Equipped with a 2.5-litre, DOHC intercooled turbocharged engine that produces 210 hp at 5,600 rpm and 235 lb-ft of torque at 3,600 rpm, the new Forester achieves impressive sports car levels of performance, including a 0 – 60 time of just 6.1 seconds.>>
Wow, that's faster than I had expected. I know the weight is about the same as the WRX, but... somehow you just don't expect that from a box on wheels. I know, I know, wind resistence just barely starts to come into play for 0-60 times - it's just something subjective.
I better start saving money right away.
To read the entire press release, go to http://www.subaru.ca/ and follow the 'News and Events' link.
April can't come soon enough for me. I am WAY more excited about all the new Legacy news than I have been about anything else. I guess that should tell me something.
These photos support the statement made by the SOA rep at the Baltimore Auto show. If you recall, he stated the '04 Legacy turbo would be on the current platform, but would have a very short model year.
Note the wheels: These appear to be the same as the World-spec (but not North America) WRX 17" anthracite wheels!
Sweet! 6.1 seconds is way quicker than I was expecting. Subaru sandbagged the WRX 0-60 times initially -- I wonder if they did the same with the Forester.
If it can really do 6.1, it'll be quicker than C&D's results for the X5 4.6, the FX45, and the ML55 AMG.
So I guess if you want a slower car, you could downgrade to one of those mega-buck V8 models!
That's quicker that some WRX wagon results.
Legacy too? Man, oh man. I guess we were wondering if they'd push the redesign forward a year, looks like no. Instead they'll offer more power on the current platform.
I guess it was an easy decision - they already had done the engineering for the Baja turbo. Why not?
This is exactly what I wanted. For my next car, I'll have several choices. Life is sweet.
The Legacy/Baja turbo-twins will be introduced together at NY, and the all-new '05 Legacy and Detroit next January.
Question: Will the lame-duck '04 Legacy turbo get the same turbo engine as the '04 Forester & Baja. I suspect it will, and the '05 model, to be introed at Detroit, will have a power upgrade. Just a gut feeling...
I do'nt know so much about it being a lame duck, a lot of people actually like the current body style,newer does not always necessarily mean better IMHO.
"Lame Duck" was in reference to the fact that it is on the way out, as '04 (or '03?) could be the last model year. It was not meant to be a comment that was critical of the vehicle. Think in terms of a lame-duck president as a similar analogy.
This is a surprise (to me), as I thought this too would become a 2.5, because it was announced well after the other Imprezas in Australia, as well as our 2.5 STi version.
Now I wonder about the upcoming new Aussie turbo Forester? Will it be a 2.0 or 2.5?
It's going to be a tough choice between a turbo Legacy and Forester for me. The WRX wagon has some competition!
I guess Subaru felt there was enough benefit of adding a whole new engine to the Legacy in it's last year. It'll be interesting how sales go after they introduce the 2005 model.
As Juice said, we now have 'choices' for our next vehicle. Up to this point, I'd never had concidered the Forester, primarily because I like the way my Outback rides/feels. But, the XT may be just enough for me to come over to the 'darkside'. And it will be cheaper than an equivalent Legacy, at least I'd think so.
We'll see. Probably later this summer I plan on test driving a VDC, a 'plain' WRX wagon, and the XT. Not that I need to do anything this year, but I could be persuaded easily. ;-)
I guess that answers my question about the "sport gauge pack" mentioned in the Chicago press release for the Forester XT. The Canadian press release and microsite refer to "sport design instrumentation" and "a sporty new gauge design." So it's a redesigned main guage cluster and not external gauges. Price-wise that's good because didn't Subaru charge something like $500 for those extra gauges?
Also, I noticed the Canadian PR mentions a standard "roof-mounted body-colour rear spoiler." I didn't see that in the Chicago release.
We know the Forester XT's engine will have the same new STi “semi-closed deck” block design and will also have the Active Valve Control System (AVCS) heads , but this is very suprising - the same heavy-duty STi internals as well, as reported by the Sacramento Bee (w/ some new pics):
"The engine internals feature aluminum-alloy pistons, forged high-carbon steel connecting rods and sodium-filled exhaust valves."
That would certainly be great news if the XT got the same internals as the STi, but somehow I'm still skeptical. It just seems like overkill for a low-boost turbo. So far that's the only article I've seen that mentions the shared parts between the two engines. I'll suspend judgement until I see a few more pointing out the same things.
Well, Subaru’s Canadian 2.5XT ‘micro site’ at least mentions things like the semi-closed deck aluminum engine block with "redesigned pistons and camshafts". And of course AVCS and drive-by-wire throttle management.
If they only opt for the STi version of the Legacy, I'd be forced into a WRX or XT because of price. I'd applaud SOA for entering the $40k market, but I'd have a hard time justifying that expense to my dw. ;-)
This also notes that the 'hot' engine is the H6. I wonder if they'll still do an equivalent to the XT?
Talk about a sleeper, the "camouflage" on that Legacy makes it look like a hearse! (The world's fastest hearse, no doubt.)
I for one am certainly hoping that the redesigned Legacy makes it here this summer instead of next year...with the rumors that the 04 WRX wagon won't get the AWP or sunroof and the announcement that the Forester XT 5 sp is not available with the premium package I'm beginning to seriously think Subaru doesn't want my money! And with two big dogs the extra size in the Legacy would be ideal, but it's got to get here before July and that's looking pretty doubtful at this point...
That's the regular moonroof. That's also why I want one!
Throttle-by-wire for the XT? Really? Where did you read that? I actually don't usually like those, they don't feel as linear, more on/off.
Each generation Subaru has gotten heavier and more expensive. And only recently have they countered that with more power in certain models. They're adding 200 pounds or so and keeping the same 2.5l without significant upgrades.
So more space? Yes. Longer wheelbase? Sure. But they have to find efficiencies they can explore. The Impreza and Legacy gained weight, but the Forester actually lost weight. I hope that rubs off on the next Legacy.
that I linked a few days ago? Seems the original poster has been contacted and it was requested that he remove the picture he snapped of what was under the hood. People were thinking that it looked like the Legacy was going to Throttle by wire also, and there were some very interesting things going on with the air intake, etc. Unfortunately, since I didn't expect the picture to disappear, I didn't save a copy for myself. Interesting.
I've been following it, in fact I think I posted there a few days ago. If you recall, the Forester 2.5 XT and 2.5 STi were also "discovered" in Alaska, shortly before being unveiled at recent car shows.
from Paul Hansen (today?) over in a the NASIOC Legacy STi forum:
<< May's the big month, oh yes.
Cheers,
Paul Hansen >>
So, if the all-new Legacy is introduced in May in Japan, that's after the NY show, which is in April. That leads me to believe (even more so now) that the '04 US-spec Legacy will remain on the current body style.
If you go to the Canadian Subaru website and navigate to the 2.5XT announcement, you will eventually get to the flash 2.5XT microsite. There you can highlight several parts of the engine, and various information comes up.
I have it in my Passat, no problem, works well. I think potential problems can be introduced at a later point in the ECU or in the electronic control of automatic transmissions.
I've driven Passats and the throttle modulation wasn't an issue. On some Mercedes vehicles it is - very non linear, on/off, sort of. Same with their brakes.
So I guess it can be tuned properly.
If Subaru went through the effort to get those pix deleted, it's because they are the real deal. We will surely get a 2004 Legacy turbo on the current platform, then.
And why not? They're doing a Baja, so all the engineering work is already done.
All of the above will most likely use the current body style. The '04 Outback and Legacy will have a shelf life of about 8–9 months before they're replaced with the all-new '05 models, which most likely will be introduced at the next Detroit auto show.
Question: Which engine does the '04 Legacy GT get? The Forester XT engine with 210 HP, or a more powerful one, with ~ 250 HP? I think there are + & - to either scenario.
210 HP '04 Legacy scenario
+ Easy to accommodate from a production standpoint (here in the USA) as the Baja most likely will have the same engine.
+ All Subie lines for '04 will now have turbos.
+ Allows for a bigger "splash" when the '05 model debuts in another 8–9 months, with a still more powerful turbo.
- a bit of a "downer," in that the Legacy GT should have a more powerful turbo than either the Forester or Baja.
250 HP '04 Legacy scenario
+ The Legacy GT gets the "proper" engine it deserves, right from the git-go.
- There could be less "splash" when the all-new '05 model debuts—unless they hold back some other goodies for the '05 model, such as the 5EAT or perhaps an H-6 Legacy.
What did we see last year? The Baja debut, and the new 2.5GT, right? Plus the 2003 changes to the rest of the line up.
So basically anything we'll get by fall should be in NY, I hope so, because then we'd see all 3 of your predictions.
My guess is the Legacy is being rushed to market, so it'll get the 210hp engine just like the Baja. It's easier from a production stand point.
When the MY2005 Legacy comes out, it will get that 250hp or so (standard in the GT), but by then Baja production might even stop, so they're not making the 210hp engine in the US any more.
Hey, we should come up with a "wish list" of stuff for the 2005 Legacy. Remember how they gave us 8 things on the new Forester?
What would be the advantage of a turbo H4 (210HP) in a Legacy/Outback vs. the H6? There is a slight torque increase with the turbo H4, but otherwise the same or close enough right?
I can see the turbo H4 in the Forester and Baja since they don't offer the H6....
I'm surprised they're putting the same engine in the Forester and the Baja, since they are made in different factories.
That's why I think that, for now, the Legacy turbo will get the same engine from the Baja turbo.
We don't have all the details on the 2.5T engine to compare it properly to the H6. My guess is the H6 will be quieter and smoother, and the chain driven cams are more maintenance-free.
The turbo won't be as smooth but will accelerate quicker. We don't know if it'll get chains or belts for the cam, and we're not sure if premium fuel is required.
Dang, should have asked Papa Bear to look at the fuel tank opening to check that! Anyone still going to the show?
I think you're right, Bob. We'll probably see those three at the NY Auto Show.
While the 210HP Legacy GT seems more likely, it really wouldn't be that much more difficult to add a 250HP version instead. Increase the boost a bit, let it breathe a little easier and voila -- extra power.
Also, keep in mind that the Alaska spy shots showed a slightly different engine on the Legacy turbo. It was a 2.5, but the intercooler shape as well as the intake (IIRC) was different.
I don't think bringing on the 250HP engine now would hurt the MY04 intro. With a new look and hopefully lighter body, it'll still generate plenty of crowd appeal.
Does anyone (other than Juice) really think that the Forester XT won't require premium? That's the one major downside I can see to me upgrading (not that it would stop me mind you).
I'll likely be heading to the Milwaukee auto show (which start this weekend). If the XT is there, I'll make sure to inquire about the fuel or get a photo.
Comments
http://www.forester2003.ca/english/turbo/english.html
0-100 kmh (62 mph) in 9.5 sec! This is mentioned in the "power" intro. Not very quick...
Bob
<< Please revisit the link mentioned in my first post. Also, this Subaru of Canada, Inc. (SCI) press release (see http://www.subaru.ca/interface/Suba...eDisplayed+Desc) says:
quote:
Equipped with a 2.5-litre, DOHC intercooled turbocharged engine that produces 210 hp at 5,600 rpm and 235 lb-ft of torque at 3,600 rpm, the new Forester achieves impressive sports car levels of performance, including a 0 – 60 time of just 6.1 seconds.>>
Bob
CUSAFR
I better start saving money right away.
To read the entire press release, go to http://www.subaru.ca/ and follow the 'News and Events' link.
http://forums.nasioc.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&postid=3365- 671#post3365671
Jim
http://media.subaru.com/
follow the link to the Forester Product Information.
- D
Note the wheels: These appear to be the same as the World-spec (but not North America) WRX 17" anthracite wheels!
My guess is that these are the real thing.
Bob
Turbo Legacy next!
Ken
If it can really do 6.1, it'll be quicker than C&D's results for the X5 4.6, the FX45, and the ML55 AMG.
So I guess if you want a slower car, you could downgrade to one of those mega-buck V8 models!
That's quicker that some WRX wagon results.
Legacy too? Man, oh man. I guess we were wondering if they'd push the redesign forward a year, looks like no. Instead they'll offer more power on the current platform.
I guess it was an easy decision - they already had done the engineering for the Baja turbo. Why not?
This is exactly what I wanted. For my next car, I'll have several choices. Life is sweet.
-juice
Question: Will the lame-duck '04 Legacy turbo get the same turbo engine as the '04 Forester & Baja. I suspect it will, and the '05 model, to be introed at Detroit, will have a power upgrade. Just a gut feeling...
Bob
Cheers Pat.
Bob
This is a surprise (to me), as I thought this too would become a 2.5, because it was announced well after the other Imprezas in Australia, as well as our 2.5 STi version.
Now I wonder about the upcoming new Aussie turbo Forester? Will it be a 2.0 or 2.5?
http://subaru.com.au/explore/impreza/exterior.asp?item=11587
Bob
I guess Subaru felt there was enough benefit of adding a whole new engine to the Legacy in it's last year. It'll be interesting how sales go after they introduce the 2005 model.
Ken
We'll see. Probably later this summer I plan on test driving a VDC, a 'plain' WRX wagon, and the XT. Not that I need to do anything this year, but I could be persuaded easily. ;-)
-Brian
Also, I noticed the Canadian PR mentions a standard "roof-mounted body-colour rear spoiler." I didn't see that in the Chicago release.
-Tom
"The engine internals feature aluminum-alloy pistons, forged high-carbon steel connecting rods and sodium-filled exhaust valves."
http://www.cars.com/carsapp/sacbee/?srv=parser&act=display&am- p;tf=/features/autoshow2003/coverage/chicago/posted/coverage_02_1- 2_05.tmpl
-tom
Cheers Pat.
Ken
- D
http://www.thecarconnection.com/index.asp?article=5646&pf=1
-mike
This also notes that the 'hot' engine is the H6. I wonder if they'll still do an equivalent to the XT?
-Brian
I for one am certainly hoping that the redesigned Legacy makes it here this summer instead of next year...with the rumors that the 04 WRX wagon won't get the AWP or sunroof and the announcement that the Forester XT 5 sp is not available with the premium package I'm beginning to seriously think Subaru doesn't want my money! And with two big dogs the extra size in the Legacy would be ideal, but it's got to get here before July and that's looking pretty doubtful at this point...
-Jon
Two questions:
1. Only disappointment i had was no Momo Steering for XT. IS it optional ? Anyone.
2. Torque:
XT: 235 pound-feet of torque at 3,500 rpm.
H6: 210 ft-lbs. @ 4400 rpm
There's your option.
Keep an eye for it there.
-Dave
A) The 04 Foresters are coming out?
Thanks,
- Lou
check this ? is this larger than the regular Forester moonroof, anyone ?
I hope Subaru won't confuse me by offering a 3.0 turbo in Legacy.......
Go to www.nasioc.com and check out their private classified, mainly 'For Sale'. You might get lucky finding someone parting out their WRX.
-Dave
Jim
Throttle-by-wire for the XT? Really? Where did you read that? I actually don't usually like those, they don't feel as linear, more on/off.
Each generation Subaru has gotten heavier and more expensive. And only recently have they countered that with more power in certain models. They're adding 200 pounds or so and keeping the same 2.5l without significant upgrades.
So more space? Yes. Longer wheelbase? Sure. But they have to find efficiencies they can explore. The Impreza and Legacy gained weight, but the Forester actually lost weight. I hope that rubs off on the next Legacy.
-juice
-mike
Ken
2. Click on Product Info, Forester
3. Click on XT At a Glance.
Jim
Bob
<< May's the big month, oh yes.
Cheers,
Paul Hansen >>
So, if the all-new Legacy is introduced in May in Japan, that's after the NY show, which is in April. That leads me to believe (even more so now) that the '04 US-spec Legacy will remain on the current body style.
Bob
If you go to the Canadian Subaru website and navigate to the 2.5XT announcement, you will eventually get to the flash 2.5XT microsite. There you can highlight several parts of the engine, and various information comes up.
I have it in my Passat, no problem, works well. I think potential problems can be introduced at a later point in the ECU or in the electronic control of automatic transmissions.
- D
So I guess it can be tuned properly.
If Subaru went through the effort to get those pix deleted, it's because they are the real deal. We will surely get a 2004 Legacy turbo on the current platform, then.
And why not? They're doing a Baja, so all the engineering work is already done.
-juice
1 Entry-level H-6 Outback.
2 Baja turbo with Forester XT engine.
3 Legacy GT turbo.
All of the above will most likely use the current body style. The '04 Outback and Legacy will have a shelf life of about 8–9 months before they're replaced with the all-new '05 models, which most likely will be introduced at the next Detroit auto show.
Question: Which engine does the '04 Legacy GT get? The Forester XT engine with 210 HP, or a more powerful one, with ~ 250 HP? I think there are + & - to either scenario.
210 HP '04 Legacy scenario
+ Easy to accommodate from a production standpoint (here in the USA) as the Baja most likely will have the same engine.
+ All Subie lines for '04 will now have turbos.
+ Allows for a bigger "splash" when the '05 model debuts in another 8–9 months, with a still more powerful turbo.
- a bit of a "downer," in that the Legacy GT should have a more powerful turbo than either the Forester or Baja.
250 HP '04 Legacy scenario
+ The Legacy GT gets the "proper" engine it deserves, right from the git-go.
- There could be less "splash" when the all-new '05 model debuts—unless they hold back some other goodies for the '05 model, such as the 5EAT or perhaps an H-6 Legacy.
Bob
What did we see last year? The Baja debut, and the new 2.5GT, right? Plus the 2003 changes to the rest of the line up.
So basically anything we'll get by fall should be in NY, I hope so, because then we'd see all 3 of your predictions.
My guess is the Legacy is being rushed to market, so it'll get the 210hp engine just like the Baja. It's easier from a production stand point.
When the MY2005 Legacy comes out, it will get that 250hp or so (standard in the GT), but by then Baja production might even stop, so they're not making the 210hp engine in the US any more.
Hey, we should come up with a "wish list" of stuff for the 2005 Legacy. Remember how they gave us 8 things on the new Forester?
-juice
I can see the turbo H4 in the Forester and Baja since they don't offer the H6....
--jay
-Brian
That's why I think that, for now, the Legacy turbo will get the same engine from the Baja turbo.
We don't have all the details on the 2.5T engine to compare it properly to the H6. My guess is the H6 will be quieter and smoother, and the chain driven cams are more maintenance-free.
The turbo won't be as smooth but will accelerate quicker. We don't know if it'll get chains or belts for the cam, and we're not sure if premium fuel is required.
Dang, should have asked Papa Bear to look at the fuel tank opening to check that! Anyone still going to the show?
-juice
While the 210HP Legacy GT seems more likely, it really wouldn't be that much more difficult to add a 250HP version instead. Increase the boost a bit, let it breathe a little easier and voila -- extra power.
Also, keep in mind that the Alaska spy shots showed a slightly different engine on the Legacy turbo. It was a 2.5, but the intercooler shape as well as the intake (IIRC) was different.
I don't think bringing on the 250HP engine now would hurt the MY04 intro. With a new look and hopefully lighter body, it'll still generate plenty of crowd appeal.
Ken
-Frank P.
Bob
-Brian
how come Subaru does not offer nav system, even VDC models. I don't like that onstar sys.