Subaru Crew - Future Models II

subearu · February 2003

I'll take picture requests ;-)

I'm going on the 19th, fwiw.

-Brian

rsholland · February 2003

Anything we haven't seen before!

Bob

jimmyp1 · February 2003

http://forums.nasioc.com/forums/showthread.php?s=682dd7722a62d998- 5d2347f59bd1a81b&threadid=313412

Look how close they parked the other two wagons next to it to keep curious people at bay! To my eye, I don't see it as much, if any, bigger, but who knows. Spy shots should be creeping in as they start testing it. I can't wait.

Jim

lucien2 · February 2003

pic page temporarily unavailable.

ateixeira · February 2003

OK, so I bet the Forester turbo is announced in 2 days. Yummy.

wdb - welcome back!

I'd like to see the 2.5l turbo replaced the 2.0l completely, but realistically it'll depend on what kind of gas mileage they can get from the 2.5. They're already tip-toeing on the borderline of paying CAFE fines.

-juice

hypov · February 2003

Reclassing the Forester to a truck could alleviate the CAFE cap some.

-Dave

ateixeira · February 2003

Well, that would let them put *whatever* engine they wanted in the Forester, but that still doesn't help the car lineup.

AVCS or perhaps a 2.0l Impreza TS wagon and Legacy Brighton, something like that. Not sure Subaru wants to go back down-scale, though.

-juice

jimmyp1 · February 2003

those pictures have been inserted in the thread above now. The lines underneath the cover are different, but I just can't quite tell if there's a considerable size difference.

Jim

rsholland · February 2003

As exciting as the STi turbo is, my guess, is for people here at Edmunds and elsewhere, the Forester turbo will be much more meaningful. In fact, I'd bet the Forester turbo will end up being the best seller of all Subaru turbos.

Bob

ateixeira · February 2003

Easily. Right now it's the 2nd best seller behind the Outback, by far, and the Outback will likely stick with the H4 and H6.

Plus, Legacy turbo will be higher priced, and Baja turbo will be a niche within a (tiny) niche.

The only competition will be the WRX, but if they put turbos in just 1/3rd of Foresters, you'll be right Bob.

-juice

jimmyp1 · February 2003

given SUV/crossover interest right now, yes, the turbo Forester will be a huge hit, but I, for one, even with two children in car seats and a need for towing, will still be MUCH more interested in the legacy. And, just for the record, the Legacy, in its basic non-outback form, still far outsells both Outbacks, Foresters, and (I think) imprezas. For instance, here's a quote from the Subaru media page for January 2003 sales...

"The Legacy model line achieved a sales total of 5,707 units, while Subaru Outback recorded sales of 3,820 units for the month. Subaru Forester recorded sales of 3,883 units, an 11 percent increase from January 2002."

So, with the turbo supposedly showing up in both the Legacy and the Forester, I think the Forester will have a LOT of work to do to catch up with the basic Legacy. It is the Accord of the Subaru line. I also happen to be of the impression that not having the 2.5t in the Outback will spell its death, unless the Subaru marketing division somehow creates some magic with a perceived "value" in the Outback not being turboed. But this is all coming from a turbo freak, so you can factor that in to all of this

.

Jim

kens · February 2003

Good points. The Forester turbo, depending on the positioning SOA takes, will be a much more mainstream vehicle. I'm interested in seeing how the US market perceives a "turbo" engine in a vehicle like the Forester. Audi/VW has successfully made turbo engines an everyday engine choice with their vehicles.

Ken

bluesubie · February 2003

I would've never guessed that the Legacy outsells the OB. When I helped a friend shop for a GT a few years ago, it was tough to find a Legacy that wasn't an OB in NY/NJ.

One of those threads in nasioc rumors said that the H6 will be tweaked for more h.p. soon as well. A while ago I said that they should have done that. :-)

-Dennis

ateixeira · February 2003

Jim: I'm pretty sure the 5707 includes Outback sales. Note how they even say "the Legacy model line", which is vague. For the other models they're very specific.

That puts non-Outback Legacy sales at just 1887.

The Outback has been the volume leader, though it looks like Legacy L/SE sales must be eating into Outback sales somewhat (something I predicted, remember?), leaving the Forester in first place for the month of January.

-juice

ateixeira · February 2003

Automotive News does not seperate Legacy and Outback sales, they're all put under Legacy. I only have numbers for 2001, though.

I'd be willing to bet those 5707 include both Legacy and Outback sales. Anyone want to be lunch at the NY Auto Show in April? :-)

-juice

twrx · February 2003

If you do the math each month and add the two together you will get more total cars than what Subaru reports in their press release. If you use only the Legacy figure you will get the correct result.
TWRX

ateixeira · February 2003

OK, then it's for sure.

But I could tell by walking into my dealer. When we went to buy my wife's car, they had about 5 Imprezas, 15 Foresters, 3 Legacys (2 Ls and just 1 GT), and what seemed like 7.3 million Outbacks. ;-)

-juice

hondafriek · February 2003

Even here in Ottawa you will see at least 3 outbacks for every Legacy, and the Gt is ultra rare, in the 2 years I have owned the Titan,(Jeez is it that long already)I have seen only one other GT wagon the same colour, and I have seen 2 silver GTs thats it.

Cheers Pat.

lakepop · February 2003

Per an email response from Subaru......the 04 Forester 2.5 XT will debut at the Chicago Car show.
The details should be in the 2pm announcement on the 12th.
Yep......2.5 XT

jimmyp1 · February 2003

done the math before accepting those Legacy numbers so quickly, sorry. On the topic of future models, we now have confirmation that the Alaska covered Legacy has twin exhaust pipes (well he says dual exhaust, so I guess we don't know for sure - I mean my 1994 has two exhaust TIPS) and a hood scoop and that the car is "beautiful". Ready for the frustration? Says his digital camera failed. Blurry, dark, etc. People are begging him to post even the blurred photos. Keep your fingers crossed.

Jim

jimmyp1 · February 2003

well, they are on the guys website via the link in the first post now. old (current) body style. there is a second separate exhaust tip that is sort of hidden. Do the current JDM b4's etc. have that. I'm sure they do. In other words, this isn't a "first" is it?

Jim

paisan · February 2003

Could be like most Dual exhaust cars now.

2-pipes into one central cat/pipe then into one muffler with 2-outlets one on each side of the car.

My SVX is like that.

-mike

ateixeira · February 2003

Yep, Accords and TLs are like that too. Seems like that would be heavier than necessary, so I'm not big on those. Just use a single bigger diameter pipe.

Today is D-day for the Forester, 2pm? Longest 4 hours of my life!

2.0 or 2.5? I was sure it was gonna be 2.5 until the guy at the stand in Baltimore said 2.0! I'm still hoping for a 2.5 with about 200hp.

-juice

lakepop · February 2003

Post 9055......per Subaru public relations email.....2004 Forester is 2.5 !
Now about the tuning details ...we will have to wait

harbachj · February 2003

You can check out www.autosite.com for monthly sales numbers. They lump all Legacys together (including Outbacks) and all Imprezas together (including WRXs), but its shows the Legacy line outselling the Impreza line about 3 to 2 in January.

Jim H.

ateixeira · February 2003

Impreza sales have improved a lot. They're selling at about double the pace of the previous generation.

Legacy used to outsell Imprezas by more than 3 to 1.

-juice

kenoka · February 2003

You can blame (thank?) the WRX for the change in sales split.

ateixeira · February 2003

OK, continuing the discussion from Meet the Members, we're getting a 2.5XT with:

* 210hp and 235 lb-ft at a low 3600 rpm!
* AVCS and it's based on the STi engine!
* aluminum finish roof rails
* black side walls just for you Bob!
* body color door handles are new
* standard sport guage package
* Premium only with auto and black leather
* what's this Direct Control 4 speed auto? no Shiftronic I guess
* it keeps the Hill Holder

They mention cut-pile carpeting, I wonder if it's any better than the standard stuff on the XS.

The only bummer is no moonroof with the 5 speed, ugh. Maybe they'll add that later.

I want one badly!

-juice
http://www.autoweek.com/specials/2003_chicago/subaru/info.pdf

kens · February 2003

SWEET! Wow, I want one too!

Any word on if the 5-speed tranny is the same as the current one? I've been skeptical about the ability of the current tranny to hold that level of power.

Also, I guess the Forester doesn't get VTD. Bummer.

But, I'm not complaining. This is fantastic news!

Ken

jimmyp1 · February 2003

Is that it's so low-strung. Seems like longevity should be just about guaranteed.

Jim

kajko · February 2003

Juice,

i want one too!! problem is, we bought ours in Nov02 and it is probably $7-$8K more than the X version.. :-(

I LOVE the numbers: 210hp AND 235lb-ft @ 3600rpm!

i am not sure whether i will be able to drive my Forester this afternoon.

twrx · February 2003

The 5 speed in my WRX has been holding up fine. That said I wish that the premium package was going to be available with the 5 speed. With the overwhelming % WRXs being MT i would suspect there will be a large demand for the 5 speed with this car too.

TWRX

ateixeira · February 2003

Agreed, Jim. If the STi makes 300hp and this makes 210, it's way overengineered.

kajko brings up a good point - pricing. They know to be careful, the VDC sold in such volumes, while the WRX sold like hot cakes. I'm hoping the turbo is about a $2 grand option.

I actually did not like that the sport gauges are standard - that inches up the price.

The WRX tranny failures were with heavily modded 2002 models, most with more than 250hp. And the 2003s got that force limiting valve in the clutch, and that alone seemed to stop the tranny failures.

The Forester shouldn't be as peaky, so if anything it might put less stress on the tranny vs. the stock WRX engine.

-juice

bluesubie · February 2003

Nice!

-Dennis

paisan · February 2003

The Forester shouldn't be as peaky, so if anything it might put less stress on the tranny vs. the stock WRX engine

It's the shock to the system that kills the MTs not the peaky stuff. That's why low-end torque monsters like all the H6 engines still have the AT rather than the MT. IMHO.

-mike

kens · February 2003

TWRX: The WRX 5-speed uses a pull type clutch vs. the push type all other manual tranny Subarus (except for the STi) gets. That's why I was wondering if Subaru was going to drop in the WRX 5-speed transmission into the Forester XT.

Ken

ateixeira · February 2003

I don't expect Forester owners to be power-shifting 2nd gear, which is how most of those WRX trannies broke.

Those guys weren't lifting off the gas, keeping the engine at redline and then dumping the clutch in each successive gear.

You know what? They deserve blown trannies.

-juice

kens · February 2003

True, although I can see the turbo lending itself to more "spirited" driving.

The direct control auto sounds like a new form of shiftronic. Anyone see any photos of the interior yet?

Ken

ateixeira · February 2003

Nope, just the two exterior pix. I'm glad they kept the cross bars, I think the Cross Sports deleted them.

Automotivenews.com is basically a copy of Autoweek's links. Chicagoautoshow.com is even worse, looks like a repring of the Detroit show.

-juice

subearu · February 2003

try the 'rep' trick at the Chicago Autoshow next Wednesday when I go. Perhaps I can get some better pics than we'll see in the press?

Won't hold my breath on it, but I'll try.

Very curious as to the price of the XT. That will help me guesstimate the Legacy pricing.

-Brian

ateixeira · February 2003

Go on a day when it snows (if possible), and wear Subaru paraphernalia.

-juice

subearu · February 2003

mid-week (wednesday the 19th) to avoid the crowds we normally hit on the weekends. We'll get there at doors-open. And if it's snowy, that'll be a bonus!

Unfortunately, I don't have anything with Subaru on it (nor do I have anything with Edmunds on it for that matter).

-Brian

kajko · February 2003

i'm no expert on transmissions, but could the fact that the MT in 03MY is better than previous models (after all, MT can pull 400lbs more in towing), be a "foreshadow" design for the turbo? in other words, was the newer MT in 03 designed for the turbo all along?

juice, i like your optimism about $2k turbo, but it having pretty much all XS accessories and then some (gauge pack, styled wheels) still adds on at least $5k to the base pricing. Not bad, but pricey at >$25k for ppl like me. i hope SOA will eventually sell more XT than any other Foresters, which in a few years might bring the price down... by then i will have saved enough Chase coupons to knock off $3500!

rsholland · February 2003

You knew I was going to ask this:)

Any sort upgraded towing package being offered?

Bob

ateixeira · February 2003

$5k extra and I'd choke. Hope not.

-juice

PS Yes, Bob, I got a secret message from the dungeon (Patti?) that said the 2.5XT can tow 7000 lbs with no trailer brakes! And if you believe that I got a great deal for you on some property in the Florida Everglades! ;-)

rsholland · February 2003

that the HP is less than the H-6. I wonder if they did that for marketing reasons?

Bob

ateixeira · February 2003

Who cares, torque is what moves you. :-)

Actually, it's smart. Insurance rates will be reasonable. If it made 235hp/210lb-ft it would cost a fortune to insure, and probably have major turbo lag.

-juice

rsholland · February 2003

it's now got the power to tow 5000 pounds. The (unit body) Grand Cherokee 4.0 I-6 can tow 5000, and it only has 190 HP, and ~ 228 pounds of torque. The question is: Did Subaru beef up the rest of the body? If not, it's probably still rated at 2400/2000 (manual/auto).

Bob

rsholland · February 2003

I hope it's tuned to run on regular.

Bob

kajko · February 2003

juice, i am thinking $5k above the X version...

much more torque and disc brakes all around with EBD... maybe we'll finally see it upgraded to the rest of the Foresters around the world: 3500lbs, then all we would need is the self-leveling suspension so that 300lbs on the tongue wouldn't make your front drift every which way...

what about mileage predictions: more or less?
it would be hard to have a light foot, but in an honest comparison...

Subaru Crew - Future Models II

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