Edmunds dealer partner, Bayway Leasing, is now offering transparent lease deals via these forums. Click here to see May lease deals!
Options
Popular New Cars
Popular Used Sedans
Popular Used SUVs
Popular Used Pickup Trucks
Popular Used Hatchbacks
Popular Used Minivans
Popular Used Coupes
Popular Used Wagons
Comments
During the break test at inspection station (normal conditions, no ABS engaged)it was found that breaks on my Pont Bonneville'92 are working only on Left front and rear Right wheels( though still providing sufficient deceleration).
I'm trying to understand if it could be somehow related to ABS or is just a regular breaks problem(like master cylinder or air/water in the system?). My breaks are having a "low pedal" syndrome, but at the moment when ABS is engaged pedal stays high while vibrating till car stops. Sometimes after that the "low pedal" syndrome disappears for short time, but it happens very intermittently.
This days everything is covered with snow here so I had a chance to see ABS in work (though i do not know if the car still stops with only those two wheels)
Let Me ask you another thing: in conditions when you apply the break pedal and ABS is engaged, does ABS only provide modulated anti-pressure to prevent locking, or it is also provides positive pressure along with your foot stepped on pedal?
Regards,
ayrat
The only problem I have with it is something strange in the electrical system. I have all maintenance records about the car, and the battery and/or alernator have already been replaced 3-4 times.
Last month, I stopped the car for 5 minutes, then couldn't start it again. Dead battery. Battery replaced, car is fine again. However, I notice on the voltmeter that the voltage (around 13.7V normally) drops sometimes down to 8V, specially when the engine is idling. Using the blinkers will also induce a small drop.
It seems to me that the voltage regulator is bad, but somebody told me it's included in the alternator, and this one has been replaced several times.
Does somebody have any idea or advice ??? I plan to go to see some Pontiac dealer, but I am afraid of what they can do, apart from swapping the alernator again...
Thanks !
-Fred (fvecoven@eng.sun.com)
ABS responds to impending wheel lock-up by 1: energizing the isolation solenoid to the affected wheel's brake, isolating it from the master cylinder and preventing any further master cylinder pressure increase from reaching that brake, then 2: if necessary (usually is), energizing the dump solenoid to reduce pressure at the affected brake, allowing the tire to regain traction. It does this 12-15 times per second, which is the pulsation/vibration you may experience during an ABS event. What any add-on ABS system absolutely CAN NOT do: 1: apply the brakes; 2: increase brake pressure to a higher value than the driver's input to the master cylinder via the brake pedal. I've read countless posts from misinformed individuals to the contrary, but that's how your system works. Front wheel brakes are controlled individually, rears as a pair for cost saving. BTW, if also equipped with traction control the system CAN apply the brakes to the drive wheels only, to reduce wheelspin. It also, if necessary, commands the ECM to shut down fuel injectors (up to 4) at one second intervals to reduce engine torque and regain traction.
As to the left front/right rear brakes, this is a function of the master cylinder only. Almost all front wheel drive vehicles use a diagonal split brake hydraulic system (left front/right rear & right front/left rear), to ensure at least one front brake will work in the event of a hydraulic system failure. Required due to the high weight bias on the front tires, and weight transfer when braking. It's also inviting trouble to drive a car with a defective master cylinder.
I have a 98 SLE with 74,000 miles that seems to be losing anti-freeze, they have had to refill at the last 2 oil changes and after about 1500 miles on the last oil change the overflow bottle is empty again. Nothing is obvious, no puddles in the garage, exhaust smells normal, and I believe nothing in the oil. I was wondering if anyone else has noticed this problem, or has a good place to start.
I went to different mechanics, pep-boys and sears
trying to get master cylinder replaced, but all of them were scared by the fact the car has ABS and recommended to go to dealer.
I just have a checkup for $105 with local dealer, and they said that problem is with master cylinder and powerbooster. (If you remember the problem with my car was that brakes are working on one diagonal-set and do not work on the other) They said that apparently there is an internal leak within the booster(?does the braking fluid go into the booster at all?) But why should it make working one pair of brakes and should not the other? I might be wrong but I thought the booster is just helping to push master cylinder's piston, thus affecting both lines at once.
The price was called $1073(mcyl$264 +boost$395 +labor$420)
Dealer said that replacing the master cylinder alone is not going to solve the problem, but he still can do it if I wish for $487( parts$264 +labor) Does this make any sense - what he said?
I can understand that there is a problem with the booster, but if it is not connected to the main problem, i wish to leave it there for now.
By the way checkup included the engine check, but he started saying that it is not safe to road-test the vehicle with this braking problems, thus
refusing to check the engine.
Regards,
Ayrat
just remembered that dealer told Me that changing a master cylinder does not require bleeding the whole system (he said - "bleeding the master cylinder alone can be enough"), but changing a booster does require complete bleeding.
Is this correct?
Regards,
Ayrat
As stated before, your m.c. is a diagonal split type, with separate hydraulic systems for l.f./r.r., and r.f./l.r. If there are no external leaks, the only possible cause of the low pedal and 1/2 of the system inoperative is an internal leak in the m.c. Not the booster. Not the ABS modulator. Not Jupiter aligned with Mars. The master cylinder. Regardless of what you've been told.
Re bench bleeding the m.c., any time the hydraulic system is opened up there is a chance of admitting air into the system. I've replaced more m.c.'s than I can count in 35 years in the trade, and sometimes have gotten away with bench bleeding only. Other times I've had to bleed the whole system. In any case, especially with ABS you should have the system flushed anyway to purge the moisture contaminated fluid in there (check "brake fluid flush - a needed service?" topic).
One final point, don't bother with a reman m.c. They're more hassle than they're worth, with a high failure rate. Find a competent tech to replace it, and spend the extra few bucks for a new unit.
BTW, does your m.c. have a plastic reservoir with a wiring connector to it, and a rubber hose going down to the ABS unit at the front of the car?
>BTW, does your m.c. have a plastic reservoir with a wiring connector to it, and a rubber hose going down to the ABS unit at the front of the car?
Yes, it has a plastic reservoir with the round unscrewing cap, wiring connector and rubber hose going down to ABS unit.
Does the price for $487 to change m.c and flush the system sounds reasonable?
Regards,
Ayrat
Master Cylinder - R&R
(Includes: bleed system)
1980-95
exc. T1000........... 1.0 hr
ADDITIONAL TIME:
w/ABS add............ .2 hr
So you have 1.2 hours labor at whatever door rate the shop charges. Doing a full flush and replacing all the fluid in the system might top out at another .8 hours if the tech takes a nap along the way. So 2.0 hours would be an absolute limit for labor. A new aftermarket master cylinder is worth about $60.00 Cdn. Call around, including a Pontiac dealer, to verify parts prices where you are.
If I'd been able to get $487 for every master cylinder I've replaced, I'd have a 100' yacht and be retired for 10 years by now.
Does the layout that you've mentioned (a plastic reservoir with the hose going down to ABS unit) make any steps easier/harder during the process?
sorry for asking too many questions.
Well, GM dealer's retail price for new m.c. is US$264 overhere, but on carparts.com I saw them much cheaper(do not know what brands are good, though)
Thanks again
Regards,
Ayrat
What I know is the computer command ride option also lights both ride types and I understand may be related. The ABS/traction control lights are not on all the time, but come on quite quickly after driving. The system activates in ABS mode when the system lights are off while parking the car, say backing into a parallel spot, going 2 mph.(you can feel it in the pedal and hear the "growl") It will then activate in traction control mode when "taking off", even if taking off consists of lightly touching the accelerator to adjust that same parking position. Obviously way over sensitive like my first wife. This is not a real issue as the lights seem to come on rather quickly after driving a short distance, and the system seems inoperable at that time.
I am suspect of certain parts of the diagnosis. I had the Pontiac dealer do a diagnostic check for a number of issues, as I was buying the car used from a Chevy dealer down the street. I wanted the ABS issue checked by a Pontiac dealer due to different electronics than Chevrolet. The Pontiac dealer that did the diagnostics found noise in the Supercharger among other things (I hear no unreasonable or obvious noise)and although this may be true, I don't think it needs $700 dollars worth of supercharger work. I wonder about the spindle and bearing assembly and will check that thouroughly myself, however, I do wonder if this could be causing my ABS issues. It would seem the spindle/ bearing would have to be quite bad to affect the sensors, and I cannot really tell of any problem. I already replaced the wire set as they recommended, which fixed a runability problem I had them check. Let's just say, with a half a dozen used Bonnevilles on the Pontiac lot, they may have been a bit bias on the diagnostics of the car from the Chevy lot?
Thanks,
Zzahh
The appropriate repair strategy would be to correct the WSS condition (the sensor output can be checked on an oscilliscope to verify it's signal to the processor, before spending $200+ on a sensor/bearing/hub), clear any stored trouble codes, then road test to see if any other codes reset. There may be a pressure modulator problem, but WSS faults can set a lot of "ghost" codes.
If, during a traction control event the brake pedal is depressed, the pressure switch signals the ABTCS control module to disable traction control and allow manual braking. The pressure switch is part of the Pressure Modulator Valve and is not serviced seperately.
Possibilities:
-circuit # 1659, control module teminal 13 to PMV connector 1, terminal 11, open or grounded
-circuit # 853, PMV connector 1, terminal 12, to TCC/ABS switch (at brake pedal) open
-failed pressure switch (or PMV internal switch circuit)
These systems use a mylar circuit board at the PMV to carry signals to the solenoids and switches. Due to repeated heating and cooling, the mylar flexes and cracks can develop in circuit tracks. I've repaired lots of them by paralleling a wire across the broken track, from connector pin to pin.
Zzahh
Last night my wife parked the car as usual and today when she went out to start it, it wouldn't start. The radio plays, all gauges and lights work including headlights and all, but when you turn the key, it doesn't do a thing. I tried juming it with no affect whatsoever and then tried to 'jump' the starter with a screwdriver. This started the engine with no problem (meaning I had plenty of battery juice) but it would not stay running. Is this a problem with the key chip? I removed both battery cables checking them for corrosion and being loose and they were fine. I went ahead and cleaned them to make sure and left them off for awhile thinking maybe the computer would reset itself if it was a key chip problem. I am thinking about running out to the store and purchasing a diagnostic reader (would like to have one anyway) to see what it might tell me. Anybody else have any suggestions?
It is going to take some hunting for sure, the system has been working properly on and off of late, however, it is also working at times it should not be. The idiot lights come on, they sometimes stay off. ABS / Traction control will kick in at a near standstill, causing the car to be very sluggish just starting out, or even cycling the ABS "growl and braking" without using the brake pedal. All of these occurances are at very, very low speed 1-4 mph. Or is kph up there in Canada?
Anywaya, thank you again sir. And I shall let you know of the eventual outcome.
I have SE badging, a high chrome-line in the plastic trim, the low-mount foglights, a deck spoiler, power moonroof, leather, buckets, floor-shifter, am-fm cassette with auto-seek and 6-way speakers and 6 way equalizer, gold-plated spoke wheels, (aluminum?) orange rear turn signals, and the single-opening in the grille, (no cross-shape). All factory stock.
Can anyone tell me if I can swap my rather boring plastic trim for the racier package?
A couple more questions. Car's got 127,000 miles on it, I've got this front suspension thunk going on that's getting worse. Seems to be mostly suspension related, but can be instigated if I zig-zag hard enough.
I was told my inner tie rods were bad when I got new wheels, so I've already replaced the inner tie rods. Any clues? Just struts loose or something?
Also have a weird sound that happens whenever I start cold, back up out of a parking spot, turn, and drive away. Sound usually (or maybe always) happens when straightening the wheel from the turn. Sounds like a 'whoonk' or a 'vroomp' or something. Only happens once per cold start and only occurs when turning in the one direction, (when turning the wheel to the right I think from a sharpish left.
Finally, anyone know if you can drop a 3800 Series 2 or whatever the latest of the 3800 line is under the hood of the '93? Any packaging / compatibility issues?
All of this may run into a bit of coin, not to mention the hassle.
Although I am quite sure you could install a series two 3800 in your car, there would be considerable issues to deal with most probably. Different computer chips and sensor packages, exhaust setup perhaps, hose configurations, etc. Again the cost seems quite scary, assuming you could find a long block and all the toys to make it work, without having to pledge your firstborn male.
Although the 3800's have a great reputation for long life, one must look at the value of the car first. A '93 DE with 127k on it, depending where you live, is probably not much more than a $4500 car, at best, assuming it is in good condition. It would seem that for the money you would have to invest in this car to arrive at your goal, your funds might be better spent moving up into an SSE or SSEI of a later model year. I think you would be happier. It would likely cost less overall, and when all is said and done, the ewer car will have a much greater resale value, not to mention the most important item, value to you. Consider this: Moving up will also likely move you down in the mileage department. Even with a newer, or new engine in the '93, everything else on the car is still 8-9 model years old and still has 127k on it. Trans, suspension (which you have noted is groaning a bit), switchgear, power windows, systems, etc.
Personally, I would drive the wheels off of it as it is, or git while the gittin's good and move into a newer ride. Less miles, more smiles long term.
Zzahh
There, I feel much better after venting.
A fix is being planned for the (not near) future.
bnormann
Host
Maintenance & Repair Message Board
hs
I know of a few others who have had gauge problems, including myself. My '92 would "spike" off the charts too when the rpm's got up just a bit over a fast idle. It was the gauge. Not to worry as long is it reads high, and not low. Might just be a coincidence that this happened in conjunction with your oil change.
Have fun, don't blow a gasket.
Zzahh
2. Grate komentz ahn spel chekeng!
Too much fun in auto-land. . .hs
PS Do you do brakes???
I come from a history of "serve yourself" folk. My father taught me all I know, including changing brakes. My favorite summers were those spent grease packing wheel barrings on school buses. Even as a career gal with fake nails, business suits and makeup - I am certainly not scared to get dirty.
The pressure issue on the Bonnie bugs me, though. I miss the old cars where you could pop the hood, spend a few hours and come up whistling. Now, you have to take them to have the computers analyzed and wait for the guy to speak kindergarten lingo (it happens with girls) about the repairs at hand.
If it is gunk up against the oil pump, would it be worth draining the oil again to see if it flushes out?
Dirty in IA . . .hs