Subaru Crew - Future Models II

FrankMc · January 2002

I mean lets face it, a mini-ute is a boxy small vehicle, and a wagon is a boxy sedan.. The difference is the styling and there may be people that love one and hate the other, there are also people like me that like them both and make the decision based on other factors.

Also Ken I really disagree about getting rid of the "L" series. You need an everyday value offering. Subaru has already gotten rid of the striped Brighton versions they need a value vehicle or people will get turned off. The Legacy's start at 19,800 MSRP (including shipping) for an L while the GT's are at 23,400. A ton of people won't even shop Subaru if they know this. "$23,400 for a Subaru, heck Toyota sells the Camry for $19,500 I'll go there". Even if they eventually buy one of the other models I think you need to give them a reason to shop your brand. (plus I like the features of the "L". I don't want a moonroof since I don't want to lose the headroom, and I have to buy an "L" to make sure I don't get one.

Frank

rsholland · January 2002

is needed for all Subaru lines, IMO.

Bob

goldencouple1 · January 2002

I think that the perception of being high priced might be hurting Subaru. You can get a RAV4 for 18 Grand...supposedly. But that's with nothing on it. In pricing for our purchase of the Forester, the Forester began with the appearance of being higher priced than competing models, but when we looked at competing vehicles all dressed up like we wanted, the Forester was lower priced. Forester comes standard with things we thought were essential (ABS & AWD, AC, cargo cover, crossbars on the rack), while the competitors only offer these as options bundled with stuff we did not want -- Toyota is the worst on that, and Ford w/ the toy engine they offer at the low end of the Escape.

Subaru should get it across up front that they offer the essential features you want and need for a reasonable price, while the competitors(Toyota & Ford, let's say) tout the low prices of a stripped model hardly anyone will buy anyway.

tincup47 · January 2002

Subaru dropped the Brighton because it didn't sell enough to justify it being continued. Subaru's sales have grown as they added models with more content, like the Outback Limited's and as they've added content to their base models. Entry level vehicles are typically low profit and low sales, not something small companies can support. If they are at capacity (which the domestic's wished they were at) diverting capacity to lower profit models would not be good business.

kens · January 2002

My guess is that we won't see the H6 debut with the new Forester. Instead, I think it'll be an option that comes out later. I do believe that Subaru will offer the H6 as an option in the OB Limited, however.

I'm not questioning the fact that Subaru needs a value-line. My little CEO exercise back there was based on a what-if scenario of adding a Legacy-based Forester and keeping the Legacy as the flagship model. In this case, the current "L" line would probably overlap quite a bit in features and price of a Grand Forester. Given that Subaru sells relatively few "L" series today, I just didn't see the logic of keeping two models in the value-line.

The other alternative would be to position the Grand Forester so that it doesn't compete with the "L" series. But given that the Legacy line spans so wide now (VDC through L) it makes it a little more difficult.

Ken

bsvoller · January 2002

Patti - I own an '01 Forester S+, which we use regularly to tow our pop-top camper into the Rockies from the Denver area.

Have you looked at the curb weight and GVWR on pop-top campers lately ? You can't find a quality camper from a major make that doesn't run near 2000# empty and well over 2000# loaded that can also sleep a small family. In fact, we had to buy used in order to stay within the weight limits of the Forester. A few years ago, light-weight, high sleep-capacity (6-8 people) campers were common. Nowadays, all camper manufacturers assume you're using a big truck to travel. Big trucks don't ride so well on those 3000 mile family excursions through the mountain west...

Other towing uses that we are considering are right in line with your primary target segment: ski-doos, snowmobiles, a catamaran, in addition to the more utilitarian uses mentioned by other posters.

I might add that the question of trailer brakes for us in the mountains is a no-brainer. I wouldn't risk overheating the tow vehicles brakes on one of our 15 mile long 5-6% grades around here.

We're actually pleasantly surprised with the Forester's performance towing, even at moderate altitudes (up to 9000'). It'll pull our camper straight up at 45 mph in third gear all day long. I did fit the OEM engine oil cooler to our engine, as we have the MT and it didn't come standard. We've had no issues at all with crosswinds either (very gusty at times around here).

In summary, I'm convinced Subaru needs a class II capable vehicle in your line-up. I'm disappointed that the Baja lost that ability between the show car and production.

Sorry for long post, hope this helps...

bblacha · January 2002

This might be old news, but the Forester is confirmed to debut in Chicago Feb 6th. Also, they want to increase the number of exclusive Subaru dealers to 40% of total dealer body up from 28%.

http://www.autoweek.com/

--Bart

goldencouple1 · January 2002

I have no statistics on this of course, but my sense is that there are a fair number of L's sold in New Mexico. A car capable of getting you over and out of muddy and/or snowy roads, and through some sand and pea-gravel is pretty nice here. Old Suburus abound. And as you go north, you see more and more Foresters, Legacys and Outbacks. NM has a feature you don't find most places in the US -- the housing development w/o paved streets. Nice houses, big houses, no pavement. And it can be a real challenge to get out of the neighborhood on a bad day. My brother had a partner who had to go and rescue his wife occasionally, as he had a 4x4 truck and she did not, and she'd get stuck in a dip between two hills of a wintery morning. L's (Legacy and Forester) are kind of meat & potatoes here, and I see quite few in the parking lots, and lots of Forester S's. There were plenty of L's (Forester and Legacy)at the dealerships in Albuquerque; and there was a fair number w/ nothing but standard features. NM is like West Virginia in a lot of ways, money-wise and terrain-wise, and a good, weather and terrain capable car is appreciated. I see a fair number of people with Legacys that take them where an Easterner would fear to tread in a Bronco -- just because they know how and the Legacy will get them up and home, all muddy and dirty (the car), but home. (and by the way, I have sat in a little Subie w/ my brother as we watched a 4x4 Bronco slide off the same clay-muddy road we were chugging right along on w/o a care).

And the L in either Legacy of Forester straddles the line between the low and upper end of competitors' offerings. Standard ABS and AWD does that. And it puts Subaru in the Audi/BMW league at the same time. You get lots of function for not so much price. Hard-to-define vehicles are all the rage now -- I think that Subaru started that.

There will be a market so long as there are ruddy-cheeked independent people living where the sky meets the land: SOA can use that by the way, my gift. Anyway -- keeps the L's.

lark6 · January 2002

goldencouple1 - I'm with you on that, but I had no idea Subarus were so popular in New Mexico. I spent a bit of time in Albuquerque a couple of years ago, doing consulting work. The group of us had rented a Dodge Durango, which I drove the bulk of the time and, except for its good highway acceleration, I absolutely loathed. We hauled computer hardware and peripherals as well as our baggage and would've been equally well served with an Outback. I think I would do well with my Forester out there, except that it's black. ;-)

New Mexico is a beautiful place but, sadly, is saddled with much poverty. I was stricken to see so many teenagers working in service jobs when I would take my lunch and dinner breaks or go to pick up some toiletries or office supplies. I kept thinking "why aren't these kids in school?" and only later did I find out why. Hopefully there will be a resurgence in high-tech or renewed interest in ecotourism that will help spur the economy.

Ed

1subydown1togo · January 2002

Here in Florida..they are necessary with all the snow we get here!

rsholland · January 2002

to that trailer I mentioned to juice last night on the chat, which he got excited about. It's sold at SAM's Club. I had to go back to SAM's today for something, so I double-checked the trailers again.

I think it's the best Class I trailer I've seen to date. Both the front and back of the trailer have the ability to fold flat to handle 4' x 12' items. It has a tilt feature too. The coupling is a Class II unit, and fits a 2" ball. It sells for $600.00. And as expectedno brakes...

The purchasing is a bit Mickey Mouse: First you purchase it. Then you take whatever info you need to the DMV to get temp trailer tags. Then you go back to SAM"s, put the tag on, then drive home.

Bob

http://www.snowbear.com/trailer_8000.html

rsholland · January 2002

on SOJ site! Click on bottom right: New car, New Challenge.

From what I can see, the proportions appear to be quite similar to the current car. There is one photo that shows the headlight, fender and part of the grille.

Bob

http://www.subaru.co.jp/

kens · January 2002

Nice catch, Bob.

What a tease! Based on what little they show you I can see that:

-Center console looks like what's on the Legacy (Tue)
-Momo steering wheel and WRX-like console (no suprise here). Beefier sunshades and new sunglass holder (Wed)
-Lower body cladding looks less "claddy" (is that a word?). Headlights seem to suggest a rectangular shape. Clear corner lenses. (Sun)

Ken

jimmyp1 · January 2002

Did you notice on the pop-up window during the loading of the Monday-Friday thing, that there were some wire-frame renderings, one of which, the profile one IIRC, had a hood scoop? The plan view (from the top) didn't. Interesting. Maybe those are all old Euro/Japan renderings, but it piqued my interest for a few seconds.

Jim

rsholland · January 2002

of profile is very similar to current model. I'm betting those who like the Forester's size will be happy.

From what I can see of the front, which is not much, the grille has a touch of GMC Envoy to it.

Bob

kens · January 2002

Jim,

Actually, the little box you click on from the homepage also shows the profile of the hood scoop. That's no suprise since the previous Forester St/B and STi in Japan and other parts of the world had turbos.

Ken

rsholland · January 2002

the scoop is for a turbo version, which Japan has had for several years.

Bob

kens · January 2002

Yeah, I thought the size wasn't too much bigger too. Looking at the wire-frame renderings it appears as if the rear seats are a tad bigger.

Keeping my fingers crossed!

Ken

jimmyp1 · January 2002

That profile looks a little more "swoopy" to me, guys and gals. Compare the "c" pillar and rear side window with those in the other Foresters shown in different windows to the side.

Jim

subearu · January 2002

Why do I even click on the subaru.co.jp site? My browser went straight to the B4 page (ok, it went to the Legacy 6 page first). Honest, I swear!

-Brian

jimmyp1 · January 2002

The front fender blister, again in the wire mesh profile, doesn't look like the current version. It stays more with the opening of the wheel well, whereas the current version is more of a straight line. So, I still think new version = hood scoop.

Jim

rsholland · January 2002

Can you get to the Home page?

Bob

bblacha · January 2002

Not bad, not bad. I was afraid they'd make it ugly, but this looks sleek and sporty, for what I can see.

No Soob scoop on Mag-X this month, but there is a Nissan TT Cruiser coming our way! (not really the name, but doesn't it look like one?) Looks like competition to the high-end Outback.

--Bart

lark6 · January 2002

It just kicks me to the "New Forester" page that just shows the current lineup.

Ed

rsholland · January 2002

There should be a horizontal pop-up window on the left. That's what you want.

Bob

lark6 · January 2002

Evolutionary, not revolutionary. Looks like there are RS-style white-faced guages and a little bit of HID lamp, too. I can dig it. Now show us the drivetrains!

Ed

rsholland · January 2002

blister is much more conventional in shape, whereas the rear fender blister is similar to the current model. Both fender blisters are somewhat similar to the Baja, but not nearly as garish.

Bob

rsholland · January 2002

has a lot of front overhang, thanks to the boxer engine layout.

Bob

rsholland · January 2002

it has larger tires. The current model has always looked under-tired, IMO.

Bob

kens · January 2002

Ed,

Try this:

http://210.254.95.20/showroom/for_p...orester_top.htm

Ken

subearu · January 2002

I got to the home page just fine. and I did eventually see the forester sun-sat pics. but, I just couldn't help myself and had to click on the Legacy icon in the middle of the page.

-Brian

rsholland · January 2002

wasn't too far off.

Bob

http://www.mag-x.com/scoop/forester0109/01.jpg

paisan · January 2002

Don't forget guys, in Japan they get different/better headlights than we do, so that may not carry over.

-mike

rsholland · January 2002

that on this new Forester Japanese site, that they don't use any Asian models. I would think that since this site is geared to the Japanese market, Asians would be the rule, but I haven't seen one anywhere...

Bob

paisan · January 2002

I wish they'd use Asian models to sell em here

-mike

kens · January 2002

Bob,

That's the funny thing about advertising in Japan. For image-heavy advertising, they often use Hollywood actors or caucasian models. Ad agencies believe it gives a more exotic, high-class impression.

That may have been true 20-30 years ago when Japan was rebuilding. Today, I think it's done more out of habit. I don't know any of my Japanese friends who stop and ask "why do they keep using non-Japanese models?". It's just been done that way for so long.

Ken

miksmi · January 2002

Interesting, Ken. I too noticed what Bob had, namely, caucasian models.

Brian, I did the same thing! I'm now swooning over www.3keys-legacy.com (no, not J-Lo).

..Mike

subearu · January 2002

I'm at a toss up - which to choose - the B4 or the 6. Dowh!

-Brian

silface · January 2002

I got an email from one of the CAMI (supposedly joint venture between Suzuki-Subaru-GM) representative. The Subaru Forester will not be built by them in Canada. For now, CAMI builds the Chevrolet Tracker and Suzuki Vitara sport utility vehicles.

Sil

paisan · January 2002

Hey guys I scanned in a few Just Diagrams of the ECVT tranny from the chilton manual for my XT6 Figured you'd like to see em.

http://isuzu-suvs.com/subaru/justyecvt/

-mike

c_hunter · January 2002

I can't put my finger on it, but the teaser pics seem to indicate that this car is still based on the Impreza platform. Not sure why I think that. Everything seems to be scaled a little smaller than my Outback, and various interior details look similar to the Impreza.

Craig

kens · January 2002

Craig,

I'm pretty sure from the teaser pics that the Forester is based on the Impreza too. I would have been surprised if it wasn't.

Ken

rsholland · January 2002

I too tend to agree. It still looks Impreza-based.

Bob

ateixeira · January 2002

Thanks for the trailer info, Bob. I'll sneak in and have a look. I wish it had taller sides. Hutch's trailer (and yours) made it easy to build up the sides with slots for 2x4s.

Wow, tease us just like Honda did for the new CR-V.

I noticed the different center console, the white gauges and silver painted accents on the interior, and the Momo steering wheel (hints of Impreza). The visor is nicer by far.

The headlights do appear to flare out like the Mag-X sketch.

Something noone else noticed, though. Check out the D-pillar, at least from the inside it looks like the Lexus GX470's. The bottom is not square, it kind of tapers upward. A minor touch but stylish.

It does appear to remain small, so looks like they left the bigger size up to the 2005 SUW.

-juice

rsholland · January 2002

Re: trailer The sides are removable, and fit into "2x4 stake" holes. So, that means, you could build your own sides, if you so should desire.

What I like about it, is this is the first Class I trailer that offers so many features: tilt capability, 8' or 12' length choice, ramp capability, and it has tie towns too.

Bob

goldencouple1 · January 2002

I think that the Mag-X rendering is pretty close as to the back of the new Forester. The hatch door is shaped differently than the current model (or certainly appears so) and that would seem to dictate the smaller/narrower rear lights as per the Mag-X rendering. Also, I get the sense that the back hatch opening and possibly the interior box is slightly larger, indicating more cargo volume.

cptplt · January 2002

spoke with a subaru senior master tech, can't be done, the non viscous coupling AWD systems used with the automatics have a part which requires some hydraulic system which is shared with the auto transmission systems.
they are not stand alone systems which can be mated to a stick shift.
I have to go find my prozac now!
If the sportsmatic system on the JDM Legacies are anything like the Audi system, they can keep it! Its rowing the gearbox and using your foot which makes stick shifts fun!

ateixeira · January 2002

Wow, I didn't notice the stake holes. That makes it perfect, basically. I'd go tomorrow but I just got tickets to the Capitals game, and we're taking the kids so it'll be an all day thing. I will check it out, though.

I've sampled VW's Tiptronic on the Passat, and also found it slow-reacting. Apparently you can chip the tranny, imagine that. But chip the tranny, chip the engine, and pretty soon it doesn't resemble the car you purchased.

-juice

rsholland · January 2002

to compete with the Highlander. It has a hint of PT Cruiser in terms of looks.

Bob

http://www.mag-x.com/scoop/tt0201/index.html

nvy · January 2002

It's been fun to watch you develop from concept to reality. IMHO you fit in w/ the group of other
Subaru models. The gene can be seen.

Later

Subaru Crew - Future Models II

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