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Comments
-Brian
Ross
Doug
Thx.
Craig - outstanding "pictorial". Your a brave person to do that work to your new car. But, I guess the OCD in me would force me to do it too if the window was off that much.
Greg
I don't think that Subaru wants to stay at this sales level, though. It's pretty hard to survive without spreading the costs more. They'll end up hawking GM clones if they don't achieve sales success on their own, that's my concern.
Brian: go take another look at Camry and Accord. Material quality has taken a nose-dive in the last 5 years or so. You do not get lit vanity mirrors until you step up to the top models. The headliners are cardboard covered with lint, and the carpets are thinner than they used to be. Goose neck hinges crush cargo in the trunk, and the hoods have cheap prop-rods. I compared them back-to-back, and then a 2nd time, since my wife is cross shopping all of them, and neither Camry or Accord is any better than the Legacy, maybe a little worse. The LL Bean Outback is closer to the ES300 than it is to the Camry.
The real surprise was the Koreans. The 2002 Sonata and Optima have articulating hinges for the trunk, struts to hold up the hood, padded headliners with cloth, and vanity mirrors. They put Camry and Accord to shame. I mean it. If you haven't seen a Korean car in the past 2 years, you'll have no idea what I'm talking about.
Build quality, OK, you may have a point.
Craig: I am proud of you, man! Those are great photos, and instructions too. You even added the little arrows. Subaru ought to hire you, their installation instructions are awful.
-juice
Greg
VWs do well in short-term surveys (JD Power IQ is just 90 days), but still cannot match Subaru (or Honda and Toyota) in long-term reliability. That would be my concern. It's love/hate, people love the nice materials but hate the problems that tend to creep up. So it's risky.
I like tried-and-true, so I'm with you on that one Greg. It would be nice to have both, though, but you really have to step up to Lexus price levels to get that.
-juice
The H6 Sedan is particularly sweet. AWD 6 cylinder sedan for the price of a 4 banger Audi AWD A4.
I think the Outback does better as a wagon because the logical Japanese competitors - Honda, Toyota and Mazda have abandoned the midsize wagon market.
Even without AWD, I think an Accord wagon or Camry Wagon (straight -- not dressed as Sport Utes like Highlander) would cut into the same market as the Legacy and OB Wagons.
Now that Mazda may come out with its midsize Mazda 6 as a wagon, it will be interesting to see how it effects Subaru wagon sales.
I think Subaru will be all right -- Honda and Toyota tried a few model years back to sell straight wagons and Subaru served them their heads -- the Subaru wagon just had too much of a head start and Honda and Toyota priced their wagons too high for the content.
The Mazda 6 looks attractive, though, so it could be more of a threat. People are already cross-shopping the Outback Sport vs. the Protoge5.
The H6 sedan is actually priced the same as an A4 quattro 1.8T auto. But once you add heated seats, metallic paint, and a moonroof to the Audi it's $2 grand more.
-juice
I don't know if it's universally true, but the American made Hondas (Accord, Civic) seem to be the worst. It's got nothing do do where they are manufactured, it just seems like those models are getting the most attention with cost cutting. I owned a 93 Civic EX coupe, and it was the last generation of Civic to have cast aluminum suspension parts all around (with double wishbone up front) and the "true" Honda interior quality. Once Honda started trying to compete with the Neon and Focus, they had to cut corners -- stamped steel suspension bits with a very lame design. The interiors are terrible now -- looks like they were designed by Fisher-Price. Even with good quality construction and assembly, the cars look and feel cheap. It's too bad.
VW definitely has some of the nicest interiors out there, but they are way too overpriced. No matter what VW I have looked at, I always come away in amazement. They want $25K for a GTI hatchback? I don't think so. You would have to want a VW real bad to pay that when you could slide into a WRX or RSX for the same or less money. And what they charge for the Passat wagon is outrageous. I don't get it.
I think Subaru is in a good position with its quality and pricing. I really think the current Outback interior is on par with the Honda of old. Most of the switches/controls are super silky and tight, and the materials are very good. Not Passat/Audi grade, but still very good. That you can get that level of quality -plus- AWD on a wagon that starts around $23K speaks volumes to Subaru's success. They are doing something right!
Craig
Don't forget the front wish bones on the Civic, RSX, and CR-V.
Subaru has been slowly adding content without increasing the price, and I like that. The Forester has added power mirrors, intermittent wipers, outside temp gauge, 2nd odometer, and cruise standard since I bought mine. The price is $300 higher 5 model years later, or less than inflation, never mind the extra content.
VW has had success offering more feature for more money. It's actually worked for them. But Piech hasn't been watching costs, so I bet they're in for a nice hangover in a year or two. Look at all the engines they have, many of them overlapping in power output. And $38k for a Passat (W8 or no, that's a lot of green). The Phaeton will hit the $60s.
-juice
thanks.
The H6 is more relaxed in the way it gets the job done, and you probably will recover a good portion of the extra cost at resale.
-juice
If you add the dimming mirror, cabin air filter, and security system upgrade to the Ltd wagon, its invoice is $1866 less than the Bean. However, the Bean comes with free maintenance for the first 3 years 36000 miles, which has some value to it. There are also minor details like the two-tone leather and wood steering wheel that probably add a few bucks. And all those LL Bean Logos are probably worth $3 to $4 a piece too, right? :-)
To me, the real difference between the cars comes down to the engine -- it's what defines the Bean and makes it distinctive from the Ltd.
I had a 2000 H4 Outback and recently moved up to a Bean. The difference between the two cars is night and day. If you do a more detailed comparison, I think you will find the H6 to be much quieter and smoother than the H4, and it definitely has a lot more power. You do have to be firm with the throttle, however, or Subaru's econ-minded auto transmission will make both engines seem like wimps (after a while, the transmission logic adjusts to your habits).
My H4 was a 5-spd, and of course the H6 is auto. Even with the handicap of the auto transmission, the H6 has a lot more pull all the way around. In fact, it has too much pull sometimes, and I am still getting used to it.
The H6 is definitely worth the extra clams if you ask me.
Craig
It took a while to finally push the engine (I like to baby my cars the first few months). Now I love flying down an on ramp and effortlessly merging into the pack. But, like someone mentioned, you need to respect the power and weight (3700lbs.+) of the car or it can over power you...
Some times an engine upgrade is as little as a $400 upgrade, but that's usually domestics.
-juice
Craig
But I'd still like to see the H6 offered at more accessible prices. $28,520 is the starting MSRP for an H6 sedan. And while that has a moonroof and leather, I bet a lot of folks would prefer to get just the engine without all the frills.
What about a base Outback wagon $23,420, add only the AWP ($500) and the H6 ($1200), for $25,120? Sounds like a deal, and that's MSRP. By the time you deal on it, you'll pay $23 grand. Now that's a bargain.
-juice
Craig
Thank you in advance
mike k
-juice
1. Edmunds says that from 2000 to 2001 the front rotors and calipers differs. Does anyone feel this change is substantial enough to lean towards the 2001.
2. Edmunds evaluation of the 2000 vs 2001 says the 2000 is not up to par in terms of quality control (interior rattles). Any comments?
By the way this board is extremely helpful!!!!
Edmunds' sample is so small it can't be considered significant. However, 2000 was the first year model, and the 2001 did get a few improvements.
-juice
One thing my service advisor mentioned during my last service (regarding the horrific chattering clutch problem) was that Subaru redesigned the clutch pack in the 01 models to be less prone to chattering in the cold. I can't imagine the 00's being any worse than my 01 in this respect, but his contention is that with the "redesigned" clutch, I should not be expereincing the problems with the clutch that I am. Just something to consider if you are looking at a 5 speed model...
The knock and metal rattling sound were distinct. As plain as I can put it: one was a classic engine knock sound and the other metal-on-metal rattling. The rattle was being masked by the knocking so I did not hear it unil the knocking stopped. The source of the metal rattling was identified as a loose heat sheild. It was tightened and the problem is gone.
Outback to GT.
I think new tires would help make the Outback handle better. Are the Bridgestone RE950's the best choice for performance plus all weather traction?
Do I need to move up to 17 inch wheels with a lower profile tire to get the better handling? Or just get the 16" tires for my current wheels?
I am trying to find that "fun-factor" again since my husband traded-in my OBS for a 2002 L.L. Bean in automatic. Autos are no darn fun, so I drive his 2001 Outback with a stick. Not quite the fun of my Impreza!!!!!!!! But no more Impreza's until my baby is in High School, since it is too tight a squeeze for her and her stroller, etc. So no WRX for me.
Anyway, if you drove a 2000 and up GT and the 2000 and up Outback I would like to know the difference in feel and fun factor and handling PLEASE, since I can not drive a GT.
I have the choice of trading in my husband's 2001 Outback for a GT, but not until I know for sure it is a huge difference in sports car fun compared with his car. If so I will order one TODAY.
Thanks again!
Heather
As I recall, the clutch was redesigned during the 2000 MY to increase force on the pressure plate. I think they made the change for models manufactured during Jan 2000 and later. Not sure if this is the same re-design you are talking about Brian.
Here's what I remember for changes going from the 2000 to 2001 MY for the base wagons:
- rear LSD became standard
- slightly bigger front rotors
- rear wiper became intermittant
- roof radio antenna replaced by in-glass antenna
- lighted vanity mirrors became standard
That's all I can think of. Some of these changes applied to all Outback wagons, some only to the base model. I never had any problems with the smaller rotors, so I wouldn't worry about that too much.
Craig
Only the limited outback and the GT wagon get the antenna in the glass.
Oh the Bean and the VDC. also have it in the glass.
Cheers Pat.
I left a message for the Service Manager, explaining what happened. We had fairly warm temperatures during the week it was in the shop. 30s to 50s. Now, at 18 degrees, and after the ECU has been upgraded, I'm having trouble again. I was also told that the 6 cylinder models are a little harder to start than the 4 cylinders. (I have a co-worker with an Outback Limited who has never, ever had trouble starting her wagon, no matter the temperature, no matter how long it has been sitting.)
I really don't think the car is quite right. Do you have any suggestions? And can you confirm that the ECU really was upgraded? Could it be something other than the ECU?
Thanks, Becky
Thanks
I have noticed a cold start problem with my Bean, but waiting for the fuel pump to prime always does the trick. The car starts right up.
I don't know if I agree with what the service manager told you about depressing the gas pedal -- this is likely to cause problems of its own. Try the priming trick, and let us know how it works.
Craig
Ross
By the way, I have the radio antenna in the glass in my base 02 Outback.
-mike
Ryan there should be no mystery in removing the mudflaps on your outback.
They are only held on with acouple of screws and plastic clips.
2 or 3 screws along the edge of the fender one plstic clip further into the wheelwell and one clip underneath up into the underside of the rocker panel.
Cheers Pat.
Chris: what about a heat gun, to bend them back a little farther from the tire?
Andrew: invoice is about right in the DC area, at least. The new ones use Bridgestone tires, even though the Firestones never had an actual problem (they were different than the ones on the Explorer), they changed it to avoid any bad press.
-juice
Becky
In my first dumb move of 2002, yesterday, after our first significant snow of the season, I was enjoying the prowess of my '02 base OB and got a little overconfident. The rear end swung out and clipped a curb. The wheel is scratched, but I'm more worried I could have bent something or thrown it out of alignment. Does anyone know how sensitive the rear alignment is? Should I get it checked?
Thanks,
David
You may want to touch-up paint the wheel, maybe just with a clearcoat, to keep it from corroding.
-juice
16 degrees - wish we had that here (NY) with some real snow. In my mind winter still hasn't arrived. :-(
Greg
David
The next generation ('92-96) Camry was a hog, and SW's were only available loaded. Prices soared, buyer ran the other direction. The wagon was discontinued two years later.
My base '02 OB wagon reminds me, at least in spirit, of the '90 Camry. All the right equipment, but nothing extra (no leather, sunroof, etc.). Acceptable power, good comfort & safety equipment (and AWD) for a decent price (in terms of today's automotive marketplace).
I hope that Subaru does not lose its way when they redesign the product for '03/'04.
Steve
Seriously though, if it just scraped don't worry about it, but if you bounced off of the curb I would get it aligned. Better than replacing 4 wheels.
David
-juice