Did you recently take on (or consider) a loan of 84 months or longer on a car purchase?
A reporter would like to speak with you about your experience; please reach out to PR@Edmunds.com by 7/22 for details.
A reporter would like to speak with you about your experience; please reach out to PR@Edmunds.com by 7/22 for details.
Options
Comments
I hope we see it over here.
Bob
Well perhaps they've re-thought that position. Perhaps some market pressure?
Bob
Bob
http://www.subaru-sti.co.jp/typeEURO/top.htm
-mike
-mike
Edmunds - I just love participating here. The level of respect for each other and each others opinions is something that I marvel at on a daily basis. Let's keep it that way?
On a final note: I really believe that the Phila. Eagles have the same power capacity of a WRX 5-speed. As a comparison, they are easily underestimated until you put the hammer down and "fly". ;-}
Patti
..Mike
PS - Do you ever sleep? ;-)
..Mike
Patti
I do recall the argument about the H6 in the GT, though. The customer is always right, though, and I imagine they asked for it in focus groups.
By the time paisan is in the market for a new car again, I bet that H6/5EAT combo is available.
OK, keep talking before they lock you in that dungeon again, Patti! Major components, like a 5 speed auto maybe? The H6 in more models? And a "pleasing" Forester sounds intriguing, given you know exactly what we want.
IMO the WRX wagon overlaps a bit too much with the current Forester. If I were shopping today for me, and wanted a sports wagon, that WRX wagon would be hard to beat. So that allows the Forester to get a little bigger, I think. Not too big, it still has to be the best handling small SUV, but just enough to broaden its appeal. That way the wife would be happy in one, because it would appeal to a different customer than the WRX wagon buyer.
Eagles? Well, I have a soft spot for underdogs, why not? They're getting no respect in the points spread.
-juice
-Dennis
Bob
However, if we have had a Baja, Forester, Legacy launch this year, Impreza last year... will 2003 be a dull year? Will Juice go into Hibernation?
Frank
;-)
-juice
So, if she thinks we'll be happy, I'll trust her judgment. Reading between the lines, when she says she has nothing "official" to say, I take that as meaning she knows a fair amount about the vehicle, maybe she has even seen it, but is fearful of being put back in the SOA dungeon, if she speaks too freely.
Having said that, and after seeing the Baja, I'm going to hold off on getting too excited beforehand.
Bob
All this talk of a "pleasing" new Forester and more powerful, non-Outback Legacy wagon has me optimistic that there will be something for me in the Subaru lineup once it comes time to replace my Forester.
Ed
Patti: if you hear of any leaks, please let us know where those are, so we can investigate. For official purposes only, of course!
Rioma looks more like the Reatta. I must have been having a bad day.
-juice
I wonder if, in the future, all automatic Subies get this? Which brings up another question: Can VTD also work with a manual transmission? So far Subaru has not offered this combo.
Bob
although Subaru has never described it that way, it was pointed out previously that the VTD's planetary gearset centre differential is actually quite similar to the driver-adjustable centre diff used in STi version WRXs. Those are 35/65 by default and can go to 50/50 locked.
so in my opinion, yes VTD can work with a manual. but I'm sure it's more expensive than a viscous coupler, which has been doing the job fine. it would be nice to get that 35/65 default torque split though.
-Colin
It would make sense for Subaru to use the best AWD system for all models, and VTD is probably it. Seems to me like they could save money by replacing 3 different systems with just one on the assembly line. That might offset the extra cost of the VTD vs. VC.
Enough acronyms for you? TTFN.
-juice
-mike
juice: I agree with you about the overlap. I'd probably would have picked up a WRX if I were shopping for compact sport wagon today. Back in '98 there was only the Forester.
VTD: Yes, it would be nice to see this in more applications. Right now, Subaru is keeping it for just their high-end & sport models. I'm sure once manufacturing and support costs for VTD are better known we'll see more of them.
Ken
Now, quick question - -- a Legacy based Forester has been requested for a long time. Considering the size of our company, don't you think that we would end up competing with the Outback? It's something that I've thought, but, I'd love to know your thoughts.
Patti! (Note: no dungeon threats yet today!!)
-mike
OTOH, if the Grand Forester is nothing more than an Outback with a bit more headroom, than I'd expect it to compete with OB head-to-head.
Also just to put in my .02 edgewise of all the SUV people I know 1 person actually tows something the others could care less about towing capability.
Frank
As Mike said, it depends on how it's marketed.
The biggest challenge I see for the new Forester is that there is so much new competition in this market segment. When the Forester was first introduced it didn't have the Escape, Tribute, Santa Fe, etc. to compete with. Now it does, in addition to recent excellent updates of the CRV and Rav4. And... all of these new cute-utes have one big advantage over the current Forester—and that is room.; rear seat room specifically.
In addition many of them offer V6 power and are priced quite reasonably.
Subaru has indicated that the "brand" is moving towards a "sporty" image, which I think is correct. I say the Forester should also be the "sportiest" of this cute-ute segment.
By that I mean it should be sporty on-road and off-road. Maybe there should be two different sporty models: one aimed a a "pavement scorcher," and the other a "burm-buster."
Nobody currently in the cute-ute market offers a vehicle that is super off-road. The Freelander is good, but it would be much better if it offered a low range. The Liberty, while positioned to take cute-ute sales, is still very much a truck. Same with the Xterra.
To keep the Forester from overlapping the Outback, it needs to offer more traditional "SUV attributes," such as (a true) low range, better towing, better angle of approach, etc. Position the Outback pretty much as it is, but for those who want "more" in terms of capability, the Forester should offer the solution to those needs.
Right now the Forester and Impreza are almost identical in size, yet few people cross-shop them. I think the same would be true for a Outback-sized Forester—if there was enough "real" differences to separate them.
Bob
Frank
It's just a matter of timing the market...
Bob
-Brian
LOL I've noticed that trend myself. Wagon = bad, hatchback = bad, sportswagon = good. I love marketspeak.
..Mike
..Mike
The new Volvo XC90 is a great example of what I'm talking about—although it too lacks a low range.
BTW, the new Porsche Cayanne WILL have a low range, from what I've read. I'm also curious about the new VW variant. I bet it too will have a low range.
Bob
Bob
Wagons really are more pratical for a lot of people. Not a gas guzzler Ford Excursion, but not a Geo Metro (how's that for extremes!). And it's not a van or mini-van. For some (myself), I just can't accept the fact that a mini-van is my only choice for carrying my family around.
Just give me a B4 'sportwagon' and I'll shutup!
-Brian
-Brian
How much sales would it take from Outback in sube loyalist country--snow country? I don't know. If they are still buying Sube does it matter?
Additionally, how many people would such an offering bring to a Subaru lot for the first time?
Bob
I don't think that building a Forester on a Legacy platform will be enough. The rear seat legroom in the Outback isn't much better than the Forester (less than an inch if the stats here at Edmunds are correct). If a "Grand Forester" is to be built on the Legacy platform, it will need a good stretch to increase that rear seat legroom (a minimum of 36" legroom is what I would like to see). This should be accomplished without reducing the track run of the drivers seat.
If Subaru was to make the Forester big enough it could steal sales away from the Outback but as has already been mentioned here, the Outback and Forester are already cross-shoped against one another as it is . . . and usually to the Outbacks benefit. I think building a larger Forester would be a good thing for Subaru even if it does have an impact on Outback sales. The "cute-ute" segment has been hot lately and the Forester has lost ground to the likes of Hyundai, Mazda/Ford, and Honda because the "Home-Depot" generation wants more interior room in their vehicle.
Just my $.02
Edit: In addition, Subaru could trump the new competition by offering a Legacy based Grand Forester with the H6 and a 5-speed manual tranny . . . the top selling V6 equipped competition (Tribute, Escape, Sante Fe) only come with automatic transmissions.
Bob
But does the Outback "compete" with mid-size SUVs? IMHO, no. I do see it as an alternative, a middle road if you will, but not as a direct competitor. The SUV niche is left to the Forester, which could compete sort of inbetween the compacts and mid-sizers.
What can distinguish the Forester? Having 7.5" of clearance vs. 7.9" for the H6 Outbacks is certainly not the way to do that. If the H6 gives the Forester an extra 0.6" like it for for the OB, we'd be at 8.1".
A longer wheelbase and smartly shaped bumpers would address approach/departure angles. OK, few people use this, but image is everything, so it has to be capable even if those capabilities are rarely explored.
Mind you, these are minor changes. We're not talking Trooper sized. Leave that to the 2005 SUW. And in press releases, they've been careful to call it a Sport Utility Wagon, not SUV, so again that leaves the SUV niche to the Forester alone.
-juice
That last sentence also applies to the whole Legacy and Outback line IMO, and a manual tranny should be available for at least the Legacy sedans with the H6.
-Colin
The Escape and Tribute have a longer wheelbase of 103". They have less front over hang, which mean the cabin moves forward somewhat.
So, even if the Forester remains the same overall length, thee are ways to make it roomier inside.
Bob
odd1: thank you for putting it so succintly. Wife says no wagon, so give us an SUV. Styling is key, not the car vs. truck idea.
Forester is a bit small, so address that issue. It's the most common complaint by far. I bet that for 70% of people that do not buy a Forester, size is the main reason.
If legroom is still short, at least raise the rear seat a bit, for theatre seating. This may be hard with the flat folding seats matching up with the cargo floor, of course.
-juice
The issue here seems to be one of perception and image. You have people who say "no wagon," yet the wagon suits their needs better than a "traditional SUV" (whatever that means anymore - I still think large and truck-based). You have people who say "no minivan" who need the minivan human and cargo capacity, yet do not need the four-wheels-driven, off-road/soft-road capabilities of a "traditional SUV." These people have negative connotations associated with wagons and minivans - that somehow by owning one they are sending some message that, I don't know, maybe their decisions are more motiviated by spouse and children than by their personal wants?
By giving the Legacy wagon SUV styling cues and additional ground clearance and calling it "Outback," your company struck a chord with a significant group of buyers. For those who didn't need that size you created the Impreza Outback/Outback Sport. For those who didn't need the size but carried square objects and/or wanted more butch styling cues you created the Forester. Now everybody and their brother has jumped your train. Maybe there needs to be a more butch Legacy Outback?
A longer one with a third row of seats? I'm not sure I can answer your question. The Avalon-sized car, in sedan or wagon, may be your best bet. If you try to become all things to all people you may end up satisying very few of them.
Ed
A longer wheelbase would make it less maneuverable, but increase space. I like the idea of taking the Outback's rear suspension even more than a wheelbase stretch, because it's like getting something for nothing.
Now, a new Forester like that would not be a car I'd buy for me, but like I said, I'd buy a WRX wagon. The wife would buy that Forester, though. So Subaru would earn both sales.
-juice
-mike
Bob (putting on flame-proof suit)
Bob