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Because I love Mazdas so much, I would love to say that Mazda is a great company and just did this out of love for their customers...'fraid not.
Since this coil pack affected the emissions, they were required by federal law to replace it.
Not that I am slamming Mazda, but they are just like every other company and would not pre-emptively replace anything unless the customer requested it while under warranty.
It would be nice to find a company that does do that...just admit we screwed up and surprize their customers. They think it saves them money, but in the end it just hampers customer satisfaction. Would it be better to spend the $200 and have the customer keep coming back for their next vehicle? I don't know...not a marketing genius myself, but I know what kind of treatment I would like...and I digress. (Sorry for the soapbox!)
I often put things on this board myself that warn owners of what to look for on their particular model, and I am a representitive of a mazda dealer. That seems to work against me sometimes in here, but believe it or not, I'm only trying to help.
You've probably read the posts here and there about it. My 2000 ES, along with the Proteges and Protege5s of several other members here, has exhibited the "problem" of quite noticeable clutch slippage during the first few takeoffs after a cold start, especially on damp, cold mornings. One Protege5 owner (in Tennessee, Raymond?) actually had his fixed under warranty. I don't think it was the clutch itself but rather a revised pressure plate or something. Somewhere along the way I heard there was a TSB about it, but no recall.
Mine's been doing it every humid morning since day one, and my service writer told me way back when that it was a "quirk" of all Proteges and there was nothing wrong -- "even the Miatas do it." I must say it hasn't gotten any worse (or better); 71,000 miles later it did it this morning. But after two or three takeoffs in first it goes away.
Any help?
Meade
After about another 10 minutes I'll be gone until Tuesday morning. I'll anxiously await reading the results of your investigation!
Thanks again,
Meade
thank you for your reply. I was out of town and didn't see it until today.
The auto shop replaced the plug wires(before I post here) but the problem still existed. The car stalls after making a right turn. I did some investigations online(I know very little of car) and looked like it's probably caused by a bad coil. What do you think of it? Thanks.
My original post:
Report from Firestone on my 94 protege DX:
Ignition breaking down as engine heats up. suggest the following parts in this order:
1. coil
2. distributor assembly
3. computer
The onboard computer will not communicate with the diagnostic scanners.
Is it still repairable?
Thank you.
Have 2003 Protege LX with cruise so the bar for a Protege with cruise was ordered and received.
Problem is the replacement cruise bracket that was received appears to be the exact same bracket that is already on the car and the cruise actuator will not clear.
Bracket received is pn BJ0F-66-3BYB. Part number referenced on the instructions in section 4A is pn BJ0F-66-3AY. I assume I r'cvd the wrong bracket in the kit. Calling Rosenthal on Monday to attempt to resolve this. Any help/advice is appreciated.
Odd that it is a different part number from the Mazda install intructions.
Found this nice FAQ for Protege where I found out that Rosenthal is STILL sending me the wrong part.
He told me basically what rotarykid did ... that there is a TSB for an "updated" clutch disc, pressure plate, cover and flywheel.
No recall, just a TSB. And, as we all know, TSBs do not mean "freebies" necessarily.
My service manager pointed out that my car is WAYYY out of warranty (the warranty that covers the clutch, that is ... 1 year/12,000 miles). Yes, it is. I passed 72,000 miles yesterday. Now, I did comment to my service writer that my clutch slippped WAYYYY back when, like when the car was new, but the service writer back then made some kind of passing remark like "Oh, they all do that," and I, having owned a '92 that did it too, merely accepted that answer. So the "complaint" never made it to paper.
All that said, here's the deal. The service manager told me that the parts I have on the car right now are not going to wear out any quicker than the new stuff -- i.e. the TSB solves the cold-takeoff chatter only; my current clutch isn't substandard as far as longevity is concerned. HOWEVER -- the current clutch does have 72K of wear on it (er, should I say, "off it").
So ... he's made me a deal, and since I am planning on keeping the car another year or two at least, it might be a deal I can't refuse. He has offered to install the "updated" clutch disc, pressure plate, cover and flywheel for the cost of labor only -- and his "internal" labor rate at that -- of $303. Mazda would eat the $455 in parts.
If I don't get this job done, my present clutch could last me another 30,000 miles, or not. Clutches are very sensitive to how they're treated, and I treat my clutches well. I've never had to replace a clutch, and my last vehicle -- a Mazda pickup with a manual tranny -- still had its original clutch when I traded it for the Protege at 114,000 miles.
But whenever my clutch DOES wear out, I'm looking at a $600-$700 job if I go through the dealership -- and correct me if I'm wrong, but just replacing a worn-out clutch doesn't give you all the new stuff Mazda's installing in this TSB. Taking my SM up on this offer would give me a new clutch and the other parts, and no more clutch worries ever, for half the price.
Do I feel slighted at all? Yes, I do. But am I also a resident of the Real World and know when to stop whining and accept life's little poo-poos? Yep.
Think I'll take Mazda up on their offer. Compared to not pursuing it at all, this will save me some big bucks come clutch time.
And Raymond -- you've got far fewer miles on yours, right?
Time to press the issue!
Meade
P.S. I'm still hesitating to call this a "problem," Raymond. Since the chatter has never affected my ability to use the car in any way, I'd be more apt to call it an "annoyance" like a rattle. Let's not get into wordplay, OK? I've still had a very reliable car for 72,000 miles. And now I'm getting a brand-new, updated clutch for half price. This looks like a win-win since I got a pretty good life out of the original clutch already!
I like the gearing and feel of the Protege manual tranny and clutch better than that of my previous '92 Honda Civic. The Civic hydraulic clutch felt overly light when disengaging. Also, the lower gearing of the Protege over the Civic sure helps when pulling a trailer up a hill. Yesterday I was climbing a steep gravel road and needed 1st gear and 4-5K RPMs to make it up. The old Protege pulls strong and still gives me 28-30 mpg with the trailer and ATV behind.
Dammit, I wish I knew what to do! I'm leaning toward spending the $303, just for the sake of the fact that I might wind up keeping this car for a long, long time, and a new OEM clutch & flywheel for that kinda money is a steal!
Meade
Quirk or not though, I feel it shouldn't be there. Having driven upwards of 20 manual cars and never feeling anything like it just doesn't make sense to me. Geez, for the first 12k miles I was convincing myself it was my bad driving. But for some reason it only happend when I was driving the P5 and not the Civic. That seemed strange but I had to believe it was the case. Then I started reading that it seemed to be a noted 'problem' (lol), and I tried to do something about it.
If anyone remembers, Mazda actually paid for my rental car so I could leave the car at the dealer for them to test. They never said they would pay for a fix, but they paid for that much anyway. Then of course the dealer didn't notice anything. Guy was a putz, I could feel it in the passenger seat yet he claimed he felt nothing. The manager drove it later, but of course it was afternoon and it wouldn't do it then. At that point I gave up.
So what we have here is, Proteges have not "developed" this condition at some point after purchase ... this condition has been a part of the car when they've rolled off the assembly line. I would almost prefer to call it more of a design defect than a problem, but again, echoing what I've said before, I don't know if it deserves the term "defect" any more than the strange, undesirable pulsing you get when you stomp on the anti-lock brakes in some vehicles -- it's a characteristic of the system, and even though some people may find it offensive and "not supposed to be there," it has no bearing on the effectiveness or longevity of the brakes. Similarly, the cold/wet-start chatter may just be part of Mazda's design of an otherwise stellar clutch/flywheel system. Who knows?
So if this condition has been a result of Mazda transmission design and has been a part of each and every car as they've rolled off the line in Japan, AND it's a condition that does not affect clutch life or operation, then is it a problem? And if we customers decide at some point down the road that we don't like this *inherent* characteristic of the car, whether it's "supposed to be there" or not, does Mazda really owe us anything, other than a reminder that we had every chance to choose a car more to our liking before we signed on the dotted line?
If Mazda's designed an update, great! And they're going an extra step to help us get our cars modified? Outstanding! Think many other manufacturers would do this? Keep in mind this is not a recall!
Meade
So when I signed on the dotted line, I never expected that to be part of the car. It wasn't on my papers anywhere. And I didn't notice it until months after my purchase. My wife drove it as her car for the 1st year or so and I only drove it occasionally. When I first felt it, I asked her about it. She told me she though it was her driving, which is what I thought about me at first. We realized it wasn't us.
So does Mazda owe me antying? No, everything works just fine and it really is nothing more than an annoyance. But having a clutch design problem that has lived through so many years is kind of strange.
And I guess I'd feel better about it if they weren't willing to fix it. Stand by it as a design characteristic and tell me it's fine.
Note: I am not implying anything about Meade's wifes nose. Nose Job simply used for making a point.
Thanks,
Meade
As far as a link to service bulletins etc., there are two reasons why I can't do it. 1) I dont know how to put a link in the post- - and 2)the sites I get my info from are secured sites by mazda and they do not allow me to do so.
So lets recap: You had/have a problem with your clutch chattering and/or slipping, you complained about it to your dealer when the car was under warranty, they blew you off, you lived with the problem and it doesnt seem to bother you, you ressurected the problem with your dealer and pointed out the repair info which I gave you, they are willing to pay for ALL parts and discount the labor, and you think I am trying to pull the wool over your eyes somehow.
I have the repair info right in front of me, it simply states "some vehicles may exhibit clutch chatter/judder when releasing the pedal under cold conditions. This may be caused by the flywheel and clutch cover surface materials causing a clutch chatter or judder during clutch engagement. The clutch cover and flywheel have been revised to correct this condtion." and then it goes on to give part #'s to order according to engine size etc,. That's all there is and there ain't no more. That info is actually NOT a TSB. It is what mazda calls "repair information" and is released only to the dealers(as far as I know).
Like I said in a previous post, I had only done this repair on a couple of miatas that had severe chatter on take off when cold. Those repairs came from a TSB, and the wording of that tsb was identical to the protege info as far as the symptom and the correction. TSB # 05-001/03 and it pertains to 2001-2003 miatas.
(You automatic owners keep in mind that the 5-speed Protege, unlike MOST cars, actually gets LOWER mpg than the automatic due to its higher top-gear RPMs. I did a side-by-side test at 65 mph with my local friend who has my exact same car, except in an automatic, a few years ago, and I was turning about 3,000 rpms at that speed compared to his 2,500, if I remember correctly.)
Meade
After receiving the correct cruise control bracket from Rosenthal Mazda the strut tower bar is now installed. Correct part is BN5W-66-3AY.
If you order a Mazdaspeed strut tower brace for a Protege with cruise control make sure you have the correct part before beginning the install.
When I went to lift the car to rotate tires last night I did not see any obvious places to locate the jack where it would not cause damage.
Need advice please.
No damage in four years so far.
Meade
That's the good news. The bad is that I traded it for a new Mz3. Not a good move. The Pro had a roomier cabin, bigger trunk, and most importantly much better brakes. Granted the 3 is sharp looking and fast, but on long drives I'd much rather be sitting in the Pro. Oh well live and learn.
Anyway there definitely is a fix available. If any dealer says no, that's wrong.
The noise is related to rotation of the wheel, almost as if there's a rough spot on the rotor or sometimes it's like a rubbing/skipping noise, but it only occurs at low speeds (it doesn't happen at too low a speed and not at high speed) and light effort on the pedal. I looked and felt around, but didn't notice anything out of the ordinary (other than that the caliper felt kind of "sloppy", but this might be normal...I'll take off my other front wheel and check the caliper on that side). It also doesn't happen when I'm braking in reverse. Strange. If it weren't related to the braking system, I wouldn't worry about it much. The pads are new and I had the rotors resurfaced about 2500 miles ago.
Any ideas of what to look for, and what it could be?
Also, I noticed some shiny, sticky stuff on the left-side boot of the steering linkage. I looked under there, and it appears some grease may have leaked out of the steering column. I haven't noticed any real problems with my steering wheel though. What do I have to worry about, if anything?
I haven't determined what's making the creaking/rubbing noise in the front-left brake assembly. Guess I'll ask the service dept to check it out when I have them replace the torn boots. In the meantime, I've got the front-left boot held together with some duct tape.
I'm not surprised. The ones in my '89 323 tore too, though not before 90k miles. I'm only at 49k miles on my '99 Pro.
Speaking of which, after I'm done with taxes and the weather gets better, I'm going to brush, prime and paint some underbody suspension components that are showing a bit too much rust for my tastes. Plus, some underbody coating got scraped off (probably in that gravel pit they call a driveway at the local cardboard recycling plant), so I'm going to replace that. Oh well, it's pretty good for a 5+ year-old car.
The brake noise is gone today, so I may have jiggled something back into place when I took it apart and reassembled it this weekend. Nothing seemed out of place. Inside and outside rotor faces seemed fine. Parts that should move do so and those that shouldn't didn't. A friend suggested perhaps a strut bushing was busted (it was causing noise in his 626), but that doesn't seem to be the case here.
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73,000 miles now, and I'm still in love with this car. I think I'll wait about looking at a new 3 until the Mazdaspeed version comes out -- what, 2005 or '06?
Meade
What are the symptoms of a worn-out clutch? I have about the same mileage as you and I've noticed that the clutch is a little jerky off the line.
-K.
As far as our cars are concerned, I believe the "jerking" you're feeling is the same thing a few of us have discussed here -- not a worn-out clutch, but something to do with the mechanics of clutch engagement. I plan to ask the guys at my dealership if I can see, or at least get an assessment of, my original clutch after replacement. I'd like to know just how much wear it has received in 73,000 miles of driving. Like I've said before, my '92 was doing fine with its original clutch when I traded it at 83,000 miles, and except for the Slaab, I never have had a clutch concern -- despite driving several manual-tranny cars quite a bit past 100K miles (1988 Hyundai Excel, 117,000 miles; 1994 B2300 pickup, 114,000 miles).
Meade
Zoomster's in the shop as we speak! And of course, as luck would have it, we're just ending a week of cold, wet weather (which is the ONLY time, of course, that the clutch "problem" shows itself), so I'll have to wait through at least a week of this yucky, sunny, 75-degree weather for some nice cold, rainy weather to see just how much of an improvement this new clutch, pressure plate, flywheel and throwout bearing are!
Meade
P.S. "Burnouts" and "speed shifts" in a ... '97 SENTRA??? LOL!!!
...
"GREAT." "JUST FINE." "LOTS OF WEAR LEFT."
I hope there's a LOT of improvement with this new one!!!
Meade
$302.50
I'll have a report on the important part -- how the car drives -- tomorrow morning.
Parts cost, from what I understand, was around $400. So figure $700 for a new clutch from Mazda, guys. (If you ever need one, that is -- read my previous post.) I'll have the receipt and some exact information tomorrow.
Meade
All ya gotta do is make a phone call or two.
But think about it. The clutch assembly is a fundamental part of your transmission. And you wouldn't put an aftermarket transmission in your baby, would you? When things get this complex, I'd rather pay 10 or 20 percent more for the OEM product -- for the very least reason that Mazda will stand behind it if it "slips" up! I mean, I don't want to lose my warranty because I MODDED the car!!! (LOL)
But make a few calls and find out. I may be way off in either direction ... who knows, there may not be an aftermarket clutch for the car and Felix's Tire & Tranny might have to buy it from Mazda anyway!
Hey Raymond, if you can work out the kind of deal I did, the Mazda parts will cost you nothing! Have your service manager call 804-378-0747 and ask for Bobby Snead (Whitten's service manager).
Meade
But as to aftermarket or OEM, well, I don't mean I'm thinking about buying from Bob's Clutches and Things. I'm talking about a quality clutch. They have to be out there. Mazda balances performance and price and puts in what works. But I would bet someone makes one that might be even better. Necessary, maybe not, but better, sure.
So all I'm really saying is, if it's $700 for Mazda to do, and $700 for what may be an upgrade in the aftermarket, then I'd think about going the aftermarket route.
Of course, since even the new Mazda clutch has a different part number than the OEM, I guess we're damned no matter what we do.
Meade
FP01-16-410-9U, "Clutch cvr"
FP49-11-500A, "Wheel, Fly"
B633-16-460A-9U, "Clutch Dis"
FP01-16-510, "Collar, Clu"
All of the above items were charged to "Warranty."
Here's what the service writer wrote on my order:
"Customer states chatter when letting clutch out, install S/O/P. Remove transmission and replace clutch assembly and fly wheel H0101XDX.
"Mazda goodwill to pay for parts. Customer to pay labor at $55.00 per hour at 5.5 labor hours."
And that's just what I did. 5.5 x $55.00 = $302.50. (By the way, my dealership's normal labor rate is $72.95 an hour.)
Now, the important part.
Of course, it was sunny and 70 when I picked the car up, and on the way home the car responded pretty much like it always did. If anything I noticed that engagements were a little smoother -- hard to describe. The car just felt smoother to drive.
The real difference came this morning. The day dawned sunny but cold -- 34 degrees at my house -- and dew was all over everything. It was damp! Yay, perfect clutch-chatter conditions!
I was a little nervous as I backed out of the driveway, wondering if the damned car was going to chatter anyway and I would have wasted 300 bucks. Well, I backed out into the street, put the car in first, let out the clutch, and ...
...
Smooooooooooooooth baby!!! No chatter at all. Every subsequent engagement was spot-on, textbook quality.
And this morning I had a little more time (and distance) to make some observations. Call me nuts, but I would swear the car runs more smoothly now. Maybe the clutch wasn't being held properly against the flywheel before? Maybe the tension wasn't enough on the old one when engaged and that's what caused the chatter? And therefore, with the new clutch plate held more tightly against the flywheel now, there isn't a possible slight amount of slippage or wandering on the flywheel that there may have been before? Whatever the case, it's buttah now, baby. I'm happy. The car's never felt like this before.
Zoomster and I are now looking toward that big 100K in the sky ... and we shall go on farther, my friends, in search of roads uncharted and out-of-the-way twisties!
Meade
raymond, there are plenty of aftermarket manufacturers that sell performance clutches for the Protege. do a search at you-know-where.
Meade