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Comments
As far as that cargo net goes they usually come with instructions or templates. If not go down to the dealership with a tape measure and measure the spot from a reliable index point. Placement is not that critical as long as you don't get to enthusiastic with the drill. I know its hard to drill holes in your new car.
4-runner is a totally different vehicle. Off-road it will walk all over the all-road and the OB, on road it won't handle as well. Towing the 4-runner will walk all over the other 2 as well. Personally I find the 4-runner to be a ripoff. I was shopping for a legacy GT wagon, and was about to buy one. Then I put 5 full sized adults in it, and it had no get-up-and-go, and would never have towed my 2000lb boat trailer with 4 or 5 adults in it. Got a 2000 Trooper for about $3K over the price of the GT wagon, and with a ton more features.
The all-road with it's funky suspension I wouldn't consider, because I have a subaru XT6. I kiled the air-bag suspension in it, and it cost me about 6 months research to get the proper parts to replace the air-bags with non-air suspension.
-mike
http://www.bitman.com/soobinstall/
There is a blow up of the hole location following the full page instructions.
bit
--Paul
I've been thinking about getting a Subie wagon. WRX is really my personal favorite but it's too small for mia familia. So I'm considering L/OB wagons.
It seems like the two models are very similar. Are they essentially the same car/wagon or are there substantial differences?
This issue has probably been discussed earlier and so if you can point me the discussion links, I'll also appreciate it!
TIA!
- Paul
Tires are bigger, giving a softer ride, and the raised suspension will give you a more tippay feeling, but will give easier step in and more clearance.
The shocks are actually the same shocks with the mounts lower which is kinda funny.
-mike
L does not get:
Limited slip rear differential
Drivers seat lumbar adjustment
6 way drivers power seat
No sunroof option
In glass antenna
16 inch alloy wheels (has 15 inch steel wheels)
variable intermittent wipers
Fog lights
Body color door handles and side molding (cladding on OB and black on L)
Engine, tranny and body are the same. I have the GT and chose it over the OB because it has a lower ride height, monochrome paint with no cladding, handles better on the road and doesn't have the body cladding. At the time I believe the L didn't have rear disc brakes. Here's my GT:
http://www.bitman.com/gt/
bit
Nice of you to post the instructions Bit, but I can't make out figure 1 at all. I don't even recognise what part of the car it is supposed to be. I don't have my 2000 OB wagon here in front of me but I don't remember tail light access doors anywhere except in the tailgate. They break regularly so I'm intimately familiar with them. But I believe I was wrong once before, in 1979, so I could be wrong again.
Maybe these instructions are for the sedan?
I tweaked the diagram a bit and labeled a few things:
http://www.bitman.com/soobinstall/cargo_net2.html
bit
bit
Decided to investigate the Hyundai Santa Fe, Mazda Tribute/Ford Escape V-6, 2002 Ford Explorer, and the Subaru Outback Wagon with 2.5 4 cylinder engine, automatic transmission. These vehicles were selected because of decent reviews, price and value to some extent, capacity, handling, cruising at 65 to 80mph, quality and opinions offered by many on various net sites, and last in importance trailering or towing ability. I currently own a Toyota Avalon and an 18+ year old 4 x 4 3/4 ton pickup rusty which is hardly used but operable.
My wife and I drove each "test" vehicle at least twice in different weather conditions. Here are our biased opinions.
My wife thought the 2002 Ford Explorer had no real styling as in the Santa Fe, for example. The Explorer she thought looks like a box. She thought it lacked power and its mass above 70mph make the engine work to maintain that speed or a greater speed. We also thought the interior was okay but nothing special and that the coin holder was basically unusable while driving. Fit and finish seemed good; however the vehicle handled like a big lumbering oaf. We decided it was too large for us, got fairly poor gas mileage, lacked styling inside and out and probably would have difficulty getting out of its own way in an emergency handling situation and had Ford "reliability" or lack thereof. Lastly, the Explorer XLT (2001 version in this instance)is a 4WD vehicle not an AWD vehicle and the Subaru Outback Wagon beats ALL in the snow. NO CONTEST. Last winter I test drove the 2001 Outback in an empty mall parking lot which was basically sheet ice and hard packed wet snow. I COULD NOT GET THE OUTBACK TO GO INTO AN UNCONTROLLED SPIN NO MATTER HOW I TRIED TO ABUSE THIS VEHICLE. I MEAN IT! TALK ABOUT GIVING A PERSON CONFIDENCE!
We then drove the 4WD Mazda Tribute V6 and Ford Escape V6. We both were impressed with the power. It is a lively vehicle to say the least. However it is NOT a AWD but a 4WD vehicle and will not perform as well as an OUtback in the snow. It emits a fair amount of engine and road noise. As all SUV it does not give us the feeling of safety or confidence in an emergency handing situation with the center of gravity significantly high. Perhaps a great view of the road in a SUV but I don't want to flip if I have to perform an emergency swerve. In additon to the powerplant another strong point is the Tribute's/Escape's 3500 lb. towing capacity compared to the Subaru's 2000 pound capacity. Gas mileage fairly decent, interior straightforward and plain vanilla. The Tribute's/Escape's doors seems to lack any heft and felt rather "tinny" which probably added to the road noise.
The Santa Fe AWD in our view wins the exterior and interior design award. We drove 2 different AWD Santa Fes. We were very impressed. The ride was excellent and was similar to the ride we experience in our Toyota Avalon. The fit and finish were excellent. For an SUV there was a minimum of lateral swaying. The engine could use more power and it supposedly doesn't tow over 1500 pounds in the AWD model. It is VERY WELL EQUIPPED. However, the down side is that there was a noticeable smell similar to something burning when we existed one of the 2 vehicles. The salesperson tried to blow it off but we found similar comments re the Santa Fe on the net. Further we decided against it because of few dealers and limited dealer support, very limited numbers of Santa Fes for the marketplace and in many cases a premium of $1000 added to the MSRP. NO THANK YOU. I AM NOT A FOOL. I do belive that Hyundai is a real comer in the global quality marketplace.
All in all, the Subaru Outback looks and feels like a quality vehicle. It rides and handles superbly. The interior is tasteful and appealing bordering on plush, 2 tone dash with complimentary tan/creme colors and nice tan fabric seats. Fit and finish are excellent thoroughout. The specs are great. The OUTBACK is 14 inches longer (& more stable) than the Tribute/Escape and 10 inches longer than the Santa Fe. The 2002 Ford Explorer is only 2" longer than the Outback, hard to believe. The Outback has 4 wheel disc brakes and the Tribute/Escape do not. Pickup and accleration are certainly decent. The Subaru Outback can cruise better and handle the road better and has a better top end than the other vehicles in this comparison plus it gets far superior gas mileage and is the clear winner in snow/ice conditions. Thus we chose the 2002 Subaru Outback, tried and true 2.5H 4 cylinder engine, auto transmission, All weather package (including heated seats), comfortable rear seats, a nice heavy duty cupped rubber mat for the rear cargo area. I feel I am getting the same vehicle for around $23k that would cost over 30k if I ordered the leather seats and 6 cylinder engine. In my mind, a great vehicle and even better value.
Perhaps this evaluation will help a few folks decide.
Jack - Ohio
thanks,
Bucky
Patti
A definite improvement over the photocopied instructions I received with the net....I will take a look at my OB tonight and give it a shot...I am sure that the hardest thing will be getting up the nerve to drill into a brand new car!
-tac
From day one the car has vibrated everytime I stop at a light or stop sign.
I can feel it in the mostly through the accelerator, then autoshifter and steering wheel.
I was told it would go away after the car broke in. Still vibrated at 24K KM. At 48K I had the major tune up, the car was in perfect tune according to the computer and it never vibrated so bad. Then they told me to use premium fuel. I told them I already was.
I'm now at 72K but the 20 other warrantee problems (actually over 20 according to Subaru Canada customer service)I had with the car has distracted me from the vibration. Now that they are out of the way I can resume my focus on this problem.
I would appreciate if anyone else could let me know if they've had this problem and how they solved it.
Thanks
Bucky - Downshift is normal. Its stated in the manual. This would help with braking especially in snow. I don't even notice it in my OB, maybe I have the modified TCU.
Alec - Good luck with your vibration. I can't imagine it's something a good mechanic can't fix. What were some of the other warrantee items?
Greg
Greg
-mike
-mike
Greg
For what it's worth, my other car is a 95 Accord EX Wagon (4 cylinder). The Accord seems a little bit more refined to me, but of course they don't sell the wagon in the US any more and no AWD.
On to the point. As I mentioned the Legacy is an L model with the 2.5L engine and automatic transmission. I have experienced what I would call shudder and what I've seen called stutter on this forum. It's just a couple of mild kicks, and then away we go.
I used to work on electric vehicles (mainly transit buses) and they had a similar problem. Eventually, we determined that what was happening was that the driveshaft would literally wind up when the accelerator was applied. The shudder was caused by the resonance of the system as the driveshaft unwound. I believe the mechanical engineers call this torsional force.
As is often the case, the solution to the mechanical problem was a software fix. In an electric vehicle is was straightforward to fix this. Without boring you any further, basically, we fed back a mirror image of the shudder to the torque regulator and it knocked it right out.
So I'm wondering if there are any firmware upgrades to the transmission control computer that help alleviate this annoyance. (I realize I'm comparing apples to oranges here.)
Also, I read in another message that someone had gotten around this problem by using premium fuel (93 octane). If that is true, it blows driveshaft winding theory totally out of the water. Personally, I'm so cheap that I'll just change my driving habits to avoid the shudder rather than buying premium fuel. :-)
As a post script, another way to induce shudder in some vehicles is to accelerate hard and then instantly release the accelerator. For you engineers out there, what your looking at is the step response of the system to a change in torque reference.
The dealer offered to sell the 2001Outback limited, demo car. The question is....How much should be taken off the sticker for a used car(even if it is only 6000 miles)? My understanding is once the car has some mileage, the cost goes down considerably. What would be a fair value? I know these cars hold their value. Thanks
Bucky
Splurge and buy an '02.
-mike
If the 2000 had offered it I might have gone for the OB Ltd with the coveted (by us) sun roofs and side air bags. I did so much want the sun roofs but in Canada the Ltd was (still is?) auto only, so I passed in favour of a regular OB with 5 spd and saved myself $$$ as well. Only in Canada, eh?
I hate that "running away downhill" feeling of automatics; I feel I don't have full control of the car when I'm on the brakes 50% of the time. There are many longish hills in Vancouver with a 50 kph limit where an unchecked automatic can hit 90-100 kph and there's photo radar halfway down. Oops, not any more...the new govt cancelled that. I can see that the feature might get in the way on the open road but in town it seems very handy. All you'd need is a switch to turn the feature on/off, like cruise.
Bucky10...why do you dislike it?
-mike
Thanks!
Patti
Thanks!
Patti
Next answer, Im not sure we want to splurge on a 2002, for the money, we'd probably get the Volvo cross country. The seats(which are very uncomfortable in any subaru), are one of the reasons. The Volvo is very comfortable.
Patti, make you seats more comfortable, the rest of the care is fabulous!!
Bucky
Bucky
bit
-mike
As for seats, I was concerned that the seats would be too firm and uncomfortable due to some postings here. However, it turns out that I really like them and now find that the seats in my Sienna are too soft.
Demo - doubt that demos get a good break in. That would be my #1 concern.
Greg
Thanks,
Greg
Just wanted some feedback...anyone own one of these? I'm in the market for a car, and according to Edmunds, for less than the price of a new Civic EX, I could get a low mileage 99 Legacy L and provide my family with a cargo car.
Consumer Reports and Edmunds both say reliable. That would be my main concern...and not just engine, but the nickel and dime stuff that can kill you (as with VW i.m.o.)
Thanks in advance
-mike
Concerning seats, I agree that the look and feel of the Volvo and Audi seats are much nicer, but I recently took a long trip in the VDC; the long term driving comfort was about the same as the Volvo, both excellent, but they just don't look as expensive, nor does the interior in general; I hate that woody looking plastic.
Mike from North Texas
Transmissions are really expensive to fix, recommend changing to synthetic fluids if available, and servicing religiously every 30K Miles.
Change timing belts on schedule, (Subaru makes a new stronger one) and make sure to change the cam and crankshaft seals at the same time to avoid duplicate repairs later (experience talking here).
OEM CV boots don't last much beyond 75,000 miles. One of the few inferior parts on Japanese cars. If left neglected in the winter with a leak, the entire drive axels have to be replaced.
Drain and fill the radiator yearly. It's twice the cost of a domestic radiator replacement.
If you want to use extended oil drains, go to synthetic and change the filters at least every 3,200 miles.
Change air filters often -- especially if you live in a dry climate.
Follow the severe maintenence schedule.
I have a 1991, and it generally still costs only about $600.00 a year in direct repairs and maintenence. This year it was a 120,000 mile checkup, replacement of brake, powersteering, and transmission fluids, and a solenoid.
I realize some of my recommendations may be controversal, but I found out about 8 years ago that the if it aint broke don't fix it philosophy was in the long run a lot more expensive. Like my transmission that had to be overhauled because the fluid was never replaced.
My ole Subie really loves the synthetic oil. Better gas mileage by 1-2 miles per gallon, smoother running, and easier starts.
I almost got a volvo but fled because of the costs (I knew they were higher but not by how much), I'd love to know the real costs.
Let me ramble just a little more. We have 7500 miles on the Bean now and I can't believe how this car handles. I'm not a professional driver by any means but I have had some pretty fair handling cars including a 911 porsche and a new 1963 3000MkII Austin Healy ( see I really am old), and I would put this car up against any of them. I can't explain it but there is just something about the rock solid stability of this car. I loved our 91 Honda wagon because of it's wonderful reliability but in the handling department it was a clunker compared to this car. I can understand why people get in trouble in winter. If I'm not careful I may get in trouble in summer. I'm of the opinion that if everyone had to drive a car for 3 months before making up their mind there would be twice as many OB's on the road, and that's saying something around here since about every 10th car is already a Sube. Guess I'm beginning to sound like a SOA rep so I'll quit.
Guy
Actually...the warranty probably won't cover about half of the things you mentioned (regular wear, services, fluids, timing belt replacement)...still would you recommend a warranty?
Actually, changing the oil at my Toyota dealer on my Supra was actually a few bucks more than on the Volvo, but that is all it ever was. The entire car was bullet proof. That is what I am hoping far on the Outback; so far so good.
Mike
Greg
-mike