The Outback line can be a bit confusing, so let's see if I can clear this up for you. We'll start with the wagons. The OB wagons come in four varieties: base, Limited, VDC, and LL Bean. The base is just that - very base. And it has very few options. You can't get many bells and whistles, so we'll skip it. The Limited is a nice wagon (my mother has one). However, it is only available with a 4-cylinder engine. It has a lot of nice stuff though - leather, dual moonroofs, heated seats, heater side mirrors, etc. It's available in either a manual or automatic transmission. It also has a standard HVAC system. The VDC and the LL Bean are the two "top-o-the-line" models in the wagon. Both come with the 6-cylinder engine. Unfortunately (in my book, at least), neither is available with a manual transmission. The LL Bean is, essentially, an Outback Limited wagon with a 6-cylinder engine, plus a few other add-ons (climate control, LL Bean logos, etc.). Finally, the VDC is similar to the LL Bean, in that it has the 6-cylinder engine. It also has a stability control system (the "VDC") and a McIntosh stereo system.
The sedan comes in three flavors: Limited, 3.0, and VDC. Like the Limited wagon, the Limited sedan has a 4-cylinder engine. In fact, aside from the second sunroof over the back seats, the Limited sedan and Limited wagon are pretty much the same. As a bonus, however, the sunroof in the sedan actually opens all the way (the front sunroof in the wagon only tilts). Note, however, that the Limited sedan (and all Outback sedans, actually) does not come with a manual transmission. The 3.0 sedan has the 6-cylinder engine, but is otherwise similar to the Limited sedan (no climate control; basic sound system, no VDC). The VDC sedan is just like the VDC wagon, but with only one sunroof.
As far as capacities go, I don't know where you read that the sedan and wagon have the same capacities. According to cars.com, the wagon has 34 cu.ft. of cargo space (with the seats up) while the sedan has only 12 cu.ft. The wagon can max out at 68 cu.ft. by putting the back seats down, but the back seats of the sedan are stationary. The wagon is 3" longer (187.4" vs. 184.4") and 5" higher (63.3" vs. 58.3"). The wagon also weighs about 85 lbs. more (3,715 lbs. vs. 3,630 lbs.).
Thanks Brian for speaking for the GT. Great ca. Love mine. Perhaps the 1 inch less ground clearance might be worth noting in Michigan but fun to drive.
We have both a Forester & OB Ltd and I agree with the two prevoius responses. To me it boils down to whether you are looking for more "fun quotient" in your driving versus a more laid back comfortable ride and slightly more cargo capacity. What I mean is that I love to whip my wife's Forester around a turn and it responds like a champ. The OB, on the other hand, is more of a comfort cruiser - quiet and refined. Based upon what you have told us (and primarily because you say you have 4 dogs), I would seriously look at either the Bean or the VDC. For me, the only regret that I have is NOT buying one of the 6 cylinder models. Sure, the 4 cylinder gets the job done but I have to believe that the Bean has got to be a heck of alot more fun to drive with not very much tradeoff in terms of gas mileage. Just my $.02. Ron
"you can get heated seats & mirrors and the front wiper deicer in the base model Outback too in the All Weather package."
Yeah, I know, but overall there aren't a ton of bells and whistles available on the base like Lee was asking for. No leather, no sunroofs. It's pretty blah all things considered. I should know - I have one.
The Legacy GT sedan and wagon are schweet! I love them, and in retrospect I wish I would've gotten one instead of the Outback. That said, I still find the 2.5L 4-cylinder a bit underpowered for the Outback/Legacy line. I'd really like to see them drop the 3.0 H-6 into the Legacy GT line. Until then, I think I'd take (money no object here) the VDC sedan or wagon over anything else.
Hmm, you're gonna haul 4 dogs in there frequently, each one 70 lbs? OK, forget the luxury models.
I say choose between a Forester L and a Legacy L. I don't think the dogs will fully appreciate those moonroofs. ;-)
Now, between those two, I say Forester. Why? Because the seat folds flat in a jiffy. On the Legacy, you have to fold the seat bottom first, then the seat backs. It's only one extra step, but try that with 4 dogs jumping all over you, and you might appreciate how quickly the Forester adapts to your needs.
The extra ground clearance is a bonus in the snow. It's a couple hundres pounds lighter (read: more fun), and it has a higher payload rating for carrying all those pups and their gear.
Just so everyone knows (sorry for taking so long to get caught up) - -
If there is not an immediate solution, does not mean that we (SOA) are turning a blind eye to situations. We evaluate a ton of data to find solutions. No, I have not had this concern in my vehicles, but I recognize that it is important to folks.
Please bear in mind that Subaru is a small company. With some of our current Service Programs (alternators, flashing ECU's, air flow sensors, etc.), they are the result of a lot of investigation. These are not issues that we expect customer's to "take on the chin". Sometimes, it just takes awhile to figure out what the cause and repair might be.
I understand your frustration. I really encourage everyone to start a case with us (1-800-SUBARU3). This does not promise an immediate solution, but you are on record then and it's more data that we can use to find a solution. We won't leave you high and dry.
I'm sorry for the problem, but I'm committed to the company because they've proven their goal for customer satisfaction to me.
I am (still) thinking about my 1st Subie and am leaning towards a manual Legacy/OB as I like the idea of the 50/50 torque split over the 90/10 on the auto. What are the driving differences (if any) between the auto and manual? I have driven a rental auto OB and it kind of "feels" like a FWD car under normal conditions. And I believe the manual will get a little bit more out of the H4. Haven't drive a manual yet so it would nice to hear from you all out there with a manual.
Also getting a little concerned about the manual after reading the posts about clutch chatter...
feilo, I have the 5M and like it a lot. I've always been a manual transmission guy and feel like it is more fun and adds to the driving experience. I haven't driven an auto Outback, but I've heard that the manual makes it feel more peppy. It's also a blast in the snow. The controlled slides you can get are a lot of fun. Maybe it's just me, but this seems more fun with a stick! As far as the clutch chatter goes, I've had minor chatter on occasion, but it hasn't been a deal breaker to me.
Hi Patti, I appreciate your concern regarding this, but somehow your concern has not trickled down to my local dealer who does not seem to care about solving this problem. They make a sad face every 3000 miles when I bring it up, but are otherwise unwilling to take any steps toward correcting the problem. I filed a case using the 1-800 subaru3 number at your request a few months ago, but they were unable to have anyone look at the car at the time and I let it slide for a while...it's been 33000 miles so far, what's a few more.
As far as the driving experience goes, I didn't even consider the AT version when I was buying; I had rented an OB (with the AT) for a week prior to my purchase and fell in love with the car but it felt a little pokey with the AT. Had I known what a nightmare SUbaru's clutches were, though, I would have gladly chosen the AT version.
I know there are plenty of people who have had no problems with their clutches, but take it from someone who has dealt with this hellish clutch for a year and a half -- there is no easy fix out there and your dealer won't care.
I'm glad Subaru is aware of the problem and is even possibly thinking about ways to fix their crummy clutches, but I'm not sure how long they think their customers will put up with the problem before they abandon Subaru altogether.
This is a great car and it suits my needs perfectly, but I would strongly caution anyone thinking about a MT version to think twice. If you get stuck with a dud, it's next to impossible to remedy the situation.
My biggest problem with the clutch chatter situation has been the resolution of the issue with the dealership. On my first visit, the dealer acknowledged the problem and stated that Subaru knew about the problem and were working on a fix. When I asked if the dealer could notify me when the fix was available, he stated that instead, I needed to keep checking back. On my second visit, the clutch problem suddenly became "normal operation" according to the dealer. If everyone on this board reported chattering on their clutches and I experienced it during a test drive of the vehicle, then I could buy "normal operation". I am patient and I understand that some problems take time to sort out but I get the impression from the dealer that this problem has been written off by Subaru.
Patti, I appreciate your advice in starting a case report and I will take it.
So, my '01 OB wagon shudders sometimes when I'm in first and just letting off the clutch to move forward. I can rev the engine to 5000 RPM sometimes and it still shudders on take off. Is THAT clutch chatter? If so, I'd say "chatter" is a bit of an understatement/misnomer.
I just put a hitch on my 01 LLBean-piece of cake but I can't find where to plug in the harness wiring. Anyone know where to look? I have checked in both rear lamp access panels and in the spare tire cavity. Thanks Tim
No, I'm not drag racing. I just thought that I was getting the "chatter" because I wasn't reving high enough and the car was stalling out, so I would rev it higher ... as high as 5000 rpm.
I am looking at a '98 legacy to replace an '88 volvo dl. I have a teen-age son and his friends and the legroom for the bench seat looks really uncomfortable. Has anyone experienced this firsthand with bigger kids?--who are not driving yet.
Yup, took 2nd place in Gruppe G @ the NASA Auto-x today. It normally runs in Guppe H but since I'm going for points in G I bumped it up to G so my points would count. Came in 2nd behind a modified 5MT Acura Integra GSR.
I'm 5' 8", in my 98 Legacy wagon, there is a ton of room in the back behind my seat. If you are taller and like to drive with your arms fully streteched that may be a different matter. IIRC from experience with an 850 sedan, there is as much leg space if not more in the legacy in the back, not as wide though. Bring one of them and try the car out for size!
I'm still looking at a MY 2000 LTD OB and have a question: can anyone suggest any modifications to the suspension on a MY 2000 to improve the ride? Or better yet, has anyone done such an improvement/modification?
The car has the original tires and will replace with better rubber but just wondering about the suspension. The tires were overpressurized to keep from flat-spotting on the dealer's lot so that may have had some influence on the quality of the ride when I test drove the car.
Yes overinflated tires will have a SIGNIFICANT impact on ride. For instance when I race my XT6 I run close to 50psi and the ride is ROCK HARD, but once I air them down to normal levels for street driving, it is significantly smoother.
My 2000 Legacy has 44k. The trans fluid was changed at 30k and I'm thinking of doing it again at 44k and had some questions for the board.
1) First of all, are there any real benefits to changing the trans fluid every 15k 2) Since you can only drain about 1/2 the fluid, I was thinking of draining and filling, driving for a week and then do another drain/fill and filter change. I would think that after the 2nd drain/fill I'd have changed most of the fluid. Comments? 3) I now have a non-synthetic trans fluid. Can a synthetic be mixed with it and are there any problems with doing so
5000rpm is a bit much. Remember the clutch absorbs the difference between the engine speed (high) and the road speed (zero).
Tim: in the Forester, it was in the spare tire well.
The '98 Legacy is fairly roomy, the 2000 and later models even more so. It's the Forester that is a bit tight.
Way to go, paisan. I bet you got a lot of dumb stares by the competitors you dusted in that raised wagon.
15k seems like overkill for ATF. But I'd do a full flush at a shop that has the machines to do so (i.e. replace all the fluid), and maybe every 30k or even 60k miles.
Shane - I have an 01 ob wagon and just changed the tires to Dunlop SP Sport A2's (from the original Firestones) and have noticed a huge improvement in the ride quality and handling.
The Firestones (or any tire, I guess) at high pressure will ride horribly. My dealer always insists on inflating the tires to 40psi when it's in for service and the car rides amazingly hard afterward. I always adjust the pressure back down to the mfr specs (30/29) the next morning and the car rides great.
I've had the Dunlops on for about 1000 miles now and I'm completely happy with the improvement they have made, especially on the highway. Expansion joints and sharp impacts are now totally smothered, rather than transmitted right up through the car as with the Firestones.
Start with adjusting the pressure, then look at new rubber...the ride should be excellent.
I had my time(s) with the OB improved/shaved by ~10 sec. on those 17" OZ wheels, but... I still got beat by "The Boat" (aka Caprice Classic Wagon) ;-) Tells me that the driver needs plenty of improvement(s) and mod(s).
If you don't get any snow, my Nitto NT460 tires are the quietest I've ever driven on. They are OK for dry or wet, but not snow. And I have the exact size the new Outbacks use, 225/60R16.
Ditto what Brian said about the Dunlops. I have a new set of Sport A2s also and really like them. I run them at 35 PSI. Great in the rain so far. Very quiet (some whirring when cornering somewhat hard). Just hope they are decent in the snow (I know, I know - I should get dedicated snows!)
I have an 02 Outback, and with the Bridgestone Potenza tires that are now standard, I'm very pleased with the handling and ride. I suppose that Subaru may have switched from the Firestone Wilderness tires around the time those tires got so much negative publicity with the Explorer affair. An unintended consequence may be a better-performing tire.
I purchased those Dunlops partly because you were so happy with them on your outback. I also considered the Pilot XGT-H4's, but they were $30 at tire more than the dunlops and I was still reeling from the $600 service from the dealer a few weeks ago (30K and alignment) so I went with the Sport A2's instead. As long as they don't suck in the snow, they will prove to be fantastic tires!
Just wanted to chime in regarding the choice of a Subaru model for hauling hounds. I purchased an LLBean approximately 8 weeks ago after a fair amount of research....I routinely take a pair of Golden Retriever/German Shephard mixes along with me(93&74lbs apiece).
I love this car! I had the dog guard installed and this has been useful in keeping the hounds at bay. The space with the guard in place has been sufficient. With all 4 dogs at the same time, you will most likely be folding the rear seat back forward.
The choice of a leather interior has been a sound one. My wife has a Taurus wagon with a fabric interior..the fur sticks a lot. Leather is easier to maintain.
The base question may boil down to which trim level of Outback do you want. The leather package comes with the Outback Limited, Bean and VDC.
BTW, you have come to the right place for advice on this and any Subaru related subject. The folks here are helpful and most supportive.
Great to hear so much good advice from you all, a big thanks to everyone. I suspected that different rubber and psi would help some or perhaps a whole bunch. I'm coming very close to getting this car now I think. Of course, someone else had me look at a leftover '02 Arctic white (which I really like) Forester S with sunroof and that's a beauty. Oh the decisions, but I've never been one to make a decision in a hurry.
Thanks again and when I decide and put those new tires on (would need them anyway) I'll let you know how I make out.
Comments
The sedan comes in three flavors: Limited, 3.0, and VDC. Like the Limited wagon, the Limited sedan has a 4-cylinder engine. In fact, aside from the second sunroof over the back seats, the Limited sedan and Limited wagon are pretty much the same. As a bonus, however, the sunroof in the sedan actually opens all the way (the front sunroof in the wagon only tilts). Note, however, that the Limited sedan (and all Outback sedans, actually) does not come with a manual transmission. The 3.0 sedan has the 6-cylinder engine, but is otherwise similar to the Limited sedan (no climate control; basic sound system, no VDC). The VDC sedan is just like the VDC wagon, but with only one sunroof.
As far as capacities go, I don't know where you read that the sedan and wagon have the same capacities. According to cars.com, the wagon has 34 cu.ft. of cargo space (with the seats up) while the sedan has only 12 cu.ft. The wagon can max out at 68 cu.ft. by putting the back seats down, but the back seats of the sedan are stationary. The wagon is 3" longer (187.4" vs. 184.4") and 5" higher (63.3" vs. 58.3"). The wagon also weighs about 85 lbs. more (3,715 lbs. vs. 3,630 lbs.).
FWIW, the '03 Legacy 2.5GT (wagon and sedan) comes with a sportshift automatic transmission and VTD.
-Brian
bit
To me it boils down to whether you are looking for more "fun quotient" in your driving versus a more laid back comfortable ride and slightly more cargo capacity. What I mean is that I love to whip my wife's Forester around a turn and it responds like a champ. The OB, on the other hand, is more of a comfort cruiser - quiet and refined. Based upon what you have told us (and primarily because you say you have 4 dogs), I would seriously look at either the Bean or the VDC.
For me, the only regret that I have is NOT buying one of the 6 cylinder models. Sure, the 4 cylinder gets the job done but I have to believe that the Bean has got to be a heck of alot more fun to drive with not very much tradeoff in terms of gas mileage.
Just my $.02.
Ron
Yeah, I know, but overall there aren't a ton of bells and whistles available on the base like Lee was asking for. No leather, no sunroofs. It's pretty blah all things considered. I should know - I have one.
The Legacy GT sedan and wagon are schweet! I love them, and in retrospect I wish I would've gotten one instead of the Outback. That said, I still find the 2.5L 4-cylinder a bit underpowered for the Outback/Legacy line. I'd really like to see them drop the 3.0 H-6 into the Legacy GT line. Until then, I think I'd take (money no object here) the VDC sedan or wagon over anything else.
Hmm, you're gonna haul 4 dogs in there frequently, each one 70 lbs? OK, forget the luxury models.
I say choose between a Forester L and a Legacy L. I don't think the dogs will fully appreciate those moonroofs. ;-)
Now, between those two, I say Forester. Why? Because the seat folds flat in a jiffy. On the Legacy, you have to fold the seat bottom first, then the seat backs. It's only one extra step, but try that with 4 dogs jumping all over you, and you might appreciate how quickly the Forester adapts to your needs.
The extra ground clearance is a bonus in the snow. It's a couple hundres pounds lighter (read: more fun), and it has a higher payload rating for carrying all those pups and their gear.
Happy shopping.
-juice
If there is not an immediate solution, does not mean that we (SOA) are turning a blind eye to situations. We evaluate a ton of data to find solutions. No, I have not had this concern in my vehicles, but I recognize that it is important to folks.
Please bear in mind that Subaru is a small company. With some of our current Service Programs (alternators, flashing ECU's, air flow sensors, etc.), they are the result of a lot of investigation. These are not issues that we expect customer's to "take on the chin". Sometimes, it just takes awhile to figure out what the cause and repair might be.
I understand your frustration. I really encourage everyone to start a case with us (1-800-SUBARU3). This does not promise an immediate solution, but you are on record then and it's more data that we can use to find a solution. We won't leave you high and dry.
I'm sorry for the problem, but I'm committed to the company because they've proven their goal for customer satisfaction to me.
Hang in there and please start a case!
Patti
Also getting a little concerned about the manual after reading the posts about clutch chatter...
I have the 5M and like it a lot. I've always been a manual transmission guy and feel like it is more fun and adds to the driving experience. I haven't driven an auto Outback, but I've heard that the manual makes it feel more peppy. It's also a blast in the snow. The controlled slides you can get are a lot of fun. Maybe it's just me, but this seems more fun with a stick!
I appreciate your concern regarding this, but somehow your concern has not trickled down to my local dealer who does not seem to care about solving this problem. They make a sad face every 3000 miles when I bring it up, but are otherwise unwilling to take any steps toward correcting the problem. I filed a case using the 1-800 subaru3 number at your request a few months ago, but they were unable to have anyone look at the car at the time and I let it slide for a while...it's been 33000 miles so far, what's a few more.
As far as the driving experience goes, I didn't even consider the AT version when I was buying; I had rented an OB (with the AT) for a week prior to my purchase and fell in love with the car but it felt a little pokey with the AT. Had I known what a nightmare SUbaru's clutches were, though, I would have gladly chosen the AT version.
I know there are plenty of people who have had no problems with their clutches, but take it from someone who has dealt with this hellish clutch for a year and a half -- there is no easy fix out there and your dealer won't care.
I'm glad Subaru is aware of the problem and is even possibly thinking about ways to fix their crummy clutches, but I'm not sure how long they think their customers will put up with the problem before they abandon Subaru altogether.
This is a great car and it suits my needs perfectly, but I would strongly caution anyone thinking about a MT version to think twice. If you get stuck with a dud, it's next to impossible to remedy the situation.
Brian
Concerned about the clutch? Look at it this way, you pay $770 extra at invoice for the automatic. That buys two clutches.
And what about the clutches that don't show those symptoms? It's not fair to generalize and say they're all like that. Most aren't.
-juice
Patti, I appreciate your advice in starting a case report and I will take it.
Thanks,
Bill
-mike
Clutch chatter is when clutch engagement is not smooth no matter how much you let it slip, the chatter being the shake in the drivetrain.
-juice
Anyone know where to look? I have checked in both rear lamp access panels and in the spare tire cavity.
Thanks
Tim
-mike
-mike
I'm glad you enjoyed the spin in the OB.:D
I had plenty of fun today with it.
It's a world of difference with less meat on the wheels. ;-)
-Dave
-mike
The car has the original tires and will replace with better rubber but just wondering about the suspension. The tires were overpressurized to keep from flat-spotting on the dealer's lot so that may have had some influence on the quality of the ride when I test drove the car.
Thanks,
Shane.
-mike
1) First of all, are there any real benefits to changing the trans fluid every 15k
2) Since you can only drain about 1/2 the fluid, I was thinking of draining and filling, driving for a week and then do another drain/fill and filter change. I would think that after the 2nd drain/fill I'd have changed most of the fluid. Comments?
3) I now have a non-synthetic trans fluid. Can a synthetic be mixed with it and are there any problems with doing so
Chuck
Air down and try it again.
Ron
Tim: in the Forester, it was in the spare tire well.
The '98 Legacy is fairly roomy, the 2000 and later models even more so. It's the Forester that is a bit tight.
Way to go, paisan. I bet you got a lot of dumb stares by the competitors you dusted in that raised wagon.
15k seems like overkill for ATF. But I'd do a full flush at a shop that has the machines to do so (i.e. replace all the fluid), and maybe every 30k or even 60k miles.
-juice
-mike
-juice
The Firestones (or any tire, I guess) at high pressure will ride horribly. My dealer always insists on inflating the tires to 40psi when it's in for service and the car rides amazingly hard afterward. I always adjust the pressure back down to the mfr specs (30/29) the next morning and the car rides great.
I've had the Dunlops on for about 1000 miles now and I'm completely happy with the improvement they have made, especially on the highway. Expansion joints and sharp impacts are now totally smothered, rather than transmitted right up through the car as with the Firestones.
Start with adjusting the pressure, then look at new rubber...the ride should be excellent.
I still got beat by "The Boat" (aka Caprice Classic Wagon) ;-)
Tells me that the driver needs plenty of improvement(s) and mod(s).
-Dave
-mike
-juice
Greg
Just wanted to chime in regarding the choice of a Subaru model for hauling hounds. I purchased an LLBean approximately 8 weeks ago after a fair amount of research....I routinely take a pair of Golden Retriever/German Shephard mixes along with me(93&74lbs apiece).
I love this car! I had the dog guard installed and this has been useful in keeping the hounds at bay. The space with the guard in place has been sufficient. With all 4 dogs at the same time, you will most likely be folding the rear seat back forward.
The choice of a leather interior has been a sound one. My wife has a Taurus wagon with a fabric interior..the fur sticks a lot. Leather is easier to maintain.
The base question may boil down to which trim level of Outback do you want. The leather package comes with the Outback Limited, Bean and VDC.
BTW, you have come to the right place for advice on this and any Subaru related subject. The folks here are helpful and most supportive.
Tom
Thanks again and when I decide and put those new tires on (would need them anyway) I'll let you know how I make out.
Shane.
I let Hypov hold the 2nd place trophy by his car!
Dave in action!
-mike
-mike
-mike
I love SVX, if for no other reason than it's so rare. You hardly ever see one around here.
230hp/230lbs torque 156mph top speed
yum yum
-mike