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US vs. European vs. Japanese vs. Korean (Hatchbacks)
Everyone knows European hatchbacks are better than
Japanese ones. Or is it the other way around?
Maybe the US ones are the best after all. Is it
even possible to make a comparison like this? And
is it possible to agreeably disagree? :-)
Let's find out!
carlady/host
Japanese ones. Or is it the other way around?
Maybe the US ones are the best after all. Is it
even possible to make a comparison like this? And
is it possible to agreeably disagree? :-)
Let's find out!
carlady/host
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Comments
The American public has shown over and over again that they just won't buy a lot of hatchbacks, much less expensive ones.
These same Americans prefer to spend $30k+ on gas-guzling SUV's with suprisingly small cargo capasities.
Oh well....
Which is better? Chinese, Italian, French or Russian cuisine? A matter of preference and subjective taste, and in the US, we can be happy to have the choice when it comes to food. Personally, I like to vary my menu as often as possible. Why can't it be that way with cars?
The European car market and the US are extremely different. Culture, history, geography, gas prices... they all influence peoples' likes or dislikes for certain types of cars.
In Europe, just about everyone drives a 'stick'. In the US, most cars are auto. In Europe, a 'hatch' is often considered 'young', sporty, convenient (and not 'cheap' as in the US). More so than sedans, which are seen more as an expensive and 'no-fun' necessity brought along with family, children, and so forth. Not to speak about SUVs. It's not that people dislike them, but they cost a fortune in gas, and would be terribly inadequate in dense city usage.
The European 'hatch' market includes countless hatches, from Europe or Japan. The market is boiling with them! In the US, the hatch segment is the ugly duckling of the car market, with a meager choice of 3-4 models only (versus 8 or 10 TIMES that number in Europe).
So it's not a question of putting the American market up against Europe in terms of hatches, it makes no sense! All 'American hatches' are already sold in Europe!!!
What has struck me is the fact that some 'columnists' consider it to be an attack on the 'US hatches' (none of which originated in this country, I should ad) when I mention that there are a lot of great and exciting hatches in Europe. Why should they be threatened? We should be SORRY not to have more choice in the US in the small car segment... On the contrary, it seems that some rejoice in the logic of saying "YOU CAN HAVE ANY HATCH YOU WANT, AS LONG AS IT'S A HONDA". How silly, how dull, ...how utterly un-American! Buyers should welcome competition, not shun it!
In the US, Japanese cars 'rule' the small car segment. Not without reason. They are durable, and have a wide appeal with buyers. But many voice that they lack 'personality', styling or finish. In steps the Focus, which has ignited a 'friendly war' between 'rice' and 'wheat' people. Can we expect more 'pasta', 'french-fries' or 'polenta' added to the menu?
Probably not tomorrow... (to be continued)
You're also right about including the Celica, Escort and so forth, and I guess those cars have been 'overseen' in our heated discussions.
But although technically 'hatches', the Celica (and GSR for that matter) fall into the particuliar class of 'hatchback coupes' in my opinion. Certainly, many will disagree with this segregation... To me, when we discussed 'hatchbacks', the reference was to 'boxy' hatches, or 'convenieny hatches' if you prefer, like the Golf, Civic, and 'all those euro hatches' that aren't sold in the US.
For fear of sounding negative, I don't think this column will spark a lot of interest among columnists. The reason being that there is already a column called 'THOSE WE CAN'T GET IN THE USA' under 'news'.
People here aren't really interested in discussing the merits of 'euro hatches' like the Peugeots and Lancia and what not, and I understand that. Why compare cars that aren't available in the US and probably never will? - at least as long as autoshifts and SUVs will dominate the US car market.
So be it...
nobody was dreaming,thinking,or talking hatchback
in the u.s.pound for pound the best buy in a hatch.
sure,when price is no object,you better make a decent vehicle.i.e. euro hatches.- overpriced,
over rated + over there.where they belong,because
they would never make it against the japanese here.
Make some constructive remarks, and people will listen to you!
misinterpert my own statement,being the imbecile
i am not being able to recognize when another has
cornered the market on automotive genius.my response was simply an answer to togneters question.nothing more,nothing less.very gump-like.
but since you brought it up, and this is only an
opinion now,but i believe most americans remember
european vehicles having only one gear....reverse!
speaking of patriotism,happy independence day and
GOD BLESS AMERICA!
www.nytimes.com/library/financial/sunday/070200biz-renault.html
Check out the following Danish Toyota site, and you will see cars sold by Toyota in Europe (the Yaris and Corolla hatches for example).
www.toyota.dk/modeller/
www.peugeot.co.uk/newcars/
looking rides. is the toyota model with hatch,the
same as echo with trunk sold here? are there any
euro models to be had below 16,000 u.s. dollars?
it is interesting to see all the different hatches
overseas that are never introduced.by the way,if
you dont push the euro hatches not many will know
they exist.not much in the way of publicity here in the u.s.
'Witz' sounds like 'Vits' which means 'joke' in Scandinavia* - which is why they market it as 'Yaris' in those countries! Actually, I find that the trunk version of the echo looks weird. The hb is very futuristic, and has a more 'balanced' design. A very small car, powered by a very efficient (but noisy) 1.0 liter engine.
Most hatches in Europe starts below 10,000 USD (some as low as 6000USD) for base models, but it IS difficult to compare car prices given the strongly fluctuating currencies and local taxes. Today's strong dollar makes many European cars sold in the US a lot more expensive than their siblings back home when you convert back from dollars to say French francs.
Some countries like Denmark have heavy tariffs on cars (from 130% to more than 200% - an SL500 'fetches' close to 300,000 USD!). Therefore, 'ex-tariff' 'EXPORT' prices in Denmark are very low (lowest in Europe) and I have seen many Americans pick up a BMW from DK and ship it over to the US. Conversion costs are, however, a barrier to this form of arbitraging. A Honda Civic Si hatch would probably cost you 15,000 without the local taxes.
*note about another car with a 'unlucky' name: Toyota 'MR2' - never quite made it in France... perhaps because 'MR2' pronounced in French (Eh, merdeux) loosely translates to 'hey! [non-permissible content removed]'!!!
I believe there have been a few 'cultural blunders' like that before!
+ performance of euro models is driven not only in
pride of mfg. but also the high cost of fuel in
europe? the u.s.mfg.here has regressed,building
bigger gas guzzling suv"s.of course if they didnt sell,they wouldnt build them.my point is that i believe the focus hatch is a big success here,is
because there does exist a potentially large market
for a quality,affordable hatch.competition is healthy and as you have acknowledged before more
choices is better for the conumer.can the euro mfg.
deliver a hatch here as in europe at the same price points? i would like to see them do it,because as a consumer,we would all benefit.as much as i like my zx3, i am always open to a better-made vehicle at
the same price points.we as consumers do short-change ourselves in our buying decisions.it is an
achievement to see the import mfg. extract the mileage + performance from those small engines.
do you think toyota will bring that hatch here,given the surprising sales success of the focus hatch? i havent driven one yet but i understand the
u.s. version echo is mighty peppy for a 1.5 liter
and gets great gas mileage.by the way,those translated versions would fit very nicely on some models built here.thanks for your input.
I DON'T understand why Toyota couldn't do it. Like Honda, they are already established in the US and have a vast network of sales and service points. Bringing in another small car would simply add variable costs to Toyota. Their overhead is already 'sunk'.
For Fiat, Peugeot, Renault and Co., it's another matter. They don't have any kind of foothold here.
The cars they produce are fine, but that's just not enough if they don't sell.
I also believe that the US market and the European market are very, very different. But I could ramble on about that subject until I'd be kicked out - permanently - by the column host!
That said, maybe the ZX3 will open up a segment. The Golf/GTI seems to do fine, and I think more selection of euro hatches would be welcome. Personally, I'd love to get into a 306...
I think the industry will slowly tend to consolidate with fewer global players.
One we haven't talked about... Mercedes A-klasse Talking about mistakes, this car cost Mercedes zillions to 'redesign' after the car failed the 'elg-test' in Sweden and landed flat on its head:
www.mercedes-benz.com/d/cars/a-class/default.htm
This is what I call bland!
But back in the late seventies, the Colt looked kind'a cool in my opinion. At the time, they had a special transmission with a 'reducer' i.e. you could 'shorten' the gears. The system was developped together with Porsche.
www.nissan.de/micra_night/doc/frame.htm
I've seen Golf 'Rolling Stones' edition, Peugeot 205 'Roland Garros' and a few more I can't (or don't want to) remember...
hatch exactly as you described.technically,would
you agree that many suv's could be classified as a hatch as well?
alfa-back in the seventies the colt was considered by many a critic to be cutting-edge and a reliable
vehicle.you are also correct ,the industry has already consolidated with few players today as we speak.
just how many independent car companies are left
worldwide? they are almost all married-up.
I think the PT cruiser is a hatch. There is no doube it HAS a hatch. It is based off a Neon chassis. Personally, the functionality and price really interest me. I'm waiting for the GT Cruiser though.
When a liftback is on a sports car (integra, Celica, Firebird etc) I consider it a fastback, not a hatch, a different effect altogether.
they should have went with a 6cyl.modelthe one i drove
had the cruise control installed upside down. it
appeared solid while driving but not a fun car to
drive.power window switches were located in an odd
position.
From what I've read/seen, CP is relying on aftermarket to enhance performance. A turbo on the 4 should help significantly. I don't know if the 6 would fit. (I don't think it would.)
Basically what you're saying is hatchback is a term that only refers to compact station wagons?
When i told people what car i got, 9 times out of 10 I heard "hatchbacks are ugly, that car is ugly, i like the sedan better......" Americans are resistant to hatchbacks for some reason. Only like 1 of my friends likes me car and boy does he like it, the rest say that the sedan is nicer 9which I think is really ugly). I usually get mad at them and yell because they are the reason my only choices was a base , base, base Civic CX, and my beloved ZX3, which would have been my 1st choice if I had a choice of many. I dont consider the Golf for a number of reasons I wont discuss.
Mine cost 12k out the door, and I dont even have a/c.
Well nayways, hatchbacks are the best, and I think the ZX3 is the nicest, but that Lancia Delta in Gran Turismo is really cool!
being cheaply made.econoboxes is the term widely
used.i am referring of course to american
hatchbacks.in my opinion the honda civic has brought respect to the hatchback.again, my reference is to in u.s. only.alfaromeo has posted
some fine european hatches that never make it here.
i am owner as well of the zx3 and very pleased with
my purchase.this is the first hatch by a u.s. mfg.
that i ever gave consideration to purchasing.the
zx3,i believe will spurn other mfg.to follow suit.
The term hatchback comes from the time when German poultry-farmers were struggling with depressed markets, and they typically held a second 'day-job'. They couldn't afford a Mercedes for their daily commute, and they needed to look after the egg hatching process as well. In short, they needed a small cargo area where they could put their eggs, and allow them to mature in a warm environment. For this purpose, Volkswagen created the Golf GTI. Small, zippy, and equipped with a purposeful 'hatching' space in the back. The HATCH-BACK was born.
With time, some farmers became more wealthy and could afford more powerful hatching-cars. These were given the name of 'FASTBACKS'.
The 'LIFTBACKS' were equipped with a lifting device at the back of the car, which allowed for ease of loading.
The origins of these names prove (once again) the ingenuity of European car designers, who strive to cater for all customer needs. In time, Japanese manufacturers have caught up of course, equipping some of their finer cars with rice-cookers in the front. Different markets, different demands.
The ZX3 is a nice car, I really liked the interior and the ride quality. The car is much better built and more refined then the Escorts ever were, I was just dissapointed with the overall performance of it. Rather sluggish, and quite top heavy. I also think they should have made the front end different then the Sedan and Wagon versions.
sluggish.this zetec engine requires a long break-in.it really begins to smooth-out at about 3,000mi.
i also wish they made the front-end different as well.im at 4,800 mi. and the engine performance
overall is significantly improved.your initial
impression of the engine performance is a fair one.
i think those that have purchased one would tend to
agree.
alfaromeo- im a city boy,i did not know of the hatchback origin.very interesting.
lol
I saw America's priciest hatch on the road today. Excuse me while I puke. Could the BMW Z3 coupe get any uglier?
www.fortunecity.com/silverstone/lancia/58/gallery/ford/ka.htm
www.fortunecity.com/silverstone/lancia/58/gallery/volkswagen/lupo.htm
www.fortunecity.com/silverstone/lancia/58/gallery/volkswagen/polo.htm
This one is of the Golf. You can see a glimpse of the Recaro seats (optional) and the 5 cylinder engine. To my knowledge, the 1.8t and Vr6 are 'out' in Europe, replaced by the Audi V5 and the upscale V6 on the 4 motion. I have no clue about the V5 engine. I know it's 150bhp, but I remember reading that the 1.8t was more appropriate for the car...
www.fortunecity.com/silverstone/lancia/58/gallery/volkswagen/golf.htm
www.fortunecity.com/silverstone/lancia/58/gallery/mercedes/smart.htm
I am not sure, but I think it's some sort of collaboration between Mercedes and ...Swatch (you know, the plastic watches).
I saw one in Copenhagen with Swiss plates (I hope 'they' hauled it in the trunk of their E Klasse, and didn't drive all the way!)
The Audi A3 looks so much like a Civic! Sure, there are some minor differences. (Audi headlights are easy to recognize.) If I took all of the badges off of it in Photoshop, I could pass it off on these pages as a Honda. Same rear window, same rear spoiler, similar front end , similar tail lights, similar moldings on the doors, A-B-C pillars look similar, the rear windows appear to open (I wish mine did.), antenna is mounted in the rear instead of above the A pillar, stainless steel over the mirrors? It really isn't much of a stretch. I'd take the interior over mine. I'd take my $13,400 price. The Audi engine would be nice too.
You can keep the rest of them. I have seen a Smart around my home. Pretty weird and it doesn't look very safe. I would think it would be a pain in heavy cross winds.
The interior on the Golf looks great. Everything is so tight (tolerances not slang). Recaro seats sure would be nice!
M coupe: I thought this onewas the ugliest things to hit the road since the last gen. caprice, but I guy on my street had gotten one last year and its actually grown on me. It looks different and is eye catching and perfoms amazing. Of course, I will still take the M roadster...
one.