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Comments
Here's how the LL Bean won out over a GLX wagon:
1. Price. While the list prices were nearly identical, the discounts being offered on the Outbacks (selling below invoice) were substantial, while only modest discounts from list were offered on the Passats.
2. Availability. A fairly good selection of LL Bean models in stock at most dealerships. Virtually no 02 GLX wagons available, and only vague suggestions of when 03's would be there.
3. Cargo area. While the Passat numbers show greater cargo volume, we were very surprised to measure about half a foot more floorspace width in the Outback. (This in spite of the cars being nearly identical in exterior width. I suppose it has something to do with accomodating the different rear suspensions.) Front-to-back floorspace about the same. The extra volume must be in height and due to a lesser slope in the Passat rear hatch. But for my wife's typical cargo-carrying errands such as grocery shopping and loading up flats of plants, the greater floorspace is more useful.
4. AWD vs. front-wheel drive. At our price point, the GLX could only be had with front-wheel drive. Outback wins here.
5. Ride. This is subjective, but I made sure to drive both cars on the same day. Contrary to my expectations, the Subaru H-6 actually rode more smoothly and was quieter than the GLX V6.
6. Responsive dealership. The VW dealers in my area showed little interest in providing information or following up on questions. Not so our Subaru dealer.
So, we've been very happy with our Outback. I believe we would have been happy with a Passat as well, if conditions were different. And I do miss certain features such as HomeLink and the audio controls on the steering wheel that are included on the Passat. The Passat has better wheels, too - easier to clean, and not two-tone. But all decisions are a compromise, and this was one of those fortunate situations where we couldn't have gone wrong either way!
Dassub... congrats on the new ride. You would have been happy with either car. Sorry you were not afforded the same kind of customer service I received from the VW dealer I ended up buying from. I ran into a VW dealer like you dealt with and didn't close the deal because of various reasons. Two or three years ago I went to the local Subaru dealer and he wasn't too interested in customer service either. The test drive was one that could have not ended soon enough. The dealer was an idiot and the car was competent and well made but just not what I was looking for. I really wanted a BMW wagon but don't care for some of the dealers and not really happy with BMW service. I currently own a BMW sedan and haven't always gotten that warm and fuzzy feeling from the BMW guys. Enjoy your Subaru now and the miles ahead...
Gary
I do wish they'd both gotten the rear suspension from the Legacy, which is indeed very compact. They protrude very little into the cargo area, leaving a wide and deep floor, perhaps the biggest among mid-size wagons.
-juice
Hint, when cold index the level with a bright marker, then every few weeks or so take a peek. Hope that the only posts we read from you is that you love the car.
Be well Juice, Warp and Stephen.
Gary
Jettas are nice. They now rate reliability as average and recommend them. Until recently, they weren't recommended. Some VeeDubs are now built in my home country (Brazil). Maybe that's when they started improving? :-)
But premium fuel for a compact? Also, it had the highest fuel costs despite lacking AWD. Still, gas is cheap and I can see people picking the Jetta for other reasons. The 1.8T engine is a gem, and is easily chipped.
It's a little pricey for a compact, I guess we should call it a premium compact.
Good point, Warp, the WRC Impreza needs that strut for all the suspension travel it offers. But I was hoping the Forester would inherit the Legacy's rear suspension, though the Rally Team does use the Forester for Recon runs at the Kenya Rally.
-juice
I've noted your posts, Robert, in several locations regarding the loss of coolant that you've been experiencing. I hope and I think that what you've encountered is an anomaly. Cars are, after all, machines and machines are not perfect. What's more, they're put together by people who are even less perfect. The occasional car from any manufacturer will be severely defective in some way. If you're the unfortunate one in ten-thousand, I'm sure it's difficult to be philosophical about it and remain unemotional about what is a major financial expenditure, made with high hopes.
I've taken your suggestion (but substituted a pencil for a bright marker . . . can't bear to permanently mar my beautiful new car), and made a mark at the current coolant level. I noted that it's only 40% up between the minimum and full marks. Since I didn't check at delivery, I can't be sure it's the same as when brand new. Can you quantify the rate at which you saw your car losing coolant? (While doing this, I found one more improvement to make - a light under the hood! I was surprised to see none there for a car in this price range . . . especially in a vehicle that might be taken to areas far from streetlights.)
So Robert, although I'm not expecting to see the problem, I'll keep an eye on it and let you know what I find. In the meantime, I'm enjoying the heck out of this car!
In a few thousand miles the level of the coolant will be below the index mark, our tank is dry after about 4200 miles, but be certain to check the fluid level when cold, prior to the first start of the day is the routine we have gotten into.
My advice to you, and everyone else who reads this post and who has an H6 engine, is to have an oil analysis done to check for glycol just prior to having your first oil change or as soon as you notice a drop in the level of coolant.
Gary
Lubriport Labs
Kenner, LA
1.504.464.1734
To be accurate, and I hope everyone wants to be, you will need,
vacuum pump - about $20 from these folks
Clean sample containers provided by Lubriport with prepaid mailing containers and new sample hoses, total cost about $15 per test-glycol only.
So for a total investment of approximately $40 and 2 minutes of your time you will know for sure if you have a good one or a bad one.
What you will find yourself doing however is routinely having a full analysis done just to see what is happening inside the engine, it really is facinating-well it is to an a/r , o/c tech like myself anyway (all my clocks/watches/instruments are set, weekly, to the 'big one'in Boulder, I also have this need to know the correct time)
Gary
After reading your posts last week I checked my 2001 LLBean Friday afternoon before driving home from work and several times over the weekend. All were cold engines. The level was the same each time - halfway between FULL and ADD. That's after 26,200 miles...
I did smell coolant once during those 26,200+ miles - this past May when I was stuck in traffic on I95 in CT for 2 hours with the AC on. I considered that a normal coolant expansion overflow - exactly what the tank is there for.
So, no problem here. Sorry to say, I've had flawless performance so far (except for the replacement of front rotors/pads - covered by Subaru).
Good luck with your problem.
Ralph
Interestingly, the Legacy was out in front in "Personal Rating" (what car would the testers buy themselves) while the Passat was the unanimous choice in "Recommended Rating" (what car would you recommend for the average consumer).
These are two of the cars I'm looking at for my next purchase (the Forester is the third, although I'm leaning more toward the wagons these days). I test-drove a Passat GLS and GLX recently. I liked the GLS a lot except for the 1.8T engine, which I thought lacked power at low RPMs. (I drive automatics only.) I liked the V6 in the GLX better, but otherwise I thought the GLX wasn't worth the extra $6,000 over the GLS.
I'm looking forward to testing a GT wagon, but my dealer is out of 02s and doesn't expect 03s till September.
My head tells me Subaru (AWD for Minnesota winters...) but my heart lusts for the Passat!
If you lust after the Passat, just get the 4motion option! I wouldn't go from a Subaru to a FWD VW. A 4WD VW would be just the ticket (and the 4Motion system is a true full time AWD system, unlike those on the lesser VW's and TT's)
Having owned a A4 Jetta sedan (Mexico), diesel, about 95k miles in about 2 1/2 years and a new Jetta TDI wagon, Germany, for about 2k miles, I can tell you build quality is incredibly high from both countries.
The Jetta by the way, never showed any antifreeze in its oil samples..
Interesting, usually the editors pick the sportiest as their personal pick, and the most practical as their recommended pick. A good sign for both wagons.
-juice
I'm also 6'7" so head and legroom is an issue. I'm thinking about a standard Outback (because the sunroof in the Limited kills headroom) or the Passat wagon. Probably the 1.8T because of price. I'm looking for something that will run to 200,000 miles with few problems. Also any comments on the advantages/disavantages of the 1.8T or V6 Passat engines would be helpful. Is the reliability of the 1.8T and the V6 about the same? I drive over 25,000 miles a year on highways and back roads (almost no city driving). I also prefer a manual transmission. If there are any tall drivers out there, how are long trips in either of these vehicles? I've heard that Outbacks are extremely reliable. My wife has a 2001 VW Cabrio and we have had 3 problems in the first 30,000 miles. My sister has a 2002 VW Beetle 2.0 and has had a few problems in under 5,000 miles. I think the Passat is an awesome car but I'm concerned about possible problems. I like the way the Outback and the Passat look so that's not an issue.
Thanks in advance,
Bill
VW does slightly better in JD Power's initial quality, but Subaru has a bigger edge in long-term CR data.
We have a '98 Forester and recently bought a 2002 Legacy L. Two kids fit nicely in the L, I know because we just had our 2nd boy last week. :-)
We have a small dog so that's not an issue, but Subaru does sell a rubber liner for the cargo area, pretty cheap too, so we bought that. It's a practical way to keep it clean, plus it's OE. MacNeil sells aftermarket ones, but they actually cost slightly more.
We're very happy with our Forester, and now our Legacy too.
-juice
Ed (who actually is 67" tall and not concerned with headroom)
Thanks juice and wired1 for your comments. I'm planning on investing in a pet barrier for whatever I buy. I don't need them hoping over the seat and landing on my kids.
It seems that Subarus have proven themselves in the long term. I just wonder what a Passat will be like over 100k.
It was funny, when we arrived, Mocha (a chocolate lab) got out, relieved herself, and jumped back in to the Forester!
-juice
Vdubs- Good luck with your decision. Happy shopping!
Revka
Host
Hatchbacks & Wagons Boards
With two car seats in the rear, you will not be able to fit a normal sized human in the back seat of the cars. We're using a Britax seat now, and it takes the "hip" of an adult. Two seats, both in the outboard position, will leave little access to the center seat. I don't think you would be able to put the car seats in the center and one outboard position, but I might be wrong.
I would seriously recommend going to the dealership with two seats and install them properly.
In our current car, 97 Accord, the car seat also eats into the fore-aft space of the passenger seat. That's okay, my wife is only average height. But that seat is not too good for me, and I'm 6' 3", 180#.
We just rented a Mazda minivan from Hertz for a trip out West that we picked up at Denver Airport. I gotta say that the thing had a ton of room in the back for stuff (three suitcases, a diaper bag, camera bag, stroller, etc), with lots of room left over with the rearmost seat folded. A little less stuff and we could easily have left the rear seat up and had that extra room for passengers.
Bottomline, try them all with the car seats before you buy!! I'd drag the stroller with you for the test fitting, too.
I've got a 3 year and a 10 month set. I was uncomfortable the other day in my Outback because as a passenger (I usually drive but didn't have my glasses and got lost one too many times for my wife to appreciate) the seat was not reclined nearly as much as I like. I am not 6' 7".
If you are dead set against a minivan and SUVs then consider a larger wagon such as a used Volvo or Mercedes.
You don't have to move into a luxury car, for instance the C-class wagon has a tiny back seat.
I'm 6' even and the space in our Legacy is better than in our Forester (both with infant seats behind the driver).
-juice
My need for comfort room for my body has excluded lots of cars that, if I sit in them and sit really, really still, I can "fit" but don't have any wiggle room for feet, knees, or elbows. This has ruled out the Highlander, CR-V, Forester, and a few others. It seems that a lot of new cars have the jet engine cockpit thing going on. This is frustrating, because there would be plenty of room if they didn't fill up the front with large, bulbous, curvy cowlings that house various switches and buttons.
Anyone else experiencing this space problem?
So after looking for months we might be going back to look at the Outback wagons as well as the Passat wagons, which is why I am here. In addition to my seemingly bizarre space needs, we want 4WD or AWD, and space in the back seat for two growing preteens.
Carlos Alden
Gary
We have an L, and I've driven all of them, basically. If you are bargain shopping, check out the 2003 Legacy L/SE. They've now dipped to $19.3k with freight included, and that's with 16" alloys, moonroof, AWD, CD, and ABS. For value you can't beat that.
-juice
After having owned five Outbacks, and having very major problems with two, I feel qualified to comment.
The H6 was a very thirsty motor, consumed engine coolant at an alarming rate. The car spent approximately 45 days in the shop with no resolution, SOA finally bailed, after refusing to pay for the rental car, saying they would not attempt any further repairs.
It had to go, and even though Subaru behaved very badly, I am grateful to them-had we not traded for the VW we would never have realized how crude the Subaru product had become; rattles, clunking transmission and after having one with the infamous front end noise, really not a car to have much confidence in.
-juice
Having put 96k or so on our A4 Jetta, and only having to replace a coolant sensor, I have to take issue with your comments on long term reliability.
The Passat is far quieter than any of the five Outbacks we took delivery of, the transmission doesn't clunk when shifing from park to reverse, upshifts and downshifts are seamless, and the VW is virtually devoid of wind noise. The Passat is of vastly superior build quality, is light years more elegant, and offers more value for the dollar than the Subaru.
Ask the many others who are watching their coolant level drop how much confidence they have in Subaru's flagship motor-ours set new records in consumption during our vacation a few weeks ago. Ask the scores of owners who have to listen to the infamous front end noise about Subaru build quality.
As I mentioned, I really am grateful to SOA for behaving so badly.
Kate
For the record, however, my '01 LL Bean (with an H6) has performed flawlessly for more than 22,000 miles, the last 8,000 of which have been here in Florida. The air conditioner runs continuously and at no time has there been anything unusual with the coolant level. I have no front end noises, no transmission clunking, no shifting lurches and the noise level is extremely low at speeds in spite of a bike rack on top.
This is my third Subaru and I feel confident of the ability of the company to manufacture a highly dependable vehicle. My wife drives a '97 Impreza and she also has had trouble free experiences.
I agree that not every vehicle coming off the line will live up to someone's expectations. After all, human beings put these vehicles together and errors do occur. It is unfortunate that your VDC is one that seems to have let its owner down. But, really, I do think it is unfair to indicate that every H6 powered Subaru comes with problems. The scores of responses on this board tend to say Subaru deserves the superior quality and dependability ratings it has earned.
I believe you are exaggerating the advantages: "light years more elegant"? Otherwise you would not have bought a Subaru in the first place.
One other thing - your 4Motion probably cost a lot more than an LLBean would, so it should offer something extra. Fitzmall.com sells both at no haggle prices, they have a 2003 Bean for $27,040, while their cheapest 4Motion costs $30,508.
That's a big difference, a full grand more than you complain loudly about spending on repairs. And that's IF your Passat is absolutely perfect.
-juice
No car is perfect, and even people who've bought Hondas/Toyotas is sometimes stuck with a lemon. That doesn't mean that all of them are lemons though.
If you didn't hear about Toyota's sludge issue, you need to get out more!
-juice
I know that the Toyota and Honda stability control systems (VSC and VSA) are not "full range." They kick in well during an emergency maneuever but they do not have stability control capability when the vehicle is ABS braking -- ABS takes full control at that point.
Meanwhile, the German stability control systems (MB's, Audi's, BMW's, and now VW's) work even when the vehicle is braking via ABS. I know that ESP will even invert the braking effort on certain wheels to try to counteract a skid.
A real-world scenario for the "full-range" stability control system is when you're turning into a slick corner at too fast a speed, you begin to slide, and then you start braking. With the non-full-range systems like Honda's and Toyota's, there's no skid correction so you have a greater chance of fishtailing. With the full-range system like that in the Passat's, ESP will still try to correct the skid, though obviously up to the limits of traction.
Edmunds lists that feature as an option for the GLX 4Motion, though, not standard, like the VDC. I guess the technology trickled down from Audi. It used to be theirs exclusively.
Yeah - it's an option. Fitz has some with, some without it. The cheapest one with ESP is $30,755, compared to $27,437 for a 2003 VDC.
-juice
Many people prefer the rear power bias in that it acts a bit more like a RWD car, or more like a so-called "driver's" car.
Bob
The German systems (e.g. ESP) are done by Bosch or Continental-Teves.
Yes, ESP is only an option on all VW's now. But it's only $280 on the Passat, a relatively low sum. In fact, my Subaru/VW dealer says that the vast majority of the 2003 Passats they get in have ESP.
Unfortunately, VW has discontinued the GLS V6 4motion trim, and you must get a GLX trim level to get 4motion. That's made getting 4motion (which is really Audi's excellent quattro system underneath) a significantly more expensive proposition, sadly.
$27,437 for a 2003 VDC? Are you sure? Isn't the invoice price on an H6 VDC $29,818? Is Subaru already offering incentives on 2003's like the H6 VDC?
Thanks!
Further to Bob's comments, though, the biggest advantage of the Subaru is that it is pro-active. 4Motion is completely reactive, and I'll explain why.
The Subie uses sensors to determine how to distribute the AWD. It looks at incline, throttle position, and other inputs, and deteremines how to spread the torque BEFORE you even get moving, pro-actively.
The Passat is not. I has a torsen differential in the center, which actually fails completely on frictionless surfaces (though it works fine on dry pavement), hence it relies on the traction control to manage both axles. So basically, it shifts power when the brakes are applied to the axle that is spinning. In other words, it reacts to wheel spin, then sends power to the axle that has traction.
Here's a good example: say you are pulling up a wet, slippery boat ramp, with a small sail boat or a pair of jet skis (take your pick). The Passat will spin its unloaded front wheels until the T/C kicks in, braking the fronts, sending power to the loaded rears, and, finally, getting the car moving up the slippery ramp. Ever seen a FWD car pull up a wet boat ramp? It's noisy, and a bit embarassing. I'd bet 4Motion will not manage to do it quietly.
The Subie is smarter. It knows you're climbing, sends more power to the rear axle even before you hit the gas. It knows the rear axle is loaded and will offer more traction. This prevents the wheel from ever slipping, and if it does then there's the safety net of the VDC and TC. But it's likely not to even need it. Smart.
BTW, $280 is totally worth it for ESP, I would get it without question.
-juice