't I see that it hasn't sold as well as they planned?

    -Brian
  • odd1odd1 Member Posts: 227
    Patti- My answer is yes and no. Yes it may take some sales from Outback, but if you don't build it how are you going to take sales from Highlander, etc. Many of us love the Forester but need more space. Take juice and I, both our wives say NO WAGON that makes it hard to stay sube loyal with the present offerings. The Forester is great for one or no kids, the size becomes impractical with two or more kids, in car seats, and all modern day accessaries. What is the demographic of sports cute buyers?(my guess is late 20's early 30's with a couple of dogs maybe one child) Where do they go from Forester when it no longer meets their needs if they don't want a wagon and need more space than a sedan and want Sube? If my experience (and demographic guess is correct) you get one maybe two sales to the average sports cute buyer before it no longer fits their needs. If you convert them to brand loyal you need more than just a wagon to move them up to. How many people already cross shop Forester and Outback? I did.

    How much sales would it take from Outback in sube loyalist country--snow country? I don't know. If they are still buying Sube does it matter?

    Additionally, how many people would such an offering bring to a Subaru lot for the first time?
  • rshollandrsholland Member Posts: 19,788
    I haven't seen any sales figures, but I would think it has got to be considered a huge sales success. I see them everywhere. This was/is a real turn-around vehicle for Nissan.

    Bob
  • big_guybig_guy Member Posts: 372
    I'm not a regular poster on the Subaru boards but I am a big fan of Subaru. I seriously looked at the Forester a couple years ago when I needed to replace my old '93 Suzuki Sidekick. I wanted to replace an "SUV" with an "SUV" and the Forester was the most appealing at the time. However, rear seat room put it out of consideration. Now with the head to head market being shared with the Tribute, Sante Fe, Freelander, and Vue (as well as the CRV and Rav4), an increase in interior space would be a step in the right direction for Subaru. I love the space provided for the driver . . . lots of head and leg room. But the rear seat legroom is pretty poor in the Forester. To better compete with the likes of the Tribute, Sante Fe, et. al., a substantial increase in rear seat leg room is due for the Forester.

    I don't think that building a Forester on a Legacy platform will be enough. The rear seat legroom in the Outback isn't much better than the Forester (less than an inch if the stats here at Edmunds are correct). If a "Grand Forester" is to be built on the Legacy platform, it will need a good stretch to increase that rear seat legroom (a minimum of 36" legroom is what I would like to see). This should be accomplished without reducing the track run of the drivers seat.

    If Subaru was to make the Forester big enough it could steal sales away from the Outback but as has already been mentioned here, the Outback and Forester are already cross-shoped against one another as it is . . . and usually to the Outbacks benefit. I think building a larger Forester would be a good thing for Subaru even if it does have an impact on Outback sales. The "cute-ute" segment has been hot lately and the Forester has lost ground to the likes of Hyundai, Mazda/Ford, and Honda because the "Home-Depot" generation wants more interior room in their vehicle.

    Just my $.02

    Edit: In addition, Subaru could trump the new competition by offering a Legacy based Grand Forester with the H6 and a 5-speed manual tranny . . . the top selling V6 equipped competition (Tribute, Escape, Sante Fe) only come with automatic transmissions.
  • rshollandrsholland Member Posts: 19,788
    Look what happened when Honda up-sized the Odyssey: The sales flew off the chart. They probably sell ten times the amount of new Odysseys now, because it's larger, and fits the needs of the customers much better.

    Bob
  • ateixeiraateixeira Member Posts: 72,587
    Would a Legacy-based Forester compete with the Outback? Well, my wife would not buy an Outback, but she would buy a bigger Forester. So in her case, no.

    But does the Outback "compete" with mid-size SUVs? IMHO, no. I do see it as an alternative, a middle road if you will, but not as a direct competitor. The SUV niche is left to the Forester, which could compete sort of inbetween the compacts and mid-sizers.

    What can distinguish the Forester? Having 7.5" of clearance vs. 7.9" for the H6 Outbacks is certainly not the way to do that. If the H6 gives the Forester an extra 0.6" like it for for the OB, we'd be at 8.1".

    A longer wheelbase and smartly shaped bumpers would address approach/departure angles. OK, few people use this, but image is everything, so it has to be capable even if those capabilities are rarely explored.

    Mind you, these are minor changes. We're not talking Trooper sized. Leave that to the 2005 SUW. And in press releases, they've been careful to call it a Sport Utility Wagon, not SUV, so again that leaves the SUV niche to the Forester alone.

    -juice
  • locke2clocke2c Member Posts: 5,038
    I think the Forester needs to be a bit bigger, more truckish (MORE LOAD/TOWING CAPACITY!) but still decidely carlike in road manners. It needs the H6 powertrain *and* an improved four cylinder.

    That last sentence also applies to the whole Legacy and Outback line IMO, and a manual tranny should be available for at least the Legacy sedans with the H6.

    -Colin
  • rshollandrsholland Member Posts: 19,788
    The Escape and Tribute are actually SHORTER than the current Forester—yet they're both much roomier inside.

    The Escape and Tribute have a longer wheelbase of 103". They have less front over hang, which mean the cabin moves forward somewhat.

    So, even if the Forester remains the same overall length, thee are ways to make it roomier inside.

    Bob
  • ateixeiraateixeira Member Posts: 72,587
    XTerra has been mildly successful, but I think Forester actually outsells it. Nissan must make big profits from each unit, though, because it is so back-to-basics. It's a profitable pickup based SUV that cost them nothing to make. That's despite the Pathfinder being around for just a tiny bit more cash.

    odd1: thank you for putting it so succintly. Wife says no wagon, so give us an SUV. Styling is key, not the car vs. truck idea.

    Forester is a bit small, so address that issue. It's the most common complaint by far. I bet that for 70% of people that do not buy a Forester, size is the main reason.

    If legroom is still short, at least raise the rear seat a bit, for theatre seating. This may be hard with the flat folding seats matching up with the cargo floor, of course.

    -juice
  • lark6lark6 Member Posts: 2,565
    Patti: odd1 is on point - the Forester might be too small for a family of four, or a family of three once the child gets past a certain size; genetics play a part in that. I don't have kids but I expect that I will in the next 2-3 years, so maybe I am in no position to argue. When I think of the vehicles my parents used to haul me around in ('62 Catalina HD, '67 Mustang, '68 GTO, numerous pickup trucks), then I think of these families with 1 child who think they need a full-sized SUV or minivan, I have to wonder "why does a modern child need so much more STUFF hauled around with them?" It sort of ties into my statement last week about being able to afford an Audi, Volvo or BMW but choosing to buy a Subaru instead.

    The issue here seems to be one of perception and image. You have people who say "no wagon," yet the wagon suits their needs better than a "traditional SUV" (whatever that means anymore - I still think large and truck-based). You have people who say "no minivan" who need the minivan human and cargo capacity, yet do not need the four-wheels-driven, off-road/soft-road capabilities of a "traditional SUV." These people have negative connotations associated with wagons and minivans - that somehow by owning one they are sending some message that, I don't know, maybe their decisions are more motiviated by spouse and children than by their personal wants?

    By giving the Legacy wagon SUV styling cues and additional ground clearance and calling it "Outback," your company struck a chord with a significant group of buyers. For those who didn't need that size you created the Impreza Outback/Outback Sport. For those who didn't need the size but carried square objects and/or wanted more butch styling cues you created the Forester. Now everybody and their brother has jumped your train. Maybe there needs to be a more butch Legacy Outback?
    A longer one with a third row of seats? I'm not sure I can answer your question. The Avalon-sized car, in sedan or wagon, may be your best bet. If you try to become all things to all people you may end up satisying very few of them.

    Ed
  • ateixeiraateixeira Member Posts: 72,587
    It could be an inch or two taller, with the seats all mounted a little taller, too. SUV buyers love that high perch.

    A longer wheelbase would make it less maneuverable, but increase space. I like the idea of taking the Outback's rear suspension even more than a wheelbase stretch, because it's like getting something for nothing.

    Now, a new Forester like that would not be a car I'd buy for me, but like I said, I'd buy a WRX wagon. The wife would buy that Forester, though. So Subaru would earn both sales.

    -juice
  • paisanpaisan Member Posts: 21,181
    I think back to my family's big old Oldsmobiles and Caddys and completely understand the mini-van/suv craze. Cause there are no more full-size cars on the market (sans the grand marquee). The national geographic ad for the '74 olds 98 shows a guy packing the trunk with a full sized spare, 15hp outboard motor and a full set of golf clubs! :) Also for me, I take last night as an example, I loaded up 6 of us in my Trooper and headed into brooklyn for dinner. If I had a forester, It would have been 2, possibly 3 cars of people instead of one.

    -mike
  • tincup47tincup47 Member Posts: 1,508
    Any Subaru will be limited in increasing the approach angles due to the Engine-transmission configuration. Any meaningful change will involve going away from what is their hallmark, longitudinally mounted boxer engine in front of the Transmission. This puts the front of the engine well ahead of the centerline of the front wheels, which necessitates a longer front overhang. But it shouldn't be necessary since over 95% of the projected market will never run into a problem with this. There are several very competent Off-road vehicles that are finding their market share shrinking due to people finding out they want a more car like vehicle.
  • rshollandrsholland Member Posts: 19,788
    they should just change the name to the Subaru Butch, and really come out of the closet. ;)

    Bob (putting on flame-proof suit)
  • rshollandrsholland Member Posts: 19,788
    the Jeep Grand Cherokee is one of them. You're absolutely right about the engine configuration. That's always been a problem for Subaru, in terms of off-roading potential.

    Bob
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