Subaru Legacy/Outback

bkaiser1 · October 2006

I won't be around for the chat tonight, but I would like to add that the recent recategorization of these topics has made it very frustrating to quickly see the latest posts. Do we really need 20 separate topics for each model? Before, I could simply bring up the Subaru forums and see all the latest posts for each car and the layout seemed quite intuitive. Now, I would have to click on each individual topic for each model (tires, nav, climate control, etc). There are simply WAY too many topics now to quickly navigate.

How hard was it to just do a search within a specific forum to find what you need? If you have a Tribeca and have a question on the NAV, it seemed pretty easy before just to go to the Tribeca forum, search on NAV, and read the posts. This seems to be a major step backwards for the forums.

brian

crosstheborder · October 2006

Hi, we have a '96 Outback and have just experienced the same problem...did you ever find a solution? Thanks T

xwesx · October 2006

T,

Will you describe the problem a little more? When does it tend to happen... after several hours of being parked, or just a few minutes after?

I may be able to help you out on this one with some specifics.....

acoronis · October 2006

Nope, haven't gotten it fixed yet.

acoronis · October 2006

I parked, it was in park for about 5 seconds and then died. I had to have it towed, replaced the fuel filter because most people that listened to it said it sounded like it wasn't getting gas. It is still not working, because I am saving to get it fixed. But if I knew what was wrong, it would be a lot easier to estimate a cost to fix it. thanks for any help you can give!

crosstheborder · October 2006

This is the first time it happened, we drove it home, parked it, it sat for a day and a half and then would not start. We have since pulled out and checked the relays in the engine compartment, we did not put back new ones, the car then started. At this point, we have out fingers crossed that maybe one was loose. What would be your thought? Thanks for answering. T

xwesx · October 2006

Oh boy. Well, both of your situations are different from what I thought might have been a similar issue to the one I once had. T, yours is quite a bit different in that it happened while the car was sitting for a while so it was not warm. The problem acronis described was at least while/just after the vehicle was used, but the fact that it still does not start means something more is wrong than my problem, but it still sounds similar.

Here goes: For acronis, I think it might be a mass airflow sensor failure - meaning it has just went kaput altogether. The part itself is about $350-400 new. I suggest this because my problem, reasonably isolated to the MAS (and has not happened again since it was replaced), showed the following symptoms: The car would stall occasionally while at an idle - sometimes in the driveway or a parking lot, sometimes at an intersection. When attempting to restart, the car would usually not start. I could crank it until the battery died, and nada. But, wait 5 minutes and try again. Sometimes it would start, sometimes not. If not, wait another 5 then try again... repeat until successful. The longest it ever took me was 25 minutes, or 6 attempts. The non-start problem was something different from the MAS, though. It persisted after the stalling problem was (assumedly) fixed and only disappeared after replacing the knock, crank, and camshaft sensors - though an actual failure by any of them was never recorded by a non-start event, so I do not know (with certainty) which was the actual source of the problem. I am inclined to think it was the camshaft sensor.

Basically, though, my understanding about these sensors is thus (perhaps Steve, Craig, or someone more knowledgable about them can chime in if I am off base here!): The timing sensors tell the car when to send spark to the plugs, so if there is a failure there, then no spark or mis-timed spark means no firing. For the MAS, it feeds back information about quantity of air/oxygen entering the intake, so misinformation or no information feedback will cause the car to run too rich or lean. At idle, this effect is most pronounced and can cause the car to stall.

There could be other problems here, like a fuel injection issue or feedback from one of the other systems, but I would think that if spark, fuel, and air were in the cylinders at the same time, it would at least stumble when trying to start. An easy way to check for fuel is to pull the fuel line off the output of the fuel filter and turn the ignition to the "on" position. Route the line to a container, of course, and have a helper to witness, as that fuel pump is going to spray fuel quickly and you only want to turn it on for a moment before shutting off. If there is no fuel, you know the issue is with the fuel pump!

Those are my thoughts, hopefully you can dig through them and find something helpful.

-Wes-

fibber2 · November 2006

Hey Wes,

Good description of parts and function. The only thing I would add is that some systems (depending on year, sophistication) also have a separate idle-air circuit. When the throttle plate is fully closed (idle), this separate pathway meters a fixed amount of air around the MAS/MAP sensor, and sends an estimate of flow to the ECM, with additional feedback from the cat O2 sensor to fine tune it. I guess they figure that the MAS/MAP sensor accuracy at very low CFM is questionable, so provide a different measurement method.

sublegbri · November 2006

Hi,
My 1999 Subaru Legacy has us stumped. We get a hesitation during acceleration, sometimes a violent shake in 1st gear. (The car has yet to die during one of these episodes.) The hesitation is variable, ie there is no correlation between the hesitation and the time of day, weather, ect. The only correlation is that it generally runs fine when we take it our mechanic. The most frequent code we get is for the oxygen sensor. We have replaced the 1) throttle position sensor, 2) idle control valve, and 3) oxygen sensor.

Any thoughts??

Thanks

scottca · November 2006

Hi: Thinking about purchasing the 2007 LL Bean model in a couple of months & would like some advice from you experts on the navigation system option? Does anyone have the system & is it upgradable? What features do you find useful? Just can't decide if it's worth the extra money. Thanks Lawrence

90subbie · November 2006

I have a 90 Suburu Legacy (177K miles), so I have finally decided to add another car and of course I want another Suburu Legacy, but I want it in RED. I am extremely disappointed that there are no red 2007s.

Why would they have discontinued red? Who can I e-mail, call, beg, threaten, whatever to get it in red?

Now I'm wondering do I need to wait until the 2008s to see if they bring red back. I would rather not, because my poor 90 Legacy needs a break from long trips. I do have someone looking for a new 06 Legacy GT for me in red.

Any assistance would be greatly appreciated.

slazenger · November 2006

Well, you cannot do much... You have to pick a color from five colors they offer. Email SOA or call 1-800-SUBARU3 and let them know that you like red color. Regarding 2008, based on SOJ color palette, I highly doubt they will bring back red (unless SOA have a tonne of requests for red).

ateixeira · November 2006

Spark or fuel, as they say. Gotta be one of those.

If you haven't already, try new spark plugs and spark plug wires. If they are original they are overdue for replacement. Beyond that, look at the ignition coil ($80 or so). Also try a fuel system cleaner like Techron.

-juice

xwesx · November 2006

Yep. Subaru seems to be going with these washed out, bland colors... maybe they appeal more to the masses. I, too, prefer colors with vibrance - deep and glistening reds, greens, and blues.

This is actually one of the primary reasons I am steering away from Subaru for our next purchase. My wife is dead-set on one though, so who knows. Even though I am the one paying for it and working on it, I seem to have very little sway on her opinion. :sick:

carteach · November 2006

Well, I just got back from test driving the LL Bean Outback. Please don't flame me for this because I LOVE my old Subie. My experience of the Outback was.... smooth ride, great pick-up, nice interior. But... I found it hesitated on the highway between 3 and 4 rpms... It happened a number of times. I found the cornering very loose and sloppy compared to my old Subie and my Saab. There was also some wind noise which was surprising. Features that I would want on both the Bean and the Limited model would be on-wheel controls... just on the Bean... a light that stays on for a bit after you stop the engine.

I'm wondering if others have felt the hesitation and if it's just a function of the six cylinder. This car had very few miles on it.

djetta · November 2006

Carteach-I have an 06 LL Bean and my car hesitates quite a bit-usually at the most inopportune moments like going up an incline or when I'm trying to pass someone. I just had it at the dealer and complained about the tranny problem but as I expected I was told that "nothing is wrong-the car simply has to learn my driving habits". I love the AWD and the style of the car but I'm annoyed, especially since the car was not inexpensive. Makes me wish I'd kept my peppy Jetta and dealt with it's problems rather than have traded it in for the Subaru. I'm really disappointed with Subaru and doubt that I would buy another one.

carteach · November 2006

djetta,

Thanks for sharing. I'm not going to pay $30K for a car that can be dangerous. Sad because I LOVE my '95 Legacy. Funny you should say that about your Jetta. I just sold my Saab, which I loved, hoping to save $$ down the road. I'm going to test drive the Acura tomorrow. Then on to the Camry and Avalon which from what I've read on these forums are having the same tranny issues. I wonder if there really is something in the self-training transmission.

cptplt · November 2006

maybe the tranny needs to reset and relearn your driving style, IIRC if you disconnect the battery for a while , it will default back to factory setiings then relearn your driving style.
or maybe you need to try another dealer or specialist tranny place because there may well be a problem your delaer is clueless about. don't necessarily take the delaers word as gospel truth, some of them are clueless

bufffan · November 2006

I just purchased an 07 LL Bean OB about 3 weeks ago, sans NAV. I test drove a 2.5XT that had the NAV option. To be honest, I didn't think it was worth the add'l $2000 (sticker). I'm not a "road warrior" in that I know where I'm going 99% of the time. I pulled over during my test drive and spent a few minutes messing with the navigation system, and it seemed more of a "toy" that I wouldn't really use. It wasn't clear if / how this system could be upgraded as new technology is developed. I didn't ask because I knew right away I wasn't going to get it.

If your primary use of the car is traveling in unknown territory (delivery, sales, lots of travel), then it might be for you. Otherwise I'd spend the $$ on other features.

My Outback without the NAV system has a nice covered storage area for sunglasses and pack of gum..

-- BuffFan

edwardsf · November 2006

Garmin and other companies offer portable GPS systems from $300 up. They are quite portable, supposedly user friendly and can be used in different cars. I have not used them but if they are good enough for Yao Ming....

paisan · November 2006

I put one in my Armada and it's great. Advantages of DVD player, MP3 Player, Navigation, internet and I can move it to a new car when I get one.

-mike

ateixeira · November 2006

Heck yeah, my Garmin c320 is sweet. You can do certain things the built-in ones can't, like create custom POI lists.

I have such a list for speed traps and red light cameras, so it warns me as I approach those.

Wish I had it sooner - my wife got a speeding ticket on Bradley Blvd right where it crosses over I-495 in MD, and nowadays we get the warning and remember to slow down.

Cool stuff. I paid $404 but they are *much* cheaper now. Think I saw one for $260, new too.

-juice

PS Make sure you get the latest maps, v8 is the latest.

ebony5 · November 2006

I am about to take my '96 OBW in for its 90,000k service. I have had a number of things done to the car between scheduled services. For example the fuel filter was replaced at 76,839 miles. How often should it be changed? The same with having the brake system flushed which I had done at 68,659 miles. I plan on taking it in in a couple of weeks. Any suggestions concerning the above and other related matters are appreciated. Thanx.

foleor · November 2006

I have a starting problem with my 1998 Legacy/Outback that is driving me crazy. The car won't start when warm, i.e. after driving it for a while and then leave it standing for 30-60 minutes (a typical shopping trip say). The starter will not do anything at all, all other electrical functions are okay. When turning the key you hear some soft clicks (probably relays), but only a significant click from near the starter when you let go of the key and it returns to the On position. Often the car will start after 5-10 attempts, but sometimes it will take half an hour before the temperature of the engine has dropped enough to start. This seems to be a common problem with older Outbacks from scanning the Subaru forums, but I have never found a solution.

We are now using our 5th new starter (all on warranty!), but by now even our mechanic is convinced it is not cause by the starter

. I do not think it is the neutral start switch (it is an automatic), as moving the transmission stick around has never made any difference, and I am not sure how this would relate to engine temperature. It is also not caused by the alarm system, as I tested the override. The battery was checked fine twice.

It seems that every time a new starter was put in, the car was less prone to this problem, but soon it would start again and get progressively worse. Could it be related to the ECM, which is being reset after the battery gets disconnected? But the wiring schedules I have suggest it is not involved in the starter wiring at all.

Some other, probably unrelated problems we have after replacing the knock sensor:
- somewhat rough idle, but only when in Drive, not when in Park/Neutral,
- strong gas smell when driving small distances.

Any suggestions appreciated, because we are getting worried about getting stranded at some point...

once_for_all · November 2006

it probably is not a complicated problem. It is likely a lose connection somewhere on the large amp wires, and possibly a bad wire terminal. It could also be the starter relay itself. The mechanic should be able to trace it.

I had the exact same problem on my farm truck. It turned out to be a lose wire terminal on the starter relay.

John

paisan · November 2006

Starter Relay
ground wire to starter
ECU

-mike

foleor · November 2006

Thanks for the suggestions, but all connections were checked after putting in so many starters... The wiring diagram I have for this automatic does not have a starter relay, but correct me if I am wrong. I have not checked the wire terminals to Neutral/Park switch, but as I wrote before, I am not sure how this would be effected by engine temperature (but maybe it is?)

scottca · November 2006

Hi: I thought the 3.0 Rll bean was an Outback, but noticed on the window sticker it said outback legacy. Is the Rll Bean model a legacy ,outback or both? thanks

ateixeira · November 2006

What's in a name, right?

They usually call it just Outback, but some times you see Legacy Outback.

Oddly, when Subaru announces sales, they include Outback sales in the total Legacy sales. But not the other way around. Weird.

-juice

ewb · November 2006

Just bought a new 2007 limited OB wagon, and was planning on improving the factory stereo. I was actually suprised at the quality of the system....pretty good bass and decent fidelity in the mids and highs.

Here's what I ~ know

According to Subaru, the front stock component speakers have a bass response down to 75hz but they sound much lower. Also, I've been told that the stock speakers are 8ohm, so just replacing the speakers (no amp) is not a good idea as aftermarket options are always 4ohms. According to Subaru rep, the rear door speakers are not even coaxials. Also, heater controls are integrated with the HU, so full aftermarket swap is problematic. Front doors are limited in space, so mounting depth is an issue with many component speakers.

I'm worried that if I add line-level converter, amp, and four speakers, I'll actually lose bass response as the stock speakers already have pretty good low range, and many of the shallower component speakers lack good bass response. Alternatively, I could add a 4-channel amp to power front components, bridge 2 channels for sub, and then keep crappy rear door speakers running off the HU power, but would have a big sub to conceal.

Just curious what types of aftermarket systems folks have done, and how it turned out. Sounds like the stock subwoofer upgrade fits under the driver's seat, which would leave room under the passenger seat for a smallish amp??? Anybody have any experience with the factory sub upgrade?

Any thoughts/corrections would be appreciated.

mikegs1 · January 2007

Been there, done that. 67K on my 03 Legacy GT Wagon. I had what I thought was a slight knocking noise only when the engine was cold. Tapping noise went away after no more than 4 minutes. Tried two different tanks of gas, same sound. Gave it to the dealer...bad tensioner. Looking at the bottom of the tensioner (where the "piston rod thingy" comes out of the tensioner) I can see several groves perpendicular to the surface where something was hitting the surface. There is also a film of oil on the surface of the plate held into the tensioner by the "C" clip. I doubt the slight film of oil means anything but the marks on the metal do. I do not know enough about where the tensioner sits in the car but something was obviously coming into contact. Maybe the "piston rod thingy" starting to give up? Of course my Classic Extended warranty does not over it. $710 with a new belt. Problem solved.

blwinner · January 2007

Every Outback is a "Legacy" (body style), but not all Legacys are "Outbacks". This has been going on for 10 yrs. Next year their will be no more Legacy wagons, so this confusion over the nomenclature should cease.
By the way, since I sell them, I drive the LLBean 3.0 a lot, and have never experienced any hesitation. I drive them hard as well as "normally". The only "hesitation" is from the XT due to turbo lag. That is annoying. Yes, I can be very critical, and yes, I own a Legacy sedan paid for with my own $$. I used to have a company demo, but no more. I still love the Legacy, even when I make the payments.
Bruce

nippononly · February 2007

a movie and was amused enough by a small detail that I thought I would post it here. The movie is "Catch and Release", and the lead drives a first-gen Outback wagon all through the movie. You fans of the car may be amused if you watch the movie to note that at the end, after she has taken a long trip in the thing (of which they show various quick shots along the way), she arrives at the end of her trip and drives up in.......a SECOND-GEN Outback! Same color, and they even put the rooftop storage box from the older car on the roof of the newer car to make it look exactly like the older car.

Makes me wonder what happened - did the older car break down irreparably just before they finished shooting the movie or something? Why would they need to have two different cars? :-)

fibber2 · February 2007

Nice catch... Oops, bad pun.

caliberchic · February 2007

Whoops!

ateixeira · February 2007

In the sequel she'll probably drive a 3rd gen OB, again the same color.

-juice

xwesx · February 2007

Head gaskets..... :P

tigabump · February 2007

Hi!

Want to buy a used Outback with approx. 45-85k miles (at best a manual or is there anything suggesting that this is a bad idea ?)

What are the typical things I have to pay attention too, when buying an Outback of that age ?

thanks
Joe - don't want to spend money on a :lemon:

caliberchic · February 2007

Discussion moved to it's own thread '01 GT Ltd Brakes Are Unresponsive in Cold

legacy_gt_dc you may get more replies with it being a stand alone topic.

paisan · February 2007

Why so many stand alone topics? Perhaps it should be moved to the "Problems/Solutions" topic?

-mike

ateixeira · February 2007

I really like the 05 update, so I might suggest looking for one of those, even if the miles are higher.

00-01 models still had the older head gasket design, so I would focus on 02 and newer at least.

Besides that, there's no major pattern of big problems with those, they're quite reliable actually.

-juice

tigabump · February 2007

thnx, so the well known head gasket problems were solved from 02 onwards ? Can't I 'fix' the old ones somehow ? And what are the experiences with the manual vs. automatic transmission?

caliberchic · February 2007

That is also a good solution. I just want to be sure the OP gets his question answered.

ateixeira · February 2007

The new gasket material has proven better, so as long as the original didn't overheat and warp the heads, that ought to provide a permanent solution. Changing the head gaskets would cost at least $3-400 per side, though.

Both trannies are fine, just test the clutch for clutch chatter. If it's smooth you're fine. If it shakes when cold, well, it doesn't usually affect longevity, but I'm not sure you want a clutch that isn't smooth.

-juice

fibber2 · February 2007

Juice - try more like $1500 for one side, $1800 for both (most of the labor is already invested to get there) at a dealer. Something like 12+ hrs labor just to do the drivers side on mine, plus the gasket set, fluids, etc.

Steve

krzyss · February 2007

If movie changes location (not only in the plot but filming location too) then some things are left behind (returned to owners) and new stuff/staff is hired.

I guess they changed filming location and did not find exact the same car.

Krzys

ateixeira · February 2007

Seems like the prices vary wildly. I may have been quoting prices Colin saw in Kansas. In DC it's probably somewhere in between those.

Meh, I'd use Subaru Bucks if I ever had to do that.

-juice

lmenten · February 2007

The head gasket problem goes back to 1996. I have a 1997 with
78000 miles (conservatively driven) and the head gasket has failed. There are lot of postings on this problem which appears at mileages well below 100,000. I find this shocking.
I can't believe that Subaru's reputation has not been demolished by their unwillingness to address this widespread problem.

lmenten · February 2007

Google the web on the head gasket problem with Outbacks from 1996 to 2002 and beyond. Run away.

lmenten · February 2007

The big one is the endemic head gasket failure problem. Don't even think of buying one. Google the web on this problem. Shocking.

Subaru Legacy/Outback

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