Subaru Crew - Future Models II

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Comments

  • cusafrcusafr Member Posts: 184
    If I understand correctly, the only interior color "choice" is Black! I know the forester does not sell as well in the South as it does in the North, but if this is the only interior color, then you can be assured that trend will continue. Any light color and I was a serious looker. Now, why bother.

    cusafr
  • rshollandrsholland Member Posts: 19,788
    This is the first Subaru turbo to use the Hill-Holder clutch.

    Bob
  • rshollandrsholland Member Posts: 19,788
    of VTD for the automatic. That's a surprise!

    Bob
  • allhorizonallhorizon Member Posts: 483
    The AVCS should keep the mileage reasonable, I suspect about the same as the non-turbo in soft driving, and perhaps 2-4mpg less when driving hard. I am also pretty sure that (despite official claims I am almost sure to come), the manual version will get better mileage than the auto.

    If they made it run on regular, that would be a feat. I doubt it. Not a big deal on a ~$25K vehicle in my opinion.

    I also doubt that it has any structural changes to the body. Perhaps a slightly differently tuned suspension, but nothing that would increase its towing capacity significantly (more limited by weight and weight distribution).

    I also don't like the black interior, but if you get the manual, just get after-market leather. That adds relatively little to the cost compared to other vehicles in this segment (well, are there any competitors left?).

    - D
  • rshollandrsholland Member Posts: 19,788
    http://www.edmunds.com/news/autoshows/articles/89290/page011.html

    A few comments/questions:

    • I'm really happy to see the 5-speed manual being offered. It had been rumored that only a automatic would show up. Having said that, my guess, considering how's it's tuned, the automatic may just be the hot ticket...

    • 210 HP is good. I figured between 215–220. One so-called SOA insider stated 225. I'll take the 210, and be happy with it. It's also a good distance from the WRX's 227 HP, which is good from a marketing standpoint. The 235 torque is right on the money, as per the SOA insider.

    • So... there will be an XT Premium. Will there still be an XS Premium?

    • Bummed about only being able to get the moonroof with the premium package, which is auto only. :(

    • 165 HP remains for the regular 2.5, as per the SOA PDF.

    • Since there is no mention of increased towing, I can only assume it remains as is. Also a bummer... :(

    • It was rumored this car would also get the 5EAT, w/sport-shift. Didn't happen; but I assume the new automatic will be a good unit, as it's beefed up. No mention of sport-shift, so I don't expect it. I doubt the "Direct Control" is a sport-shift feature.

    • Real happy to see blackwall tires! :)

    • I bet the Legacy turbo will get the 5EAT and ~ 250 HP.

    Bob
  • subearusubearu Member Posts: 3,613
    http://www.chicagoautoshow.com/index.asp?id=1819

    Camera 1 and 2 have the Subaru area in view, but I haven't been able to get a view of any vehicles in that area. If I find 'em (or someone else does), let us know!

    -Brian
  • kenskens Member Posts: 5,869
    Bob,

    In that second link you posted, I noticed (in the photo gallery):

    - The Automatic looked like the standard gated shift pattern in the Legacy. No +/- tiptronic-like feature.

    - The photo shows the moonroof but with the manual tranny!

    Ken
  • gvmelbrtygvmelbrty Member Posts: 64
    From the Subaru press release:

    The 2004 Forester 2.5 XT is available with a standard 5-speed manual transmission or an optional new 4-speed Direct Controlled Electronic Automatic Transmission. *This advanced transmission electronically enhances shift operations for quicker, smoother shifts and better performance.*

    From the sound of it, I'm not sure "Direct Control" is the most accurate name for this new trans. It sounds like the shifting enhancement is done electronically and not via any driver input. Though I'm sure it's an emprovement none the less.

    -tom
  • allhorizonallhorizon Member Posts: 483
    ... sunroof *and* leather in that picture of the manual.

    And the non-leather picture shows a reddish tone, not black.

    Looks like they decided at the last minute to limit choices, to save money at production.

    Nice pictures. Subaru's media site still has no images up. Strange. Perhaps they realized the details are not consistent with the US specs.

    - D
  • paisanpaisan Member Posts: 21,181
    Unfortunately the wheelbase and structure of the Forester would not allow for 5000lbs towing, heck the Pilot can't even tow that and it's bigger, heavier etc.

    Would you really feel comfy with a big 5000lb camper behind the Forester? I know I wouldn't. And this is coming from the biggest towing nut (besides Bob) around who will tow anything at or near the limits. (I've towed 7800lbs behind my Trooper in a pinch)

    -mike
  • rshollandrsholland Member Posts: 19,788
    I'd be happy to tow just 3500 pounds. I mentioned 5000 pounds only because the Grand Cherokee/Liberty have unit bodies too, and that the Forester turbo's power charactorisics closely parallel those of Jeep 6-cylinder engines (both the 3.7L V6 & 4.0L I6).

    Bob
  • rshollandrsholland Member Posts: 19,788
    http://www.subdriven.com/gallerytk/gallery2.php?mode=album&al- bum=AutoShows%2FAmerican+Shows%2FChicago+2003

    I really like those new wheels. Someone over at NASIOC thought they were the same wheels found on the Japanese Forester Cross Sport (model equipped w/16" wheels).

    Bob
  • hypovhypov Member Posts: 3,068
    Those wheels looks line the UK 17"s.

    Hey, that mesh over the intercoooler. OEM?

    -Dave
  • ateixeiraateixeira Member Posts: 72,587
    The JGC gets 230 lb-ft at 3000rpm, so it comes in a little lower. Plus it weighs a *lot* more than the Forester, so I think Subaru will be conservative so you don't end up with the tail wagging the dog. I think they'll focus on the performance, not the utility, on this model.

    I'm guessing they'll at least recommend premium, like the H6. It might not be required. We'll see. Mileage? Wanna do a poll? I say 20/25 for the 5 speed, 19/25 for the automatic.

    Ken: I noticed the same two things (non-Shiftronic auto and the moonroof+5 speed). Good eye.

    A couple of more details I just noticed: it still has vinyl inserts in the black seats, but they look better in that color. The interior almost looks like leather from that side view.

    Also, the red shadow on the "XT" badge is subtle beauty, I love it. The WRX has a similar blue shadow, Bob pointed this out to me a while ago.

    Finally, the interior is more two-tone than all black, there is plenty of gray. I like it, it sort of looks more upscale that way.

    -juice
  • rshollandrsholland Member Posts: 19,788
    what's the bottom line? How deep will we have to dig into our pockets to get one?

    I say 5-speed will MSRP ~ $26K.

    Bob
  • ateixeiraateixeira Member Posts: 72,587
    Maybe even less. The XS base price is $22,895 plus $525 freight. I say the XT starts at $24,995, just so the marketing folks can say "under $25 grand". Add freight and we're talking a base MSRP of $25,520.

    Invoice will be about $2500 less, maybe $23k. If so I WANT ONE! :-)

    Hope I'm right. Now, an auto/leather/premium would then run about $28k with freight, with an invoice just over $25k.

    Not bad, either, I hope I'm right!

    -juice
  • rshollandrsholland Member Posts: 19,788
    Inquiring minds want to know...

    If the 5-speed Forester turbo is within $3K of the 5-speed WRX wagon, which would you chose?

    • If rumors are true, neither will come with a moonroof.

    • The WRX will still remain the sportier ride, but the Forester offers so much more comfy stuff, and is more practical, especially as a daily driver.

    Tough choice...

    Bob
  • ateixeiraateixeira Member Posts: 72,587
    Forester easy. Mostly because it's more practical, especially the cargo space. Also easier to get into. Easier to justify to the spouse since it's bigger (that's the real reason, LOL).

    Yet another reason - I'll wager the 2.5l engine with the turbo is far easier to drive day-to-day, with less lag and all.

    Fewer boy-racers challenging you to drag race. Less attention from the cops.

    -juice
  • locke2clocke2c Member Posts: 5,038
    I think I'd take a Forester Turbo. I've seriously been considering selling my M3 and doing my thrillseeking strictly on two wheels for a while, so the Forester is far more useful than an WRX wagon. Plus bigger is better, no replacement for displacement, insert cliche' here.

    -Colin
  • erics6erics6 Member Posts: 684
    I'm looking forward to trying them both back-to-back. Decisions decisions...

    It was 60 degrees here in Portland yesterday. I actually got to put the top down on the Miata in mid February. Rain by the weekend though :(

    Eric
  • ateixeiraateixeira Member Posts: 72,587
    Tell you what - if you want an automatic, I'd lean even more towards the Forester XT.

    Thought of something else - Forester can probably tow, I'm not sure if I'd tow at all with a WRX wagon (is it even rated for it?). More payload, too. More roof rack capacity, with cross bars standard.

    For me there'd be no question, actually.

    -juice
  • kenskens Member Posts: 5,869
    I'd also have to say Forester for now. For me, the 2.5 AVCS turbo is the kicker. I would think it's better suited for everyday driving. I also think it's going to be the more mainstream engine for Subaru in years to come.

    Also, my two concerns with a WRX wagon was less cargo space and attracting boy racers. Once the EVO starts hitting the streets, I'm sure there's going to be quite a bit of idiotic F&F re-enactments.

    What I'm eagerly waiting for now is the Legacy turbo. I think it's going to be between these two.

    First Loosh in a turbo Forester and now Colin too!!?? Wow, who knew these days would come!

    Has anyone gotten a glimpse of the Forester XT tach yet? I'm curious to know what redline is. So far, all the shots I've seen of the dash have the steering wheel blocking the view.

    Ken
  • ateixeiraateixeira Member Posts: 72,587
    One shot I saw showed a partial view, but that's it.

    So Bob, you thinking about getting a turbo for the wife, and maybe giving the Toaster to one of the kids? I doubt any of them would mind.

    -juice
  • subearusubearu Member Posts: 3,613
    I prefer not to have to spit out >$30k for a 'hot' Legacy, so a ~$25k XT would have to get a good look by me for the same reasons you guys are pointing out.

    Although, I guess I still haven't ruled out an H6 Outback. Apples to Oranges, I know.

    -Brian
  • lucien2lucien2 Member Posts: 2,984
    Hold the phone there, Ken-san. I'd be tempted, to be sure, but by the time it is my turn here to buy another new car, there will surely be a 2.5t WRX wagon and a Legacy too. Unlike Colin, there's no way on Earth I am taking up motorcycles. So my thrills will still have to come from my ride, and Forester is the least attractive auto-x choice of the three. Just depends on where things are and what life is like in 2007 or so. :-)
  • leo2633leo2633 Member Posts: 589
    I'd prefer the Forester turbo over the WRX also. It should be the better daily driver. Any mention if the XT has a different suspension setup than the standard Foresters?

    Len
  • hondafriekhondafriek Member Posts: 2,984
    M3 to forester that's quite a switch, almost as dramatic as S. Barrett going to a jeep from a WRX.
     
    Not quite but close, of course the turbo in the forester would make it quite a sleeper.

      Cheers Pat.
  • gvmelbrtygvmelbrty Member Posts: 64
    The new Forester XT specs say "standard sport gauge pack" but I noticed in the Chicago pics there is no gauge pack in place of the upper dash storage area.

    Are these pics of pre-production models that didn't get the gauges, or does this mean the main gauge cluster is different in some way and qualifies as "sport" by Subaru? I think these are just pre-production units.

    Another thing, notice the stereo is a new (and cool looking) design and I see no sign of a cassette deck. If it played MP3s, that would make up for it :).

    -tom
  • rshollandrsholland Member Posts: 19,788
    She'd be intimidated with the turbo. She still has memories of driving my old Saab 9000 turbo. One time she nearly ran up the rear of another car, when it came on boost! She's never forgotten that...

    No, if we went that route, it would probably replace the Explorer. Still gotta deal with my daughter's car first. I'm at the bottom of the family pecking order. :(

    Bob
  • rshollandrsholland Member Posts: 19,788
    Interesting. Seems everyone took their "practical pill" this morning.

    If the rest of the market reacts in the same way, the WRX wagon could take a hit as far as sales are concerned. I guess it all depends on how small the pricing gap between those two models ends up being.

    Bob
  • kenskens Member Posts: 5,869
    Hee, hee, hee. Didn't mean to ruffle your auto-x feathers.

    lucien2 "Subaru Crew - Meet The Members II" Feb 12, 2003 12:46pm

    Ken
  • rshollandrsholland Member Posts: 19,788
    That tall SOA guy who let us crawl all over the STi said that the US-spec'04 Legacy would continue with the current body style, but would have a very short-model year. He indicated the all-new '05 Legacy would be on sale next winter.

    If that's true, I wonder if the '04 Legacy GT will get the turbo? If so, my guess it would be the exact same turbo that the Forester/Baja get. Then—when the all-new '05 model debuts—that model will get ~ 250 HP and the 5EAT?

    Bob
  • sweet_subiesweet_subie Member Posts: 1,394
    Are you happy with your MPV ? We are very happy with its fit & finish.......despite a bit noisy ford engine.

    1. I wish it had AWP with Heated Seats, the rest of AWP is great.
    2. I wish it had NaV system.......
  • locke2clocke2c Member Posts: 5,038
    Bob--

    my descent is going to be much farther than you'd imagine. if I ditch the M3, it would be to stop wasting so much money and thus no Forester Turbo, or anything new, for a few years.

    so I'd actually be stepping down from an M3 to a Taurus SHO. honestly, I already drive the Taurus 90% of the time anyway but that's definitely been helped by this winter weather. and my drive to work is nothing scenic or fun (Kansas-- big surprise!) so I have no real motivation to drive the M3 instead as basic daily transportation. I'd rather ride, if the weather were nice enough.

    -Colin
  • ateixeiraateixeira Member Posts: 72,587
    I dunno, Bob, that guy also said the Forester was getting a 2.0l turbo. I don't think he was lying on purpose, but that tells me not to trust his sources. Maybe the Legacy will arrive this year after all.

    If not, I hope you're right about the engine landing in a Legacy, maybe the 2.5GT.

    Save up some money now, while you have more income than expenses. There will surely be rough times in the future, and you'll be ready for them.

    -juice
  • lakepoplakepop Member Posts: 221
      Yikes...we hardly got the latest news and we seem to be moving on to the 05...." I thinks" But then again I suppose thats really why we have the future models forum ; )
  • ateixeiraateixeira Member Posts: 72,587
    Always looking ahead...

    I'm actually looking at the SUW that will arrive in 2005, probably as a 2006 model!

    -juice
  • rshollandrsholland Member Posts: 19,788
    Will this be the upcoming Neo-SVX?

    http://just-auto.com/news_detail.asp?art=40245&dm=yes

    The grille strongly hints of the new lead designer's Alfa design heritage.

    Bob
  • ateixeiraateixeira Member Posts: 72,587
    Sweet - probably is the SVX, or a WRX coupe. Naw, can't be, the styling is too different.

    I see stacked headlights a la Infiniti G35 coupe, plus a grille that looks straight from my favotire Alfa Romeo, the 156. OK, a hint of Mazda, but overall I love it!

    Man, what a tease!

    -juice
  • locke2clocke2c Member Posts: 5,038
    hints??? the grill SCREAMS alfa, it's just using a different badge!

    I've never been found of that grill myself. it's better than dodge's but distinctive is different than "good".

    -Colin
  • kenskens Member Posts: 5,869
    I agree -- it looks like a G35 blended with an Alfa. So where's the TMIC? ;-)

    Ken
  • rshollandrsholland Member Posts: 19,788
    It also suggests (to a much smaller degree) BMW too.

    Alfa, BMW, and this sketch too, focus on the "dead center" of the front end for the facial/brand ID. Unlike the Alfa, the grille on this sketch does have some unusual bends and creases, which the Alfa doesn't have—and never did have in the past either.

    I do like having the Subaru oval logo now being a focal point at the top of the grille surround. I've always felt, from a pure design standpoint, that having the oval logo just stuck in the middle of the grille, to be a very bland design solution, used by many other carmakers. With this new design, the oval logo now becomes an integral part of the front end design, and IMO, a much better design solution.

    One more thing: If you look "very carefully" at the new '04 Impreza front end, you will see a hint of this new "curve/crease" at the base of the grille. This is the beginning of a gradual design evolution towards this new Subie "face" that this sketch suggests.

    Bob
  • paisanpaisan Member Posts: 21,181
    And it could have the 3.0t that they are talking about. But Impreza-sized is a bit small. I was hoping for something SVX sized...

    -mike
  • rshollandrsholland Member Posts: 19,788
    The SVX has a 102.8" wheelbase. The Impreza has a 99.4" wheelbase. The Legacy/Outback has a 104.4" wheelbase. Wheelbase, more than anything else, will determine interior space, at least as far as legroom is concerned.

    Bob
  • ateixeiraateixeira Member Posts: 72,587
    It's actually sort of an Alfa grille upside down. I mentioned Mazda because it looks like it has 5 points.

    We're already seeing the influence of that Alfa designer that moved over to Subaru.

    -juice
  • rshollandrsholland Member Posts: 19,788
    New grille vs. Alfa grille...

    The key difference between this new Subie grille, and the Alfa grille, is that the Alfa grille is wider at the top and tapers to a point at the bottom. This new Subie grille is the direct opposite of that: It is wider at the bottom and tapers to a point (where the logo is) at the top.

    I think it's an excellent design solution, in that the whole (design) purpose of the grille, is to throw the maximum emphasis towards the Subaru logo, which it does it does in a superb fashion. The whole grille literally points directly to the Subaru logo. The effect is much like that of the star on top of a Christmas tree.

    Bob
  • paisanpaisan Member Posts: 21,181
    I think the SVX is wider than an impreza (heck it might be wider than an OB). I"m sure bob will dig up the width figures though :)

    -mike
  • ateixeiraateixeira Member Posts: 72,587
    I like it too, Bob. Certainly looks better than the current WRX front end, or the Forester front-end. Those have been compared to Neons and Elantras.

    Nice to be compared to Alfa and BMW, no?

    -juice
  • rshollandrsholland Member Posts: 19,788
    I started a thread over at nasoic on the Neo-SVX. Scroll down a bit and you will find a post with a much larger image of this drawing.

    http://forums.nasioc.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=31- - - 5773

    Bob
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