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Also my dream car (if released here in the states) will be VW's 330hp all wheel drive rally six speed Golf. That's something that has been in the works now for the past couple of years. We will see though............
Also, if you live in Houston you should drive up here to Euless on the weekend of the 15th in July. There's going to be a pretty good car show for VW's. There will be a little something for everyone............
qword, damn you. Just when I'm really falling in love with my GTI you bring up a 4Motion 6 speed rally VW. I'm drooling like Homer Simpson over a dougnut.
Is there a website for this festival? Feel free to email it to the address on my profile.
You guys all sound like you have way too much fun with your cars. Anyone care to recommend a good steet/track driving course for a newbie? Thanks!
Show me a stock VW VR6 that has beaten a Type-R in the same stock class.
I 'm talking SCCA G-Stock class. The Type-R rules, period. Stock GSRs do pretty well against the VW VR6s too. Once you get into modified classes anything goes. Usually it's the little CRXs around here that kick everyone's butt in the various modified classes and that includes many modified Golfs and GTIs. I participate in 5 different auto-x clubs in NY & NJ. I don't think I 've ever seen any VW come first in its class or win any trophies. I 'm not putting them down. Some do pretty well in the modified classes but there is always an old Civic or CRX grossly modified that gets the best times in those classes. In the stock classes the regular Golf competes with Neons and Civics. The Neon R/T and ACR (special edition & limited production auto-x Neon) usually kick butt because they 're better hanlding cars than Civics and Golfs, stock.
Now if no Neons showed up, a stock Golf will probably win against stock Civics by a very small margin (drivers been equal).
qword: I was referring to the new Golfs. If you look at the "New Cars" section of Edmunds, you 'll see that all Golfs weigh between 2760 and 2900lbs!! My Civic hatchback weighs 2258 (it's in my registration) or around 2300 as Edmund's states. Yes, a Civic Si is exactly 2600lbs but that's still much lighter than a base Golf or about 300lbs less than a GLS or a VR6.
115hp may be adequate for a 2200-2500 (but nothing more than that) but nothing heavier. In my opinion they should 've dumped this engine or tweaked it to get another 15hp or so to compensate for the weight increase.
'06 Civic LX coupe
'11 BMW 335i coupe xDrive
'13 Honda Accord sedan (wife's car)
Maybe you meant to say flat torque curve? Which the the Hondas have plenty of but it just doesn't get too hight. A Civics and Integras torque curve stays pretty flat from 3K to 6.5-7K RPM! Where the VW's torque curve peaks at around 5K and then drops fast! VWs do get more low end torque which helps in auto-x because of the slower speeds. But I doubt a 90hp car produces more torque or more lower torque than the 128ft-lbs of torque in a GSR. The GSR has plenty of low end torque and you 're almost never at 2K RPM in a GSR auto-xing! The GSR does maybe 10mph at 2K RPM in 2nd gear. I 've never found myself at 2K RPM when auto-xing. Always above 4K. And if I were to find myself doing 2K rpm I 'd downshift pretty darn fast. Also, at 4K RPM (or higher)in 2nd gear the GSR will accelerate much faster than an '84 VW and most of the cars on the road for that matter.
'06 Civic LX coupe
'11 BMW 335i coupe xDrive
'13 Honda Accord sedan (wife's car)
Of all the comparisons about performance I am amazed that there has been little mention of tranny differences. This is really the only area that I really miss my Civic(manual). My current transmission, you have to ALLOW the shifts to engage, whereas in the Civic you could MAKE them happen. I still miss shifts after 3 months of Golf ownership.
The Golf may not scream performance like some of the Hondas/Acuras, but let me tell you, my old bones sure enjoy the ride(as well as not having to climb in and out of the seats anymore).
'06 Civic LX coupe
'11 BMW 335i coupe xDrive
'13 Honda Accord sedan (wife's car)
But what good is all that torque at the low end if the car can only go to 60 in 10.4sec? It probably has decent acceleration (can't even see that weighing 2800lbs with only 122 torque) to 30mph but after that it looks like acceleration rate drops and it's a slow climb to 60mph. My '98 Galant weighs just a few lbs more (2850)than a base Golf and has 143ft-lbs of torque.
You need a nice long flat torque curve in the higher RPMs as well (this makes more HP mind you and improves acceleration) to make the car move half way decent. I had a '90 Geo Storm with 95hp and 97ft-lbs of torque that went to 60 in 10s flat. Hondas and Acuras maintain most of their peak torque all the way through roughly 6-7K RPM (depending on what model we 're talking about) which is what makes them fast. They pull nicely all the way to redline where the Golf start losing steam and its torque starts dropping fast.
Of course this also due to the VTEC technology in all Hondas. Even a base Honda with 106hp and 102ft-lbs of torque uses a milder version of VTEC technology ('96-00 models).
Now if the Golf weighed between 2250-2450lbs like your Civic CX/DX/LX/EX, 115hp and 122ft-lbs of torque would probably be more than adequate and would most likely make it a full second faster to 60mph and improve acceleration in general.
The car is just too underpowered for its weight with today's standards.
'06 Civic LX coupe
'11 BMW 335i coupe xDrive
'13 Honda Accord sedan (wife's car)
I 'm not arguing that VW are not good auto-xers. They 're good with some mods but stock they 're not that great.
'06 Civic LX coupe
'11 BMW 335i coupe xDrive
'13 Honda Accord sedan (wife's car)
I have a recently purchased Golf GLS 1.8t and it's great. Hondas are cool but the Golf has a more "beefy" feel to it and I like that. It's heavier than the Civic (I think) but that's alright by me. People complain that the Golf has gotten bigger and heavier over the years but I think the size difference is an improvement.
Looking at Civics a few years back I was nearly sold on the sporty version (don't remember the model designation) but my heart sank when they told me it only comes with a sunroof. I'm too tall for those things. VW gives you the option of a larger engine and no sunroof with I appreciate. They also allow seat height adjustment which as I recall the Honda didn't have.
It all comes down to what you want and is it available.
carlady/host
- engine fan gone (bearing actually, but you must replace everything) $400
- driver door lock gone: $150
- ignition lock about to go out: $450 (cause they have to remove the airbag)
- rear door moulding came unglued $80
Add the normal maintenance and timing belt, and you get a hefty bill.
My point, and that's only mine :-), is that while I like the car (actually always wanted one back in Europe), I don't like the poor reliability. So as soon as I can, I'll sell it and get a Civic instead. It's not as fun, but it lasts longer. I can't afford to just go for looks anymore. By the way, according to the mechanic, the problems that I have are apparently frequent, so it's not just me.
Happy driving to all.
I agree with kurtb1, VW's and Honda's are Apples and Oranges. The Civic HB is very small. It would be better to compare a Civic HB to Focus ZX3. (I have not driven a new Focus ZX3, but from what I have heard they are a great cars. It is basically a Mazda, so quality should not be to bad. I'm still not sold on the styling or resale value yet.) I like that the VW comes in a 4-door version. Nobody else makes anything like it under 20k. The motor is a little under powered for a car of its size, but the motor puts out great power between 2500rpm and 4500rpm. I'm sure if we look at a dyno compared a to a Civic we would find that the 2.0L 8 valve in the VW produces more power in this area. Remember the Civic doesn't put a VTEC in the HB. (at least not since the '95 Si) Honda only puts a 106hp motor in the car. Which is made at a useless 6200rpm.
Your GSR is a nice car, but an ACR will crush it on a track. How do you like them apples? An ACR will also crush a Civic Si. I'm sure an ACR would crush a VW 1.8T too. So why is it that Honda doesn't make a car that will beat Dodge for under 15k? (I can here you now. Dodge doesn't make the ACR anymore. It will be back!!) Sure the Type-R is a nice car, but 26k for stripped down Integra. Give me a break. The truth is that the GOLF is a true Hatchback. The Integra is a fastback. Nobody makes a car like the GOLF. The things that make the Golf different are the things that people want. Good job VW. Thanks for listening to your customers.
Zorglub just compared his Civic HB and VW Golf which has half the miles of the Civic.
A stock Neon ACR will beat mostly anything out there but what's that have to do with what we 're talking about here? A good driver in a Type-R can beat a Neon ACR in SoloII auto-x, and will destroy it in Solo I on the track/road cource racing. I always liked the ACR and it was also limited production like the Type-R. But I don't understand why you bring a Neon up. I just got back from auto-xing this Sunday and I had M3s for breakfast. My GSR is also in DSP class (SCCA) because of the suspension mods and AEM CAI that I have on, but sometimes we go to BMW CCA and Porsche events. We kick major butt. Especially my brother's and friends' Type-Rs and VW VR6s (GStock) never come close to our times. Well they may have come within 2-3 sec. of us but that's it. And whoever paid $26K for a Type-R is not so bright. Most people pay sticker $24.8K My brother paid $24,300 for his '98 with A/C ('97-98 didn't come with A/C). It's not really that stripped down. All it's missing is the sunroof which I hate in my GSR because it robs me of headroom, and the leather seats, but I 'd rather have the Type-R seats which are much better than GSRs. You get a lot more for your money in the Type-R than the GSR believe it or not.
All they did was take away a sunroof, some leather and 35lbs of sound deadening material. Big deal. Type-R seats cost more than GSR's! Look what you get compared to the GSR: Bigger/better brakes, bigger exhaust, hand built engine w/25hp more, bigger rear sway bar, bigger front strut bar, reinforcement crossbar in trunk, reinforced chassis (with metal plates at various parts of the car), heavy duty bushings & suspension components, stiffer lower springs (.6"), better shocks, reduced weight, Limited Slip Differential, ultralight alloy wheels, underbody spoiler kit (retail $1,000). You get a true sports car with world class handling & braking.
When are you going to stop putting down everything that's not a VW? I 've always said that I like the VW 1.8T and the VR6 but for certain reasons I prefer to drive Integras and Civics.
A GTI VR6 is $23K+. For another grand or two I 'd rather drive a Type-R that will dance circles around a VR6, stock vs stock.
Have you seen the latest Motortrend '00 Type-R tests? 0-60 in 6.2s and 1/4 mi. in 14.8s, .92g skidpad. Although not as fast as a '99+ Mustang GT, it will outhandle it with no problems and will be much more reliable than a Ford.
Can you explain to me how you race for an auto-x team? All the auto-xers I know don't have "teams". Once in a while a car will have 2 drivers. Is that what you mean by a team? So you don't own the '97 GSR then.
You have owned a total of NINE Acura/Hondas and 2 VWs? Hmm. yet you like the '84 VW better.. with the bad brakes and the crappy steering? very interesting to say the least.. So since you know so much then you would know that a well modded 1,800-2,000lb CRX or older Civic is unbeatable in the CSP class.
'06 Civic LX coupe
'11 BMW 335i coupe xDrive
'13 Honda Accord sedan (wife's car)
TEAM- I own a third of the GSR with 3 co-racers. We pooled some money together and decided to buy a car. We never dreamed of getting a GSR within our price range. It is a ’97 GSR with a ton of character (dents) and 37k on it. It came with Skunkworks Coilovers, DC Sports header and Exhaust, some generic Intake, and a set of the ugliest chrome wheels. We added Koni struts, my old Skunkworks rear swaybar, and my used set of Kuhmo’s mounted on 15x7 MB6(heavy but lighter then chrome) rims. The car looks like hell, but also goes like hell. It is not nearly as popular at the track as the GTI. The GTI always amazes people with the times it posts. The courses around here are kind of between Solo I road courses and Solo II parking lot adventures. It provides a nice level playing ground for all cars. It is not to tight for the big fast cars and not to fast for the small slow cars. Both the GSR and GTI run right near the top in overall times. The GSR always edges the GTI, by about a .5 second. Not bad for a car that is listed at 90hp stock and no notable hp gaining mods. I have been to the nationals and seen how fast your 1st Gen CRX’s are. They are very fast on a small track due to their size. They are short in both height and length. They are extremely light and have a great little 12V 1.5L motor. The GTI is just to tall and long to compete with the CRX at that level. My first Honda was a ’85 CRX. I hammered on that thing and it took everything I could give it. My second Honda was a ’88 CRX Si. It was a classic compact car just like the ’84 GTI. I’m still pissed at Honda for dropping that car from production. It was one of the best cars I have ever owned. (30+ and counting.) Currently I’m driving a Nissan Sentra SE-R. It dominated the DS class until they made the bigger and heavier version in ’95 and that year the Dodge came out with the ACR. I plan on selling either the SE-R or GTI in the spring and buying a new daily car. Right now I have two in mind. Either a ‘01 Golf 4 door GLS 1.8T or a used Maxima SE (’97 or newer 5spd). I love the motors in both cars. The 3.0L V6 in the Maxima provides 1.8L VTEC type power at any rpm. The 1.8T makes 1.6L VTEC power at any RPM. Right now I’m leaning towards the Golf due to its versatility. I’m also leaning towards selling the SER since I can’t modify it without going into DSP. (I can’t run to cars in the same class.) Then again I might just run the SER in DS with a set of Kuhmo’s and see what I can do. Don’t get me wrong the Type-R is a good car. I just want more out of a daily driver. It would be nice to have one as a race car, but that is just a little to rich for my blood, plus our GSR will tear apart a Type-R on the track for about 15 thousand less. And I don’t have to worry about scratching it. Later.
The car has no A/C plumbing to interfere with servicing of the distributor.
A Golf 2.0 GLS here is about 30,000 US. dollars because of high import tax. But everyone who ownes a VW feel it's worth. Here, A VW's product is compared with a BMW, because of it's applearing(exterior and interior), and many parts that borrow from Audi. And a BMW 323i costs about 50,000 dollars in Taiwan. Therefore, some people buy a VW if he couldn't offer 50,000.
A SOCH V-Tech Civic (we don't have a DOCH si) with powereverything,leather seat, 6 Disk CD Changer, wood trim, alloy wheels,even VCD, radar alarm for parking, mobil information system includes e-map...is about 20,000. Because it's produced domestic, so it's much cheaper and still have good quality. It's realy saled a lots but I feel it is just like a reliable multi-function electric watch that can be bought in 3 dollars in Taiwan's nightmarket.
In my country, the best sales "compact" car is Nissan Sentra, the market is about 3 times than Civic, because of the MORE equipment, better appearing(Taiwan's company that produce Nissan car bought Benz, BMW even R-R for reference and redesign Sentra and Maxiam and very successful)
we also don't have a Intergue here, I have heared that is a great car, but I don't like its style. Accord is popular but is still defeated by Maxiam(We call it Cefiro). If young people want a speedly car, most of them will consider Impreza GT Tubro first, its tubo boxser engine with AWD make it 0-60 in 6seconds, and it's easy to update and reduce 1-2seconds. It costs about 31,000 dollars.
My car now is an 1994 Infinte G20 called Nissan Primra here. Its about 20,000 dollars when I bought in new, and it is even cheaper than a Toyota Corolla import from US.
Interesting..
'06 Civic LX coupe
'11 BMW 335i coupe xDrive
'13 Honda Accord sedan (wife's car)
Do you guys have at least a 22mm rear sway bar? (I know Skunkworks came with 20 & 21mm before making bigger ones, think they 're up to 23mm now). I 'd highly recommend a rear upper strut bar if you don't already have one. Neuspeed or Spoon make really good ones, stay away from the DC Sports one - very weak. But if you guys are winning races and trophies with the GSR, why bother?
You 're right about the Type-R. I wouldn't use it as a daily driver or commute with it. My brother doesn't either. I 'd only drive it on the weekends and race the hell out of it every spring/summer, which is what he does..
My '99 GSR is not my daily driver either. My '97 Civic HB is. The GSR lately has seen more
auto-x tracks/parking lots than regular roads.
The Type-R you must admit dominates the GS class and that 's why most ITR owners leave them stock.
A well modified GSR can beat a stock ITR, yes, but it will take at least what you have on your car, a really good driver and $$ dinero. Coilovers (at least 350lbs/F & 300lbs/Rear), adjustable shocks and a minimum of 22mm rear sway are a must when going up against a stock ITR (with racing tires). You will also need a set of good aftermarket brake pads for more stopping power. Remember the Type-R has Limited Slip so that's where the coilovers & performance shocks come in to play to counter that feature in the ITR. It would still be very hard for a GSR to beat a stock ITR with Kumho tires (like my brother has on) or any other racing tire (ITR remains in the GS class). But it's doable.
Have you ever driven a Type-R? or been in one?
My modded GSR still doesn't compare to it. The ITR has unbelievable brakes that are very hard to make them fade (unlike the GSR's) and with racing tires it feels like a go-kart! Braking is very important in auto-x for those really tight turns or 90deg. ones. There 's nothing better than getting a nice handling package right out of the box/factory. But if you can get a modded GSR for like $10K like you guys did, then I agree, work with the GSR..
What kind of spring rates are your Skunkworks coilovers? You have a pretty nice setup. I don't have coilovers but I have H&R Sports springs. The coilovers were mucho$$ but I 'm still considering Ground Controls for next year.
'06 Civic LX coupe
'11 BMW 335i coupe xDrive
'13 Honda Accord sedan (wife's car)
carlady/host
carlady/host
I think the DX has a tach, it's missing on the CX. My opinion is that hatchback buyers in general aren't looking for the extra goodies. Chances are Honda finds that people are willing to pay more for a sporty coupe than for hatchbacks.
But I'm with you, I like lots of equipment on my car. I use to own a 98 civic DX. It was a great car for what it was .. reliable, economical, and practical. But no A/C, no power windows, no sunroof. Long distance driving on hot days were the worst. Guess I was too cheap to pay for the dealer installed A/C (they were asking $1700 Cdn :-o).
Golf, there was none (plenty of other high dollar models but no Golf's) in stock and thought to myself if their having trouble taking my money now what happens down the road when I need parts and or service ? Went to a local Honda dealer and there were several Civic's ready to go, guess what I ended up with ? ((Not so good VW dealerships ?))
Rob Fruth - Houston, Tx
http://freeweb.pdq.net/rfruth
1981 Raleigh for commuting, errands & fun
1997 Trek 2300 for real fun !
2000 Civic DX hatch (no OEM tach available in US)
Sorry, couldn't resist, and before the flames come, it's all in good fun.
Saw your page - cool bike. I've got a Specialized Rockhopper that I need to use more. I'll check some of those links you have since I'm looking for a low key night riding club.
As far as model availability (VW TDI, etc.) most of the time the manufacturer has a predetermined # that they will build for each model. When the '00 Celica came out, Toyota announced that 69% of all Celicas will be automatic and that less that about 16% of all Celicas will be the GT-S model. They already have all that stuff figured out and planned out. I guess they look at previous year sales, trends, etc. and will adjust manufacturing for the next year if their figures are off.. I too had a tough time finding an Integra GSR only because 1 out of 8-9 Integras are GSRs. When I found a couple they didn't have my color, and so on..
And finally to repeat what I 've said before for the umpteenth time, this is not a fair comparison between the Golf and Civic HB because of the many reasons that have been mentioned.
'06 Civic LX coupe
'11 BMW 335i coupe xDrive
'13 Honda Accord sedan (wife's car)
We currently have the Skunk Works coil-overs. We are not happy with them. Do you know of anyone that runs H&R/Neuspeed Race Springs? Are they to hard? We don't trailor the car to events so would we be able to stand the stiff ride for 2 hours 1-way?
I don't recommend Racing springs for any street driving. They 're so stiff that when you go over some bumps, especially on a turn the car changes direction! The H&R & Neuspeed racing springs are way too stiff. The spring rates are 583lbs (F) and 450lbs (Rear)! Knowing how stiff my ride is now with the H&R Sports, I 'd never touch these springs.
The H&R Sports are softer but still a lot stiffer than stock GSR springs. H&R Sports are
276(F)/220(R). However I think for auto-x, if I had to do it all over again, I 'd get the Neuspeed Sports: Their spring rates are: 350F/280R. These spring rates are very similar to what most auto-x'ers order from Ground Controls when they specify the stiffness of the GC coilovers they 're buying. Your most common spring rate of an auto-xer with coilovers is 350F/300R. The Neuspeed Sports best matches this figure and they 're much cheaper than coilovers.
I know many people that have them as well as 2 Type-R's. My friend dropped his times by at least 1 sec. with the Neuspeed Sports on his ITR. My brother hasn't been able to come close to him with his stock Type-R since.
Anyway, if you must go with Racing Springs, go with Neuspeed again, only because I heard they have a little better ride than the H&R racing ones. I 'm a big H&R fan and love my H&R Sports, but I hear when it comes to racing springs, Neuspeed's are a little easier on your spine :-)
PS. This is actually no joke, I know one guy that after 3 years on racing springs, he 's having all kinds of back problems and there's something with 2 of his discs, not sure. Your spine takes a lot of pounding with Racing springs.
At least make sure you set those Konis for the softest setting on the way to the track.
'06 Civic LX coupe
'11 BMW 335i coupe xDrive
'13 Honda Accord sedan (wife's car)
even ridden in a Golf maybe need to ? Hey Rockhopper night riding, I can't believe how much good bicycle lightning costs ! Course cars
& the like come with a lightning system, wonder what that adds to the cost ?
Rob Fruth - Houston, Tx
http://freeweb.pdq.net/rfruth
1981 Raleigh for commuting, errands & fun
1997 Trek 2300 for real fun !
2000 Civic DX hatchback when I have to
Depends on if you want a hatch or a 4 door sedan, really. I have a hatch because the cargo space is pretty darn good, and that's why I picked the GTI over the Jetta. Not to say that you can't fit a lot of stuff in a Jetta, but I think the hatch is more versatile.
Also the Golf/GTI is a tad bit faster since it weighs less than the Jetta, but I'd say this isn't too huge of a deal for most folks.
rfruth:
Fortunately I have a friend that works at Bike Barn so I can swing some deals. I've got a 15w halogen headlight that I love - I never worry about cars not seeing me at night, although I try to avoid them when at all possible. I'm thinking about hitting the Village tonight for a quick beer - it's a good excuse for a ride.
Any opinions will be greatly appreciated.