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I have been in the market for a small easily parked, reliable and low maintance vehicle for a few months, I live in Queens county and would travel periodically into Manhatten to work.
The choices have been basically the Civic and possibly a "New Beetle" which is based on the golf chasis.
The Beetle: Costs more, base aprox. $15,000 and change. A true head turner even in NYC. Great head room for size, less so in back seat but I am not a livery service, I don't care. Apparently can have rear seats dropped for increased storage. The Civic in this area always amazed me, it was kind of like a circus car that held 20 clowns. I read earlier in this discussion about the rig-a-miral one has to go through in I think the Passat, removing head rests and such to accomplish the extra cargo space.Same in the Beetle? Released in '98, has there been any known defects that were addressed in '99?Improvements? Hard to get the dirty details with all off the gushy hype.Also wondered if there is anyway you can put a bike rack on the Beetle. Looked one over the other day with my girlfriend and was at a loss as to where it would fit. VW's repair history and expensive charges are a little scary.Generally recieved as a good fit and finish car. The standard engine is a 2.0 liter and the turbo, oddly, is 1.8, ABS and AC seem to be standard...pricey extras on the Civic which features a 1.6 liter engine.
Honda Civic 3Dr/Hatch: Stripped bare,$10,000, 5 sp man, no power steering, AC is around $1,000 extra and dealer installed only...a kick back to the dealers for selling a low margin car I think. Broke with tradition and extended the body style an extra year with a revamped civic in 2001. The research I have studied says that buying the last year of a body style hurts resale as the car will look dated sooner...that is a strike against it. Engine reliability is legendary, and that is the leverage that Honda seems to be using on the public.
The "tinniness" of the Civic is also a concern. I was wondering if "Isellhondas" had a comment on the cost of a comparably equipped Honda vs a base Beetle?
Am I valid to have these concerns?
Now, back to the joys of VW ownership. Parts and service are a ripoff. I wanted to buy a section of exhaust pipe for my Jetta, and the dealer wanted $375 for it. Luckily, I found a knockoff for $40. I dont think Honda parts are particularly reasonable either, but not as bad as VW.
Another problem with VW is the "Varies Widely" approach to the US market. I dont believe anything I hear in the press about VW cars until I see something at the dealers lot. Ask the people who have been waiting 2 years for the Passat to get the syncro 4wd system while VW waffled on whether they were going to offer it. Or the people who waited for the TDI engine on the Passat because VW announced that they were going to offer it on the new Passat. At least VW only made them wait 1 year before saying they were not going to offer that after all.
I cant comment on the quality of VW or Honda dealers. VW dealers have had to suffer a lot to survive over the past 10 years, so many may not be used to providing the best service. On the other hand, Honda dealers overall score very low customer satisfaction according to JD Powers. Toyota is down there as well. Both Honda and Toyota especially took totally different approaches to cust service Lexus and Acura. An interesting perspective is provided by the book "Arrogance and Accords" The gist of this book, written by a former sales employee of American Honda, describes how a lot of Honda dealers were bribing Honda executives in the '80s to get good allocations of hot selling Honda cars.
If that wasnt long winded enough... Basically the Honda is more available and has predictable reliability, but the VW Golf IV has a much improved sturdiness to it, and lots of useable hatchback space.
This has the crash test results for small cars from the insurance institute. The Golf is now 2nd from the top. The top spot is the Beetle (?) The Civic is still no slouch in the number 3 spot.
it uses a bit more gas but at the same time, u get more power.
i'm not a big fan of honda's. they're reliable cars, but who says vw's are not.
i prefered the golf GL(new body) and so i bought it.it's got great handling, interior is good and it looks good.
or is the Honda going to beat them at the game?
golf has abs, 4 airbags, cruise, power heated mirrors, windows, and locks (we're talking gls) and is my preference. i understand there may be more maladies and dealer difficulties (i actually had a wonderful honda dealer) but liking the car better may be worth it. none of the above- mentioned options are available on the civic hatchback.
hope this helps y'all.
:-)
Yesterday, I bought a new Golf GL. I really don't think you can compare the two . . .other than being hatchbacks. The Golf is bigger, nicer, more comfortable, more refined. I just hope it holds up as well as my little red Civic did!
Next year I may get a new Golf TDI. My brother has a 1996 Passat TDI that he absolutely loves. I just like the thought of a bulletproof diesel engine getting me around. I was sold when I visited Canada and most of the taxis in Montreal and Toronto are Jetta diesels.
When my wife finishes med school we will be off to hopefully buy a Golf TDI (I have seriously dreamed about the TDI Golf since '94 when they were promised, but didn't show). For now, we are penny-pinching with a CX Civic hatchback.
- Mike
I had been lurking, reading posts until last Friday (The 23rd) When I drove down to Littleton here in Colorado and bought me a new car. I have driven a 1981 Honda civic HB for 10 years, it has 322,000 miles on it and only burns oil. No engine overhaul.
So you would think.. I was buying a honda. NOPE. Bought a VW Golf. To bring the Honda up to the same level of luxuries would have cost me the same or more than the Golf depending on who I talked to, it's smaller, and not nearly as fun to drive.
Why I am posting here though, Is I had to share my buying experience. I went to my local dealer first and told them what I wanted. They could not find the car on their lot but searched the other dealerships. In that process, they had me call another dealership to inquire about the colour of an interior. That dealer really wanted my business and put on the hard sell. I explained to them, I wanted to give the salesguy in Ft Collins (My City) the chance out of courtesy for his work. I explained I would show the same level of loyalty to him were the situations reversed.. But that's aside from the point.
I went back to the Ft Collins dealer and started talking money. They wanted 15,070$ for the car and this would be a plain 'ol GL model. I made a counter offer which they refused, saying there was no profit on the car to begin with. I upped my offer and asked them to put the 6 cd changer on the passenger seat, and I would install it myself. Again I was rebuffed... Here comes the moral of the story *laughs -- I lurked so long, I now write too much*
Perturbed I left the dealership. The following morning I went to VW's web site and got the names and fax numbers of all the dealerships within 200 miles. I Wrote ONE fax, with a to: field including all their names. In the fax I stated my price, my vehicle preferences and that my financing was already approved (I strongly suggest you get financing before you go to the dealers.. makes it much easier to deal with them). I then solicited counter offers.
GL's were hard to find, but I had a few bites and also some interest in the GLS'. I was about to come to terms with a GREAT dealership in Boulder Colorado (Gebhardts - Ask for Carrie.. tell her Theron sent you)for 15,025 including the 6 disk changer and I drove off the lot. Not much less really than Fort Collins, but I liked the service and how well she worked for me. Just as I was about to make the deal, I received another phone call from McDonald's Automotive Group in Littleton Colorado and they said, We'll give you the GLS, in the colour I wanted, for 15,723. I had to take it, a bit more in the end than I wanted to spend but I got more car than I needed.
So, to share my buying experience, it was my pre-financing and knowing my price range AND showing the dealers I was shopping that guaranteed me a great deal. I would Highly suggest using this method to find your cars.
Good Luck
Theron
(PS -- LOVE Honda's, but they really just aren't fun like the VW. I would though buy that new S2000 in a heartbeat if I could afford it... 240 horse from 2 litre 4 cylinder...Wahoo!)
thanks
I'm a first time buyer waiting in the wings....Getting tired of my 1986 Tempo, (okay, REALLY TIRED) and I'm ready to take the plunge. I definately want a hatchback and I have narrowed it down to these 2...
Unfortunately, my "able to pay this much" situation has prematurely helped me to narrow it down to one.
The Honda Civic Hatchback.
But, I test drove one .(The pretty much stripped bare version....it had
a/c 4 seats, manual transmission...and a steering wheel...) I was quite impressed with the room inside, and how it handled. It felt like a pretty solid car as well. And, these longevity stories that are posted here are very awe inspiring. (I'm proud of my Tempo lasting to 190,000 miles while still going strong....letalone 300,000!!!
I would have purchased the Honda I test drove... But, there is this one thing...that keeps nagging at me. It doesn't have an armrest in between the 2 front seats.(on the drivers right hand side) My girlfriend's car has that and frankly, I've fallen in love with having that there.
Does anyone know if there is a way...or maybe a 3rd party center peice that could be placed there in a Civic? Or...any other way to achieve this? I know the Golf comes with one standard, but...I just don't think affording a golf is an option. And, frankly...the expensive repair costs scare me a lil' bit. And, Hondas do seem to run for ever.
Any feedback on this one would be appreciated.
"enkidu98" just finished explaining how he bought a 115hp car for $15,700 because he loved the CD changer. He didn't talk about all the options he got but I bet you a Civic EX w/127hp is comparably priced (or less) with similar options. Or take the Civic SI for around $17.5K with 160hp VTEC engine, 4wheel disks, 15" alloys, sport suspension, etc. etc. In my experience Civics can go longer than VW without problems. At my last job there were 4 golfs and about 10 Civics in the parking lot and all we did was talk about cars. The VWs had far more problems than the Civics that I estimate at about 5:1 ratio. There were not major mechanical problems but many little things that found them at the dealer or local garage more often than they liked.
The worst I 've seen it was my brother-in-law's '88 Jetta. The engine's head gasket went at 160,000mi so he fixed it (cost mucho $$). This isn't too bad because I 've seen Civics with head gasket problems at around 200K mi. too, although rare (depends on how much you beat on the car). About 4 months later the Jetta started losing power and smoking a lot. They found a crack in the engine block! and the $600 for the head gasket went out the window!
Just because the Golf is German it doesn't make it better. I like its new style much better and believe that it's more fun to drive. Civics usually have average handling although road feel has gotten better and the ride softer with the new generation.
The Golf though is too pricey for only offering a 115hp 8V engine and it's almost a foot shorter than the Civic coupes. The GTI-VR6 is probably a car to consider but at $23K sticker, I think it's the 2nd smallest most expensive car in the planet next to the Miata. Too much $$, compared to other good Japanese alternatives like the Integra or Civic SI.
'06 Civic LX coupe
'11 BMW 335i coupe xDrive
'13 Honda Accord sedan (wife's car)
The head on my religiously maintained '88 Integra warped at 64k miles. The mechanic (at an independent Honda shop) told me they see a lot of that on Civics and Integras. The cooling system is, as he put it, "barely adequate." That's after the A/C failed twice, the radiator sprung a terminal leak, the drivers side door handle came off in my hand, and every piece of interior trim decided that rattling would make my driving experience more fulfilling.
One of my co-workers had an '88 Integra. 15 k after the Acura dealer replace the timing belt, it snapped. The estimate for repair was greater than the value of the car.
It also sounds like '88 might 've been a bad year for Integras :-)
I didn't start buying Hondas & Acuras till '90. Before that it was mainly american (what a mistake) My commute is 160 miles a day and have put a total of about 360K miles on 3 cars since 1990. (not counting my wife's other Japanes cars). The most expensive repair I had was an alternator.
Honestly though, if I had to replace the head at 64K mi. I wouldn't buy the same Make again either.
The trust would be gone.
(are you sure it wasn't 264k mi? just kidding)
'06 Civic LX coupe
'11 BMW 335i coupe xDrive
'13 Honda Accord sedan (wife's car)
In any case I find it interesting about your cooling observations. My GSR's temp. gauge does not move a hair even when it's redlined all the time. I never noticed my '95 LS get hot either - never. Did you flush the cooling system at 30K miles?
'06 Civic LX coupe
'11 BMW 335i coupe xDrive
'13 Honda Accord sedan (wife's car)
My girlfriend's integra doesn't get hot but you can see slight fluctuations on the temperature gauge, as opposed to my golf, like your car, it doesn't move a hair either. It might altogether be different cooling systems, maybe a different type of thermostat who knows. I know that the Germans always like doing things their ways when it comes to cars, for instance when I turn off the ignition on my Golf a few seconds later you'll hear the fan come on. It never does that on the Integra.
When I told them I owned an Integra they all said they wished they had the cars that we get here and that they had read about the Integra which I believe only sells in Asia, US, Canada and South America.
I told them I felt the same way about the 160hp Civic and other cars. The SI had not been introduced in the US at the time. Over there they also get 1.6 and 1.8L BMWs mainly because they 're taxed on the displacement of their engines.
I did see a lot of VWs and Golfs. German, French and Italian cars dominate the European market, although there is a good amount of Toyota, Nissan and Hondas but they 're probably the minority. There are also a couple of Ford models like nothing we 've seen here, designed and built in England. Truly different world over there, even the automobile one.
'06 Civic LX coupe
'11 BMW 335i coupe xDrive
'13 Honda Accord sedan (wife's car)
My best bud was the most loyal Honda owner, had an '86 and '92 Civic Si HB. However, when it was time to get a new one, there was no replacement available (1998). So, he looked at a 1996 GTI and bought it and is happy. He dislikes the newer Civic HB ('96 up).
I've had an 1989 Civic DX HB for 10 years and have loved it! But, I'm ready for a change and am excited about entering the VW world for awhile.
I have spent the last few days lurking around and reading ALL of the postings about Civics and Golfs here and elsewhere in an attempt to add to my next-to-nil knowledge about cars in general. I had (past tense) a 91 Nissan Sentra which has slowly been deteriorating in terms of the interior (windows stick and need Herculean force to open and close, the side mirror on the right fell off a while back never to be seen again, the sun visor thing is in tattered pieces, the upholstery soaks up stains) but in spite of all that the engine has held up well over the last 9 yrs and 130,000+ miles. That was until I was plowed into by a bigger car that left my car in a crumpled heap.
Okay, so now, I'm looking at hatchbacks, and am
*still* undecided after having read hundreds of postings on both VWs and Hondas. I am leaning toward the Golf for aesthetic, performance and safety purposes, but the Honda is appealing for gas mileage and for reliability. The Golf seems to yield good gas mileage for sticks, but I'm in the SF bay area and have never driven a stick, and I'm very very scared of tackling the SF hills as an inexperienced stick driver. I am also looking for A/C and other (what I consider basic) perks.
I am waiting for info from you knowledgeable and kind folks on this.
Much obliged-
Sunny
So, get out a piece of paper and list what you want in a car. Then compare your list to what each car does for you. If you are like most consumers who really get into the pros and cons of the cars they're considering, you'll draw up your list, see which car comes out ahead and then they say, "Darn, I really wanted the Golf!" Others will say, "Darn, I really wanted the Civic." And bingo, there's your answer!
carlady/host
Which is a better vehicle? More safety features in the VW but economically the Mazda is the better deal.Maybe with the money i save I can buy the 2000 Golf GLS. You negotiate a great price on a car you would like second. Isn't it about getting what you want as much as what you can afford.
Check out Fred's TDI forum for info:
http://www.ufies.org/~fred/forums.html
carlady/host
But...at 60mph, the engine revs over 3200rpm. Can 5th gear ratios be changed as an option from the factory? aftermarket? Any suggestions?
The VWs have a different feel than Hondas, with some pluses and some minuses. I suggest that you test drive both to decide which YOU think is more fun to drive. What I like may not be what you like.
jtm
Also, would be interested to know what fuel economy you're getting. I've heard 50 mpg highway.