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VW Golf vs Honda Civic

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Comments

  • economicaleconomical Member Posts: 1
    What's the most long-term-economical, small car to drive 40k miles a year? Under $10/12,000.

    What is your experience with 2000-2001 Golf tdi's vs Honda Civic's ? (Civic Si's, or Civic EX/GX since they, unfortunately, quit making the hatchback) Civic's get much better consumer ratings.

     I want an economical, no maintenance hassels, car. I'm considering a Golf tdi for conversion to vegi-oil. Apparently it costs about $ 850 for a 2 tank kit, plus installation and oil access. I'd pay that off very soon in saved gasoline, but 'm not comfortable reading about all the Golf tdi electrical, etc., problems.

    Am I better off buying a Civic Si, or Civic EX/GX and waiting for alternative fuel options to improve? (Will the Ford Focus ZX hold up at 200,000 miles? Many say no.) Getting an old '84 Mercedes 300 Turbodiesel suggests the mileage and wear and tear on that old dear would also be a maintenance headache.

    Prius, Insight and Honda hybrid's are too expensive just now. Especially with the $5000 battery replacement down the road. The first Prius also may have challenges on windy mountain roads and high wind bridges like we have here in the San Francisco Bay area.

    Tell us your experience!
    I'm sure many people would be interested.
  • pulgopulgo Member Posts: 400
    After considering new and used VW Golf TDI's, Toyota Corolla's and Honda Civic's I purchased a new 2001 Toyota Echo (in 2001). I am know at 100k miles, just replaced the front brake pads for the first time, the rear brakes are good for another 100k. The maintenance so far: 1) drain and fill of ATF (twice), oil changes every 10K (Amsoil and Mobil 1), just replaced drive belts. The radiator fluid was drained and refilled twice. New spark plugs (platinum) at 60k.
    The tires are still good for another year. No engine timing belts to replace since this motor has a timing chain. No valve adjustments have been necessary.
    The car was purchased for aprox. US$ 11000.
    The only repair was the horn (got some water in it and rusted). Got a new one for $ 12 and installed it myself.
    Would I buy the car again? You bet! There is no cheaper more reliable alternative out there in my opinion.
    The only cheaper option would be a little used Corolla, Civic or Protege.
    I am looking forward to the next problem-free 200k miles (at least).
  • fish8fish8 Member Posts: 2,282
    I'm sure your Echo is a blast to drive!
  • gee35coupegee35coupe Member Posts: 3,387
    I love that little car. I wouldn't mind a Yaris hatch. I just don't like the center mounted gauges. I used to be a Toyota man. You can drive those cars into the ground. My 1982 Toyota Tercel drive 200K with oil changes and brakes.
  • Kirstie_HKirstie_H Administrator Posts: 11,145
    A reporter hopes to talk with some new car owners who have considered buying Volkswagens but ended up buying something else.
    Please respond to jfallon@edmunds.com with a few words about your experience and your daytime contact info by Monday, November 1, 2004.

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    Share your vehicle reviews

  • pulgopulgo Member Posts: 400
    I get the point! :-)

    But if we are talking about inexpensive transportation, the Echo is tough to beat. My average MPG over the last almost 4 years is 41.9 and YES, that US gallons.

    You could, if you have nothing better do to, test drive both the Golf TDI and the Civic. Neither one of those is as quiet as the Echo. Neither one can touch the Echo when it comes to trunk space. Last week I picked up some friend from the airport and they had 4 big pieces of luggage and it all fit in the trunk with no problems. We were very close to overloading the car with four large people and their belongings, but that is a different story.

    The biggest shortcoming of this car is the seats that are not fir for long distance traveling. I fixed this by installing two Recaro seats and now it is a pleasure to drive.

    And when it comes to the geek factor, wow, unbelievable. There is no uglier car on the road but over time I have come to appreciate this car for waht it is, an extermely echonomical and reliable appliance used for personal transportation. For real fun I commute to work with my motorcycle, once a week.
  • patrpatr Member Posts: 6
    They are both very good cars as far as reliability and practicality go. I own a 99 Golf GLS (Manual Transmission) and it still drives like the day I bought it, it now has 145 000 km on it. Being 6'3, I found the Civic too small (cabin space) and hard to get in and out of. I didnt like feeling so close to the ground.

    The Golf fells very sturdy on the highway and its fun to drive. I've never driven an automatic VW but I dont really see the point.
  • gee35coupegee35coupe Member Posts: 3,387
    I guess it's just a preference thing.
  • blueiedgodblueiedgod Member Posts: 2,798
    Being 6'3, I found the Civic too small (cabin space) and hard to get in and out of. I didnt like feeling so close to the ground.

    Did you compare the 99 Civic hatchback to 99 VW golf or civic sedan/coupe? Coupe has the least headroom of the civic line. I do have to agree that VW's and Honda's are best suited for long legged drivers. I had both, but keep coming back to the Honda after a very unpleasant and costly experience with a VW in the past. But, thanks to that VW, I learnt how to fix cars, because it was literally eating me out of the house with numerous repairs after the warranty expired.
  • patrpatr Member Posts: 6
    I've driven the Civic sedan and hatch but not the coupe. I did like the hatch but the cabin seemed it would be a little cramped for 2 adults, a 70 Lb dog and a couple of pairs of skis. I was impressed with the leg room though, and you cant beat the resale value.
     
    I've been lucky with the golf and find it feels a little more solid on the road. We spend 4 months a year driving in snow and ice.
  • patrpatr Member Posts: 6
    Is Honda planning on coming out with a wagon? I would probably consider that option if they did.
  • carlisimocarlisimo Member Posts: 1,280
    Probably not. They figure the CR-V will satisfy the wagoners out there...
  • blueiedgodblueiedgod Member Posts: 2,798
    Is Honda planning on coming out with a wagon? I would probably consider that option if they did.

    If they bring the new Jazz, as mentioned in another thread. I was under impression that the Stream was coming to US.
  • prosperprosper Member Posts: 3
    I was going threw this post and i have seen and heard a lot of debates against and for the honda civic.
    i work for VW and if u want quality go for a civic
    if u want dependability and performance go for a civic.
    VW this year improved on there base model Jetta and GTI because of there new R32, it was suppose to be the VW's S2000.
    sales picked up a year and a half after the release but back to what i was saying hp for a honda doesn't go head to head with a VW: 1. u have to think about weight if u are a big gear buff u would know HPq=(0.00426xMPH)3xWeight.
    in order for a car to go 110mph in a 1/4mile the car has to be less that 3200pounds and have 329 hp's so think about the weight and the hp's for each car, 2.wheel diameter theres a lot of factors that play a role.
    i say this much if u are into mod's then u might have an advantage(yes i said might)u have to understand what helps what and play with it when i went to school for nascar i didnt understand when they said the term stock car....lol
    just think of this my civic has taking on a porsche boxter and is300 and won...... lol
    but not to say its a regular civic..... lol
  • blueiedgodblueiedgod Member Posts: 2,798
    i work for VW and if u want quality go for a civic

    If everyone at VW spells/talks like you, it would explain the quality issues!
  • wetwilliewetwillie Member Posts: 129
    'member - this is the internet...you can be whatever you want to be ;-)
  • 600kgolfgt600kgolfgt Member Posts: 690
    >i work for VW and if u want quality go for a civic

    Change the word "quality" to "reliability", then you will have a stronger argument... The build quality is not in question - it's the reliability (primarily of VW's suppliers) that should be in question...
  • tasboytasboy Member Posts: 1
    Let's put it in simple terms - the Honda is more RELIABLE and the VW is more DURABLE, especially if not garaged.
  • 600kgolfgt600kgolfgt Member Posts: 690
    Good point...
  • mautomauto Member Posts: 75
    Post # 571. Did anyone understand that?

    The Civic is more reliable, but the VWs do have better build quality. The two don't necessarily go together. I define "build quality" as not having an ugly visible weld joint as is the case on the Civic's interior door where the window frame meets the body of the door close to the side mirror. That same joint on the Golf is smooth and attractive. It's these minor differences that make VWs seem first class and Hondas seem third world (although more reliable).
  • blueiedgodblueiedgod Member Posts: 2,798
    Some people are superficial and some are not. Some only care what's on the outside and some care about the inside. To me the "ugly" weld is a small cancellation to the well engineered product that has proven to be such.

    In Kanos techings in quality there is a paragraph about expectations and delight. Customer expects a car to start every morning, having all the bells and whistles is just a delight factor. Those bells and whistles are useless if the car does not perform its primary function, e.g. starting and driving.
  • gee35coupegee35coupe Member Posts: 3,387
    I buy Honda.
  • serniterserniter Member Posts: 12
    I agree with the teachings on expectations and delight. VWs, apart from just starting and driving, do a lot to delight their customers. Starting with a solid rust-proof body to advanced engines to beautifully crafted interiors. Advanced safety features on even their base models... a comprehensive package. The downside is having to change a window regulator or ignition coil over a period of several years. Plus, you need to look around to find a good VW service center.
  • gee35coupegee35coupe Member Posts: 3,387
    Never heard of it. They've been building the narrow angle V6 for eons now. And the W-engines sound like a lot more hassle than they are worth.

    But Honda isn't known for any engine technology at all. Nooooo. Not recnetly. Hybrids, specific output in NA engines etc. in cars you can actually afford. Not $40k Passats.

    Civic is also a best pic in the safety area with airbags all around standard. Wait what was the point. And the best part is a reputation for not needing the service center in the first place.
  • 600kgolfgt600kgolfgt Member Posts: 690
    The Golf has had 6 airbags standard since 2002. Honda just offered them recently. And the Golf/Jetta have been best picks in safety also. So in that area - stalemate.

    The 1.8T engine's peak torque starts at 1950 rpm and stays there until 5000 rpm. To get low end torque out of a turbocharged engine is what I would definitely call advanced.
    And the upcoming 2.0T engine with its direct injection and 10.3:1 compression ratio has basically eliminated the dreaded turbo lag. And also, VW has been making the TDI engine (Turborcharged Direct Injection) for several years. So in a way, they are advanced.

    Hondas engines are advanced as well (especially with its VVT technology), you just have to wind the engine up to the 3000 - 4000 rpm range to reach its peak torque (a byproduct of its racing technology). And their hybrid technology is advanced as well - although the jury is still out on how they hold up during a long term of ownership - 150,000+ miles. The gas engine of the hybrid equation will make and exceed that mileage interval very easily. The question mark will be how long the electric motor/battery portion will last.

    To sum it up:

    Golf - More durable, but not as reliable as the Honda
    Honda - More reliable, but not as durable as the Golf.

    Different strokes for different folks...
  • badodysseybadodyssey Member Posts: 4
    I've owned Honda's for 14 years..why? I don't dare try anything else! they've been flawless for me...i've traded in and out and purchased about 8 in that time. upgraded for expanding family, purchased cheap then sold for major bucks a few 'winter beaters', etc. not once have I had a 'lemon'.

    aside from minor repairs: tune ups, oil change, torn CV boots, etc. they have been wonderful and CHEAP to maintain!

    The issue with VW is the cost of maintenence is higher, sometimes alot! axles for my 92 civic? 46.00 each, complete! oil change? 9.95! etc...

    The VW has 'imagined' reliability. not sure why everyone loves them so...and everyone just keeps saying how much they fix them! :)

    I sell cars, Honda's last 2 years, now I manage our Nissan store...and the trade value is horrendous in a VW! you generally pay more, and get much less in the long run.

    It's amazing how much more they do cost new to purchase than a Honda. And they really arent' that good (as far as reliablity goes)

    my 2 cents....
  • 600kgolfgt600kgolfgt Member Posts: 690
    You just made my point (Hondas are more reliable, but VWs are more durable)- You've owned eight Hondas in 14 years. I owned a 1987 Golf GT for 16 years and 624,000 miles, a 1975 Scirocco for 6 years and 200,000 miles, and I now have two Jettas: a 2003 Wolfsburg and a 1997 Jetta Trek. So that's four VW in 23+ years. I tend to keep my cars a lot longer than the average person, and the VW's have worked well for me (especially in the rustproofing/body integrity department). At the time I had my 87 Golf, I've seen quite a few Hondas (newer than my Golf) with rust problems and paint flaking problems. So for the long term ownership I will take a VW over Honda...
  • billmchalebillmchale Member Posts: 107
    Well I like the 98 Jetta I have been driving; though the car is certainly starting to show its wear. But at 140 K miles it certainly has not done all that poorly. One starter motor and a Battery in almost 7 years is not bad in terms of reliability. I am starting to think about trading it in mostly because I find I need something with more cargo hauling capability than a sedan provides. I have not ruled out the Golf, but my Cousin runs a VW repair shop and says that the current (outgoing generation) VWs have had alot of electrical issues.

    --
    Bill
  • chidorochidoro Member Posts: 125
    I don't think there's a problem w/ regards to durability of a civic or any honda in general. As evidence I would point to the enormous number of 15 or even 20 year old civics I see on my way to work being used as commuter cars (not just a college/ high school kid that may drive 100 miles per week). They run and a lot of them still look pretty good surprisingly (especially that hatchback whose picture is in the dictionary under the term bulletproof).

    Sure some may have rust on the rear wheel wells, most cars being used as a primary vehicle throughout it's entire life tends to. But, the interior remains durable. Plastic doesn't peel, seats don't wear out, door handles don't break off, etc etc. While YMMV, I don't think durability is a civic issue just like it's reliability rating.
  • wetwilliewetwillie Member Posts: 129
    Quote:

    "As evidence I would point to the enormous number of 15 or even 20 year old civics I see on my way to work being used as commuter cars (not just a college/ high school kid that may drive 100 miles per week). "

    You're kidding, right? If you're not, I'll throw in my anecdotal observations as well. I live in a large metropolitan area and I rarely see older civics on the roads - and the ones that are...are rusted out - and not in harmless areas, ie, the lower part of hatch on a hatchback that allows toxic gasses into the cabin. No thanks.
  • chidorochidoro Member Posts: 125
    You're more than welcome to put whatever inflection on your post that makes you sleep better at night. I too live in a metropolitan area and would certainly stand by my observations, regardless of your tone and inference.
  • gee35coupegee35coupe Member Posts: 3,387
    I know around here, we rarely see old Jetta or Golfs. And the first gen Passat is also absent. By old I mean over 10 years. I mean there are the occasional sightings, but I just got rid of my 1993 Civic EX with 120K a couple years ago and nothing was wrong with it. No rust or anything. I just wanted another car. Heck though in the last few years we've owned 3 Si's and 3 03+ Accords. How often you trade cas has nothing to do with the reliability.

    But VW placing in the bottom of nearly any longevity study speaks more volumes than any anecdotal story anyone can conjure. And the fact that the VW loses value like a sieve would also spell doom for longevity since any major repair to a aged VW could easily end up costing more than the car is worth. The only place that situation leads is to the auto crusher.
  • 600kgolfgt600kgolfgt Member Posts: 690
    >I know around here, we rarely see old Jetta or Golfs. And the first gen Passat is also absent.

    I don't know what area you live in, but on both coasts (East Coast and West Coast), there is an abundance of old VWs, Hondas, etc... So I guess the car crusher is pretty hungry at the moment...
  • gee35coupegee35coupe Member Posts: 3,387
    And there are very few older VW's here. Whereas there are 87-91 Civics not only on the road but they still are pretty expensive when they are in good shape.

    When you consider VW had 8 model lines in 1990 and Honda only had 4, the difference is even more obvious. The Fox, Corrado, and even the popular Cabriolet are noexistent on the roads these days. Whereas Civics, Accord, and even Preludes from that era are pretty commonplace. At least around here.
  • 600kgolfgt600kgolfgt Member Posts: 690
    The Fox and Corrado went out of production after 1993. And even during production, not very many were made (as compared to Golfs and Jettas). So naturally you won't see many of these cars on the road (I've only seen 3 or 4 Corrados and a handful of Foxes in my area)...
  • fish8fish8 Member Posts: 2,282
    I am not going to get into the "which is better" debate. But, please show me evidence that VW's "loses value like a sieve ". VW's have always been known for holding their value in resale. The following links show the retained Value of various car makes. I compared the Passat and Accord. Yes, the Accord retained it's value better, but the Passat was not far behind. According to JD Power: The Accord got "5 stars" = Among the best and the Passat got 4 stars = Better than Most. So, you saying that VW's lose value like a sieve is a little exaggerated.

    http://www.jdpower.com/cc/auto/jdpa_ratings/retained_value/RetainedValue.jsp?make=Volkswag- en&model=Passat

    http://www.jdpower.com/cc/auto/jdpa_ratings/retained_value/RetainedValue.jsp?make=Honda&mo- del=Accord+Sedan
  • gee35coupegee35coupe Member Posts: 3,387
    My post was referrring to why there are few older VW's on the road. Between the frequency of repairs and the costs involved, Honda reliability will keep them on the road longer.

    They sold a lot of Foxes though. And they were cheap. And they are now nearly extinct. The 87 bodystyle Civic went out of production in 1991 and they are still everywhere. I know they sold a lot of them but they also sold a lot of Ford Tauruses back then and they are nearly gone too. Reliable cheap to run cars stay on the road longer. A durable body does you no good if you can't keep the engine running.
  • 600kgolfgt600kgolfgt Member Posts: 690
    Conversely, driving a car with a severely rusted body presents a serious safety issue - especially if one were to have a collision. Proper maintenance keeps the engine running on any car - but a rusted body renders the car useless (unless you can find a car with a good body to transfer the powertrain to).

    Civics are numerous in your area because they don't salt the roads (during the winter) as heavily as the Northeast/Mid Atlantic (where I live) or Midwest. Plus, the frequency of certain automobiles are lower in your area because of population - The Northeast/MidAtlantic region (extending from Boston to Richmond, VA) has a higher population density than the Southeast - therefore, the more people there are, the more drivers there are, and a higher frequency of a given automobile model is seen on the roads.

    No matter what side of the issue you're on - it's been a good discussion all the way around :shades:
  • chidorochidoro Member Posts: 125
    As someone who lives in northern new jersey, I can assure you there's plenty of salt on the roads. It doesn't seem to effect the sheer number of older civics (or accords, camrys, corollas, etc) that are still being used as daily commuting cars. It's really quite astounding when you think about it because it's not just the weather, it's a hard stop and go commute to go just about anywhere around me.
    I'm actually kind of curious to see cars of my vintage ('98) will hold up body-wise over time as I'm sure they've improved rust tolerance over time.
  • gee35coupegee35coupe Member Posts: 3,387
    Won't do anything to keep the car running when the electronics go bad. A hole in a fender is nothing. I drove such a car when I was stationed in Okinawa. Rear view mirror fell all the way off of my 1976 Toyota Corona. But the car still got me from a-b. Just get some bondo. You can drive a car with rust. You can't drive a car that doesn't run because the fuel injection computer fried itself or some of the other off the wall stuff that happens to VW's.
  • 600kgolfgt600kgolfgt Member Posts: 690
    Fuel injection computers frying - I haven't heard of many overwhelming cases.

    Now as far as the other off the wall stuff (coil cracking issues, window regulator issues, and mass airflow sensor) - those I'm familiar with - That's why they're handled via Technical Service Bulletins. My 1987 Golf GT only stranded me once due to an electrically-related issue - the fuel pump that went out at the 375,000 mile mark... Preventative maintenance took care of the rest - over the years I've developed a knack for troubleshooting the wearable components in my car (starter, altenator, voltage regulator, etc.) to make sure they're not at the end of their service life. Those components that are nearing their end, I replace. That instinct has kept me out of trouble during my 20+ years of car ownership.
  • 600kgolfgt600kgolfgt Member Posts: 690
    Here's an interesting opinion: (when you click on the link, read Items #7 and #10)

    http://autoextremist.com/page2.shtml

    Things may not be as happy in Honda-land as they may seem.

    VW isn't the only manufacturer having problems...
  • gee35coupegee35coupe Member Posts: 3,387
    In the U.S. At least things "seem" happy in Honda land. VW land is in the dark ages.
    http://www.china.org.cn/english/BAT/81036.htm
    http://www.forbes.com/feeds/ap/2004/07/23/ap1467132.html

    as opposed to
    http://www.bloomberg.com/apps/news?pid=10000087&sid=a.M8UZJYEuo8&refer=top_world_news

    Which company would you rather buy a car from?
  • 600kgolfgt600kgolfgt Member Posts: 690
    Which is why the brought on board one of the best Car executives in the business - Wolfgang Bernhard - the man responsible for Daimler-Chrysler's resurgence.

    Click on this link and read Item #10. So in the long run VW is in good hands. As much as you seem to want them to go away, any news of their demise is greatly exaggerated... :shades:

    http://autoextremist.com/page2.shtml
  • gee35coupegee35coupe Member Posts: 3,387
    But with the dealers complaining about the lack of lower range Jettas cars and the lack of inventory in general, I guess it will be a while before we know the results.

    I couldn't care less if they stayed or left by the way. They are a non-issue to me.
  • fish8fish8 Member Posts: 2,282
    It sounds like you have a personal hatred for VW's. If one prefers a Honda...buy a Honda...if someone prefers a VW...Buy a VW!!! Diversity is what make the world go around!! :shades:
  • gee35coupegee35coupe Member Posts: 3,387
    Just because you debate "your side" of an issue doesn't mean you have a hatred for anything. I couldn't care less about VW's future. I do know the Jetta isn't gonna turn it around if early press is any indication. The GTI looks promising to me, but the U.S. isn't big on three door hatches.

    VW was nice enough to send me a $50 voucher for a test drive of the new Jetta though. Hope they stay in business long enough to pay up. :blush:
  • fish8fish8 Member Posts: 2,282
    It does sound like with all the cost cutting going on within VW, they did turn a profit for the first Qtr. I think their US operations are still reeling....but all of this was caused by VW themselves. They turned the ship around once....lets hope they can do it again.

    On the reverse side you have the EXTREMELY successful Honda and Toyota. Heck..you even have Toyota considering increasing their prices on US cars just to help out the floundering US makes (read GM). Why are Honda and Toyota successful......QUALITY Product!!!!

    I have my fingers crossed for VW!!! :confuse:
  • chidorochidoro Member Posts: 125
    I personally don’t have anything against Volkswagon either. I think the styles of their cars are nice. But each person checks different prerogatives with different vehicles attributes, reputations, and driving characteristics. To me, turning the key and getting to work w/out drama or surprises day in and day out is a top priority. It makes choosing a civic over a golf very easy. Someone in my condo complex has a golf. It certainly has a lot of character and it has a lot of utility for a smaller vehicle (they have a 3 door). They seem to really enjoy their car as well though I know it’s not a high mileage vehicle. Different needs, different cars, same results, a happy customer.
  • gee35coupegee35coupe Member Posts: 3,387
    I used to drive cars cross country for a living and some of the most satisfying ones were in VW products. I understand why VW owners love thier cars. They DRIVE. If they can keep that VW "feeling" while increasing reliability, I'd happily buy one. And like I said, the new GTI looks like it may be an awesome little runner.
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