Subaru Crew - Future Models II

sweet_subie · February 2003

How come Subaru is not taking advantage of the VDC system in its models, at least as an option like in XT ?

Wouldn't it be great if it were to offer VDC option in Forester XT, a fast car with control. anything wrong with that ?

See toyota offers VSC in Sienna, Highlander & in Lexus RX........

sweet_subie · February 2003

I own an 01 OB(auto)......oh boy I must say I would never buy 4wd other than Subaru's...

During this Monday Blizard in NE, My OB was flawless in correcting itself while the wheels slip..wonder how VDC would have performed...i saw in my own eyes the new CRV, Nissan Frontier slippind like anything.....

It is truly a better AWD system.....though all manufacturers offer 4wd does not mean they compete easily. See Edmunds' road test on Nissan Murano....they say 4wd does not feel any different from the 2wd.

hypov · February 2003

sweet_subie Feb 20, 2003 9:24pm

Not difficult, if you have a deep pocket.

Go with Garmin's StreetPilot III. Not voice activated though, but doesn't burn a hole in your pocket. Oh, it's voice guided.

-Dave

locke2c · February 2003

premium's only meaning is psychological.

think about what that $.12-.16 more per gallon means per year, at even a paltry 20mpg and the annual mileage you accrue.

now think about what you pay in car payments, insurance and routine maintenance.

-Colin
or do I need to do the numbers to make this point?

p0926 · February 2003

Colin- Premium is $.20 more per gallon here. So for me the additional annual cost would be $144. Maybe not a huge amount in the over all scheme of things but not chump change either.

-Frank P.

locke2c · February 2003

See? I spend that per year on soda in the vending machine at work. $144 most certainly is chump change when you're paying $4,500-6,000 per year for the vehicle itself, anywhere from $500-2500 per year insurance, plus registration, property tax...

If it takes premium to get the specific output I'm looking for, I pay it. Of course, all my motorcycles take it and my RS ran better on it (even before the cams, strangely) and my Taurus and M3 both use it now...

-Colin

paisan · February 2003

Wow that's like 3 dinners out in manhattan for me.

Talk about chump change!

I have to agree with Colin on this one. Also show me a Turbo car that DOESN'T require Premium fuel?

-mike

rsholland · February 2003

$26,995! Check out SOA site, under Outback! I can't believe SOA didn't do a press release on this!

http://www.subaru.com/home.html

Bob

ateixeira · February 2003

Ken: the 2.5T is a new powertrain, unproven in terms of long term durability. Sure, so is the STi's, but that's a limited production vehicle. The Legacy turbo will sell in volumes. I think they'd be smart to ensure the clutch and trannies can handle that power reliably before they take the dive.

In fact, if it does get 250hp, they really ought to use the 6 speed tranny from the STi, to handle that power.

I'm with Bob on the premium gas being recommended for the XT, not required. Hope I'm right. $2.059 in Potomac for 93 octane!

I recall reading that a chipped 1.8T engine absolutely requires 93 octane. That implies that a regular 1.8T can manage with less, I dunno. I doubt VW would tell you to use 87 though.

I like VDC and would pay $400 if it were a stand-alone option. I don't want to be forced into a nearly $30 grand vehicle to get it, though. Plus so far they've only coupled it up to VTD AWD and an automatic.

-juice

ateixeira · February 2003

Finally! Canada has had this for a while now, according to Pat.

The price seems good, only $200 more than the Limited. So choose the H6 or leather/moonroof. I bet that helps sales a lot.

It's also a whopping $3200 (!) cheaper than the LL Bean model. That makes the H6 far more accessible.

Sweet. Where was this a year ago when we were shopping? It would have been perfect for the wife.

-juice

bluesubie · February 2003

Krisshna - The wife of the owner of my dealership drives an LL Bean. I asked why not a VDC since he lives in hilly Central/West Jersey? He said he has never had a problem in the snow with ANY Subaru.

Re: premium. I'm with Colin & Mike. I've never wished that a turbo or high performance engine would run on mid-grade or regular. It's part of the entire package.

-Dennis

hypov · February 2003

Dang, two months too late for me. Or am I two months too early.

Now, why aren't they offering it to the GT too?

-Dave

paisan · February 2003

And besides it's not a legacy... Although we could have turned it into a legacy GT

-mike

ateixeira · February 2003

Yeah, simply smacking on 55 series tires gets you pretty close.

-juice

paisan · February 2003

Struts, springs sway bars

-mike

ateixeira · February 2003

Aren't the sways on the Outback already pretty thick? I think because it's heavy.

-juice

hondafriek · February 2003

If they did not put it in the legacy what does that tell you.

Cheers Pat.

sweet_subie · February 2003

Why is Base H6 wagon 26k vs. Base H6 sedan 28k ?
No heating package, even as an option on wagon ?

If it is 26.9, in few months we can buy @ 24.5.........which is a steal for H6.........!!!!!!!!!!I am now confused between Forester XT & H6 Base Wagon ?

ateixeira · February 2003

I think the "base" sedan still has leather as well, plus the AWP. I wonder if the sedan will get a cloth H6 model.

-juice

p0926 · February 2003

No confusion for me. I rarely transport more than two adults (so no rear leg-room issues) and I prefer sporty handling over comfy cruiser so XT it is!

-Frank P.

rsholland · February 2003

it doesn't have the 6-disk CD changer, however. That's an option.

Bob

ateixeira · February 2003

Oh yeah, that's right. Heated cloth, just add an aftermarket moonroof and it's perfect.

-juice

bsvoller · February 2003

Gas prices: I burn about 40 gallons a month, on average, so a 20 cent increase in gas costs me $8 a month or $96 per year.

Considering what some people pay for cable, magazine subscriptions, etc, it's cheap. In college I always budgeted in pizza and beers - it's not even a meal's worth. I used to watch gas prices, until I did the math one day.

So I burn premium in the Forester (91 octane here) instead of mid-grade (87 octane here). I like to shift early, and regularly luff around town sub-2000 RPM's (40 in 5th gear). I figure I'm less likely to get ping (have yet to hear it), and I might discourage the knock sensor from retarding the timing on me.

Not sure why our octane grades are different. Maybe it has something to do with the altitude.

Base Outback: I can't believe the released an unannounced base H-6 Outback. That's incredible !
'bout time too...

-brianV

hypov · February 2003

a thought just occurred.
Base Outback with H6s. I think the assembly line for H4s has stopped for re-tooling or wound down, and they're churning up the H6s to close out inventory. Given that the H4 Turbos will be making their debute.
What do y'all think?

-Dave

lark6 · February 2003

Base H6 wagon a sneaky one, guess to be expected. Why 9 different Outback models (excluding OBS) is beyond me, however. How much lighter is it than a VDC or LLBean, such that power-to-weight ratio is improved?

I don't see it altering my current preference for the Forester XT or WRX wagon but I'm sure it will win over many others.

edit: Dave - I see this and the Baja as Subaru's last efforts to wring the most out of the current Legacy bodyshell.

Ed

sweet_subie · February 2003

How did we miss that ?

http://www.edmunds.com/new/2003/subaru/outback/100234104/prices.h- tml?tid=edmunds.n.mipmake.mippricetable..1.Subaru*

rsholland · February 2003

Build something new, and don't tell anybody? I don't get it...

Bob

hypov · February 2003

<<edit: Dave - I see this and the Baja as Subaru's last efforts to wring the most out of the current Legacy bodyshell.

Ed >>

Hmmm... I see.
But, the Baja is left out of this sudden appearance of H6s. Unless they are quietly plopping them in too.

-Dave

ateixeira · February 2003

Interesting theory, Dave. Why not use the H6s while they re-tool the H4 line for the turbo option? Baja and probably Legacy are getting those.

Is it just 9 Outback models? Seems like more. Audio, AWP, H4 Ltd, base H6, LL Bean, VDC. H4 Ltd sedan, H6, and VDC. Yep, 9.

They only need two - H6 base and H6 Limited. Drop all the others, including the sedan. Save the H4 for the base Legacy. GT gets a turbo standard.

Imagine how much they could save on tooling if they stream line like that? The H6 costs might be offset completely.

-juice

twrx · February 2003

Read about the base H 6 last week. Joe Spitz the salesman at that dealer out in Portland that keeps the "Cars 101" site devoted to Subarus had it up then. He is a a good source and he always seems to be very accurate with specs and features. Seems like the kind of salesman that really knows and likes the product.

TWRX

ateixeira · February 2003

Why'd you keep it a secret, then? You know we're always starving for info like that! ;-)

-juice

p0926 · February 2003

They might be expanding the H6 option to more of the Outback model line but it still isn't available with a manual tranny. Grrr.

-Frank P.

sweet_subie · February 2003

the reason for reverse marketing could be..........to sell as many VDC/LL bean as they can until people are fully aware that Base H6 is available.............

ateixeira · February 2003

Maybe they're ramping up H6 production, and aren't ready for the extra demand yet.

-juice

leo2633 · February 2003

I see they're offering the H6 Base Outback with two previously unavailable colors: black (previously available in Limited and up) and Titanium (monotone: previously available only in the H6 models). I really like the Titanium, though I feel it should come with the beige interior, rather than gray.

Len

leo2633 · February 2003

the H6 Outback has the automatic climate control (already mentioned previously) and the interior air filter standard.

Len

twrx · February 2003

uh forgot to mention it! (Hey remember who was first to find new Forester specs!)

tWrX

subearu · February 2003

http://www.imagestation.com/album/?id=4290640109

I've got all my autoshow pictures there, including the XT pics. The old links to them may not work.

-Brian

jimmyp1 · February 2003

really scare me. They are way too high. An accord will beat that in every way other than AWD by $2,000.00. Maybe that's why they didn't make a big deal out of it. I think the H6 in any base Legacy should be under $23k, and the 2.5t should be more powerful than Honda's V6 at $1k less. I just don't see Subaru drawing customers away if the prices aren't more competitive. That used to be their biggest draw for me. Now, they've developed SOME goodwill with me personally, but that only goes so far. Enough rambling.

Jim

P.S. Brian, I tried to thank you for the pictures in your guest book, but I just activated my account with imagestation and it gave me a little trouble with some code before I could submit my post, so....thanks! You covered just about everything, it looks like.

sweet_subie · February 2003

1. AWD option should be worth at least 1500

2. OB is much more versatile than accord, so no comparison there - like cargo space, roof carrier, heated package, 4 wheel indep.suspension etc. should add upto 2k easily.

3. Honda Pricing is very tricky, try buying one for less than 2k than OB H6 !

rsholland · February 2003

rsholland · February 2003

I just realized that the base H-6 Outback wagon is the only 2003 H-6 Subie that doesn't come with OnStar!

Bob

jimmyp1 · February 2003

but, Honda's V6 has 240 hp, and the car in general is contented much better than the Subaru and costs less, something I never thought I'd see. To me, Subaru's biggest lure was price, and the AWD was a huge 'bonus' if you will. Sure, AWD still is of significant value, but not as much as when I used to live in the mountains of Colorado, so Subaru should be careful of demographics like me. I had heard that Subaru saw the South as their biggest opportunity for growth, and I'm sure that's true, because up until a few years ago, they sold virtually zero cars here. It's easy to improve on zero. But I'm just not convinced that AWD alone is enough. I believe they need to be cheaper. I've owned Subarus (or my family has) since 1983 (with the spare in the engine compartment!

), so don't think this is coming from someone who isn't enamored with the brand. I truly feel like I am seeing something that isn't very wise.

Jim

sweet_subie · February 2003

Also note this: You can;t just compare MSRP's......Sub OB you can buy for 1,500 below MSRP. But Accord you can't.

And if you add the features in Accord compared to the ones in OB, you will see Accord prices skyrocketting....

I love the 4-wheel indep. suspension in OB, very comfortable....Accord does not have that...

And, frankly, i hate maxima, altima, camry & accord ballooing in size every year....Camry looks like a boat to me ! There is a concept of usable space.....take MPV for e.g, the space is unbelievably utilized though van size is small & Nissan sedan's the opposite - so huge but not adding a whole lot to usuable space.

hondafriek · February 2003

I am in a Subaru by default if you will, I had owned two civics and 5 Accords before owning my GT wagon, the only reason I bought Subaru was the lack of Accord wagon.

  But I have to be honest I will never go back, the Subaru is more quiet,more refined and better riding than any of the Hondas that I owned, the AWD is more than icing on the cake,after having it it would be hard to go back to FWD,slipping and sliding all over the place on ice and snow.

AWD is also better handling in the wet so it is not just a car for the snow belt, I also think because of the way the Subaru is constructed it is a safer car than Accord.

I also like the fact that the Sube motor has lots of grunt at low RPMs, we all know that Honda motors are screamers there is very little grunt in Hondas below 4000, RPMs.

  And last but not least in this area anyway used Subarus have more retained value than Accord or Altima.

  So to sum up there is a hell of a lot more difference than just dollars and cents when comparing cars IMHO.

Cheers Pat.

jimmyp1 · February 2003

let me come at it from a slightly different direction. If you can get a Legacy L SE for around $20k at Fitz-whateverit'scalled, why on earth would an unimpressive H6 be $6-8k more? I've always viewed Subaru's H6 as a poor stop-gap measure. I think pricing should go something like L-SE for $20k, Base OB H4 for $21.5k, Legacy GT H4 2.5t (210-225 hp) and OB H6 (212 "old school" hp) for $23k, Limited-contenting of both of those for $24.5k, MAYBE a little more. Then, bump the hp up a little for the H6 and H4 2.5t in MY 2004-05 to something above Accord #'s (that was just a random comparison, by the way), and maybe you can start talking about $26-27k. I just went and did a bit of online Honda shopping, and found 350 2003 Accord V-6 SE's for $26.8k all day long, and that's the internet MSRP, with a button saying "contact us for our internet price". (No thanks).

So, to reiterate, I think the prices are simply off by a couple thousand, and it will probably end up showing in the street price by 2004.

Jim

sweet_subie · February 2003

this is an interesting perspective ! It is hard not to agree with you on this !
if h4 is 20k, why should base H6 be 7k more ?

hondafriek · February 2003

I also find it hard to disagree with your point of view, and that price difference is exactly why the H6 has been such a slow seller, BTW. it is possible to find the H6 heavily discounted.

Another way of looking at it is, the pricing also shows what a hell of bargain the L SE is in the overall scheme of things.

Cheers Pat.

p0926 · February 2003

First off, let's clear one thing up, the H6 alone does not cost 6-7k more. I did a quick check on Edmunds and you can't do a true apples to apples comparison (features wise) of the H6 vs the H4 to determine what the true difference in price is. However, the H6 Outback vs the H4 Outback Limited shows the H6 is about $2k more than the H4 ($26,7 vs $24,8) with the H4 Limited only having a slight advantage feature wise. So while I agree that the H6 is a little over-priced (by about a $1k) the bigger issue is that $4k is a heck of a lot to pay for leather and a cold weather package considering you can get a Legacy L SE for $20,7k. Okay, you get a few more things with the OB Limited but still, $4k worth?

-Frank P.

cusafr · February 2003

You know, I am looking at buying a Subaru in the future because of factors such as a great AWD, reliability, value, etc. My biggest problem is trying to determine which is the better vehicle for the money, driving, power, etc. I guess choice is good, but for me there are too many. I would like to see about 3 or 4 choices with distinctive differences and understandable reasons why to purchase one over another.

A future Subaru (don't know which one) owner,

CUSAFR

Subaru Crew - Future Models II

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