Subaru Crew - Future Models II

rsholland · February 2003

Canadian Forester XT micro site:

http://www.forester2003.ca/english/turbo/english.html

0-100 kmh (62 mph) in 9.5 sec! This is mentioned in the "power" intro. Not very quick...

Bob

cusafr · February 2003

Can this be correct? What does the regular 165-HP Forester do?

rsholland · February 2003

From a NASIOC thread on this micro site:

<< Please revisit the link mentioned in my first post. Also, this Subaru of Canada, Inc. (SCI) press release (see http://www.subaru.ca/interface/Suba...eDisplayed+Desc) says:

quote:

Equipped with a 2.5-litre, DOHC intercooled turbocharged engine that produces 210 hp at 5,600 rpm and 235 lb-ft of torque at 3,600 rpm, the new Forester achieves impressive sports car levels of performance, including a 0  60 time of just 6.1 seconds.>>

Bob

cusafr · February 2003

Now that's more like it! I knew 9.5 had to be wrong.

CUSAFR

allhorizon · February 2003

Wow, that's faster than I had expected. I know the weight is about the same as the WRX, but... somehow you just don't expect that from a box on wheels. I know, I know, wind resistence just barely starts to come into play for 0-60 times - it's just something subjective.

I better start saving money right away.

To read the entire press release, go to http://www.subaru.ca/ and follow the 'News and Events' link.

jimmyp1 · February 2003

April can't come soon enough for me. I am WAY more excited about all the new Legacy news than I have been about anything else. I guess that should tell me something.

http://forums.nasioc.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&postid=3365- 671#post3365671

Jim

allhorizon · February 2003

High-resolution images of the 2.5XT are now available at the subaru media web site:

http://media.subaru.com/

follow the link to the Forester Product Information.

- D

rsholland · February 2003

These photos support the statement made by the SOA rep at the Baltimore Auto show. If you recall, he stated the '04 Legacy turbo would be on the current platform, but would have a very short model year.

Note the wheels: These appear to be the same as the World-spec (but not North America) WRX 17" anthracite wheels!

My guess is that these are the real thing.

Bob

kens · February 2003

Sweet! 6.1 seconds is way quicker than I was expecting. Subaru sandbagged the WRX 0-60 times initially -- I wonder if they did the same with the Forester.

Turbo Legacy next!

Ken

ateixeira · February 2003

WOW!

If it can really do 6.1, it'll be quicker than C&D's results for the X5 4.6, the FX45, and the ML55 AMG.

So I guess if you want a slower car, you could downgrade to one of those mega-buck V8 models!

That's quicker that some WRX wagon results.

Legacy too? Man, oh man. I guess we were wondering if they'd push the redesign forward a year, looks like no. Instead they'll offer more power on the current platform.

I guess it was an easy decision - they already had done the engineering for the Baja turbo. Why not?

This is exactly what I wanted. For my next car, I'll have several choices. Life is sweet.

-juice

rsholland · February 2003

The Legacy/Baja turbo-twins will be introduced together at NY, and the all-new '05 Legacy and Detroit next January.

Question: Will the lame-duck '04 Legacy turbo get the same turbo engine as the '04 Forester & Baja. I suspect it will, and the '05 model, to be introed at Detroit, will have a power upgrade. Just a gut feeling...

Bob

hondafriek · February 2003

I do'nt know so much about it being a lame duck, a lot of people actually like the current body style,newer does not always necessarily mean better IMHO.

Cheers Pat.

rsholland · February 2003

"Lame Duck" was in reference to the fact that it is on the way out, as '04 (or '03?) could be the last model year. It was not meant to be a comment that was critical of the vehicle. Think in terms of a lame-duck president as a similar analogy.

Bob

rsholland · February 2003

remains a 2.0!

This is a surprise (to me), as I thought this too would become a 2.5, because it was announced well after the other Imprezas in Australia, as well as our 2.5 STi version.

Now I wonder about the upcoming new Aussie turbo Forester? Will it be a 2.0 or 2.5?

http://subaru.com.au/explore/impreza/exterior.asp?item=11587

Bob

kens · February 2003

It's going to be a tough choice between a turbo Legacy and Forester for me. The WRX wagon has some competition!

I guess Subaru felt there was enough benefit of adding a whole new engine to the Legacy in it's last year. It'll be interesting how sales go after they introduce the 2005 model.

Ken

subearu · February 2003

As Juice said, we now have 'choices' for our next vehicle. Up to this point, I'd never had concidered the Forester, primarily because I like the way my Outback rides/feels. But, the XT may be just enough for me to come over to the 'darkside'. And it will be cheaper than an equivalent Legacy, at least I'd think so.

We'll see. Probably later this summer I plan on test driving a VDC, a 'plain' WRX wagon, and the XT. Not that I need to do anything this year, but I could be persuaded easily. ;-)

-Brian

gvmelbrty · February 2003

I guess that answers my question about the "sport gauge pack" mentioned in the Chicago press release for the Forester XT. The Canadian press release and microsite refer to "sport design instrumentation" and "a sporty new gauge design." So it's a redesigned main guage cluster and not external gauges. Price-wise that's good because didn't Subaru charge something like $500 for those extra gauges?

Also, I noticed the Canadian PR mentions a standard "roof-mounted body-colour rear spoiler." I didn't see that in the Chicago release.

-Tom

gvmelbrty · February 2003

We know the Forester XT's engine will have the same new STi semi-closed deck block design

and will also have the Active Valve Control System (AVCS) heads

, but this is very suprising - the same heavy-duty STi internals as well, as reported by the Sacramento Bee (w/ some new pics):

"The engine internals feature aluminum-alloy pistons, forged high-carbon steel connecting rods and sodium-filled exhaust valves."

http://www.cars.com/carsapp/sacbee/?srv=parser&act=display&am- p;tf=/features/autoshow2003/coverage/chicago/posted/coverage_02_1- 2_05.tmpl

-tom

hondafriek · February 2003

I guess I was over prickly to the lame duck comment thanks for clearing it up.

Cheers Pat.

kens · February 2003

That would certainly be great news if the XT got the same internals as the STi, but somehow I'm still skeptical. It just seems like overkill for a low-boost turbo. So far that's the only article I've seen that mentions the shared parts between the two engines. I'll suspend judgement until I see a few more pointing out the same things.

Ken

allhorizon · February 2003

Well, Subarus Canadian 2.5XT micro site at least mentions things like the semi-closed deck aluminum engine block with "redesigned pistons and camshafts". And of course AVCS and drive-by-wire throttle management.

- D

paisan · February 2003

Bob got his wish...

http://www.thecarconnection.com/index.asp?article=5646&pf=1

-mike

subearu · February 2003

If they only opt for the STi version of the Legacy, I'd be forced into a WRX or XT because of price. I'd applaud SOA for entering the $40k market, but I'd have a hard time justifying that expense to my dw. ;-)

This also notes that the 'hot' engine is the H6. I wonder if they'll still do an equivalent to the XT?

-Brian

jthorsen · February 2003

Talk about a sleeper, the "camouflage" on that Legacy makes it look like a hearse! (The world's fastest hearse, no doubt.)

I for one am certainly hoping that the redesigned Legacy makes it here this summer instead of next year...with the rumors that the 04 WRX wagon won't get the AWP or sunroof and the announcement that the Forester XT 5 sp is not available with the premium package I'm beginning to seriously think Subaru doesn't want my money! And with two big dogs the extra size in the Legacy would be ideal, but it's got to get here before July and that's looking pretty doubtful at this point...

-Jon

sweet_subie · February 2003

Wow! Finally, Subaru has made a car that I have been waiting for. Any buyers for my 01 OB ?

Two questions:
1. Only disappointment i had was no Momo Steering for XT. IS it optional ? Anyone.

2. Torque:
XT: 235 pound-feet of torque at 3,500 rpm.
H6: 210 ft-lbs. @ 4400 rpm

hypov · February 2003

NASIOC.
There's your option.

Keep an eye for it there.

-Dave

sweet_subie · February 2003

what is that option ? can you explain, please

xccoachlou · February 2003

Does anyone know when..

A) The 04 Foresters are coming out?

The 04 OB's, and whether they will be the new redesign or not...

Thanks,

- Lou

sweet_subie · February 2003

http://www.subdriven.com/gallerytk/gallery2.php?mode=album&al- bum=Automobiles%2FForester%2F2004+XT+2.5+Turbo#

check this ? is this larger than the regular Forester moonroof, anyone ?

I hope Subaru won't confuse me by offering a 3.0 turbo in Legacy.......

hypov · February 2003

Krisshna-
Go to www.nasioc.com and check out their private classified, mainly 'For Sale'. You might get lucky finding someone parting out their WRX.

-Dave

jimmyp1 · February 2003

That is huge. Maybe I just have never really known how big they are, but that seems like a new thing to me.

Jim

ateixeira · February 2003

That's the regular moonroof. That's also why I want one!

Throttle-by-wire for the XT? Really? Where did you read that? I actually don't usually like those, they don't feel as linear, more on/off.

Each generation Subaru has gotten heavier and more expensive. And only recently have they countered that with more power in certain models. They're adding 200 pounds or so and keeping the same 2.5l without significant upgrades.

So more space? Yes. Longer wheelbase? Sure. But they have to find efficiencies they can explore. The Impreza and Legacy gained weight, but the Forester actually lost weight. I hope that rubs off on the next Legacy.

-juice

paisan · February 2003

It's in the STi and XT. I have it in the Trooper and it seems to work well.

-mike

kens · February 2003

Ditto here. Our Jetta uses drive by wire and I don't have an issue with it.

Ken

sweet_subie · February 2003

1. Go to media.subaru.com
2. Click on Product Info, Forester
3. Click on XT At a Glance.

jimmyp1 · February 2003

that I linked a few days ago? Seems the original poster has been contacted and it was requested that he remove the picture he snapped of what was under the hood. People were thinking that it looked like the Legacy was going to Throttle by wire also, and there were some very interesting things going on with the air intake, etc. Unfortunately, since I didn't expect the picture to disappear, I didn't save a copy for myself. Interesting.

Jim

rsholland · February 2003

I've been following it, in fact I think I posted there a few days ago. If you recall, the Forester 2.5 XT and 2.5 STi were also "discovered" in Alaska, shortly before being unveiled at recent car shows.

Bob

rsholland · February 2003

from Paul Hansen (today?) over in a the NASIOC Legacy STi forum:

<< May's the big month, oh yes.

Cheers,

Paul Hansen >>

So, if the all-new Legacy is introduced in May in Japan, that's after the NY show, which is in April. That leads me to believe (even more so now) that the '04 US-spec Legacy will remain on the current body style.

Bob

allhorizon · February 2003

Juice,

If you go to the Canadian Subaru website and navigate to the 2.5XT announcement, you will eventually get to the flash 2.5XT microsite. There you can highlight several parts of the engine, and various information comes up.

I have it in my Passat, no problem, works well. I think potential problems can be introduced at a later point in the ECU or in the electronic control of automatic transmissions.

- D

ateixeira · February 2003

I've driven Passats and the throttle modulation wasn't an issue. On some Mercedes vehicles it is - very non linear, on/off, sort of. Same with their brakes.

So I guess it can be tuned properly.

If Subaru went through the effort to get those pix deleted, it's because they are the real deal. We will surely get a 2004 Legacy turbo on the current platform, then.

And why not? They're doing a Baja, so all the engineering work is already done.

-juice

rsholland · February 2003

Here's what I think we'll see at the NY auto show in April, as far as '04 models:

1 Entry-level H-6 Outback.
2 Baja turbo with Forester XT engine.
3 Legacy GT turbo.

All of the above will most likely use the current body style. The '04 Outback and Legacy will have a shelf life of about 89 months before they're replaced with the all-new '05 models, which most likely will be introduced at the next Detroit auto show.

Question: Which engine does the '04 Legacy GT get? The Forester XT engine with 210 HP, or a more powerful one, with ~ 250 HP? I think there are + & - to either scenario.

210 HP '04 Legacy scenario

+ Easy to accommodate from a production standpoint (here in the USA) as the Baja most likely will have the same engine.

+ All Subie lines for '04 will now have turbos.

+ Allows for a bigger "splash" when the '05 model debuts in another 89 months, with a still more powerful turbo.

- a bit of a "downer," in that the Legacy GT should have a more powerful turbo than either the Forester or Baja.

250 HP '04 Legacy scenario

+ The Legacy GT gets the "proper" engine it deserves, right from the git-go.

- There could be less "splash" when the all-new '05 model debutsunless they hold back some other goodies for the '05 model, such as the 5EAT or perhaps an H-6 Legacy.

Bob

ateixeira · February 2003

I bet you're right about those 3.

What did we see last year? The Baja debut, and the new 2.5GT, right? Plus the 2003 changes to the rest of the line up.

So basically anything we'll get by fall should be in NY, I hope so, because then we'd see all 3 of your predictions.

My guess is the Legacy is being rushed to market, so it'll get the 210hp engine just like the Baja. It's easier from a production stand point.

When the MY2005 Legacy comes out, it will get that 250hp or so (standard in the GT), but by then Baja production might even stop, so they're not making the 210hp engine in the US any more.

Hey, we should come up with a "wish list" of stuff for the 2005 Legacy. Remember how they gave us 8 things on the new Forester?

-juice

jay_24 · February 2003

What would be the advantage of a turbo H4 (210HP) in a Legacy/Outback vs. the H6? There is a slight torque increase with the turbo H4, but otherwise the same or close enough right?

I can see the turbo H4 in the Forester and Baja since they don't offer the H6....

--jay

subearu · February 2003

offers a twin turbo H4 in the Legacy, as well as a H6. I believe only a H4 and H6 are available in the Japanese Outback.

-Brian

ateixeira · February 2003

I'm surprised they're putting the same engine in the Forester and the Baja, since they are made in different factories.

That's why I think that, for now, the Legacy turbo will get the same engine from the Baja turbo.

We don't have all the details on the 2.5T engine to compare it properly to the H6. My guess is the H6 will be quieter and smoother, and the chain driven cams are more maintenance-free.

The turbo won't be as smooth but will accelerate quicker. We don't know if it'll get chains or belts for the cam, and we're not sure if premium fuel is required.

Dang, should have asked Papa Bear to look at the fuel tank opening to check that! Anyone still going to the show?

-juice

kens · February 2003

I think you're right, Bob. We'll probably see those three at the NY Auto Show.

While the 210HP Legacy GT seems more likely, it really wouldn't be that much more difficult to add a 250HP version instead. Increase the boost a bit, let it breathe a little easier and voila -- extra power.

Also, keep in mind that the Alaska spy shots showed a slightly different engine on the Legacy turbo. It was a 2.5, but the intercooler shape as well as the intake (IIRC) was different.

I don't think bringing on the 250HP engine now would hurt the MY04 intro. With a new look and hopefully lighter body, it'll still generate plenty of crowd appeal.

Ken

p0926 · February 2003

Does anyone (other than Juice) really think that the Forester XT won't require premium? That's the one major downside I can see to me upgrading (not that it would stop me mind you).

-Frank P.

rsholland · February 2003

I think premium will be "recommended," as it is in the H-6. I hope I'm wrong, and that regular is what is recommended.

Bob

subearu · February 2003

I'll likely be heading to the Milwaukee auto show (which start this weekend). If the XT is there, I'll make sure to inquire about the fuel or get a photo.

-Brian

sweet_subie · February 2003

how difficult is to buy a voice activated navigation system......thinking of buying XT....but would like to add nv system.

how come Subaru does not offer nav system, even VDC models. I don't like that onstar sys.

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