Subaru Outback VDC

robnis · April 2001

A friend told me about the defective tires on the Subaru! Good ole Firestone strikes again. I hope they replace the tires with Michelin tires. Let's get back to a safe tire. I am going to buy either a VDC or an Acura TL this summer. The bad PR about the tires will force me to require Michelins or NO DEAL! I can then go back to the TL as my car.

Anyone else hear about the serious problem with the Firestones on the Subaru Outback Wagons?

pattim3 · April 2001

Just from my perspective - one of the functions of my "regular" job is reviewing cases that come into us from a QA perspective. We have had NO verified complaints of Firestone tire issues. Since our "Wilderness" tires are passenger car tires, (they are badge "Wilderness" for the look), they haven't been involved in any recalls. We have had contacts regarding the tires. Two complaints I was aware of made us replace the tires and call them in for inspection. The first one had some serious sidewall damage (curb) and the other had a spike (not a nail) embedded in the tread.

As far as the bad PR, I'm not sure what we will do for the future. Right now, with Firestone being under so much Govt. pressure, they are probably producing some of the safest tires on the road. But, Subaru is very conscious of their image, so it may change soon.

That's about what I know.

Patti

alex1298 · April 2001

Several articles posted on Subaru.com indicate that only the light-truck "Wilderness" tires were recalled last year. My concern from the news piece I saw last night is the possibility of Firestone recalling ALL 16" Wilderness tires. I am assuming this would also include the ones on the VDC... Did anyone else see the report?

Thank you,
Al

ateixeira · April 2001

I doubt they would recall all. Wilderness are an entire series of tires, almost a brand name itself.

They were probably referring to the 16" truck tires that go on Explorers.

-juice

bsw614 · April 2001

I am interested in purchasing a VDC,but would be grateful for any information on where I could get invoice price or better in the New York Area. many thanks, bsw614. How also do you know if the EMC problem is corrected?

rsholland · April 2001

at the NY Auto Show was riding on Bridgestone Protenzas, not Firestone Wilderness tires. I bet the Bridgestones will show up on all future Outbacks.

Bob

subaru_team · April 2001

I hope this answers your question. If not, let me know?:

The VTD remains ON regardless of VDC on or off.
Therefore the 45/55 power bias remains the same under "Steady State" driving. It changes based on traction of the road surface or slippery conditions.

Patti

rsholland · April 2001

That's good news, in that from a performance driving standpoint, a slightly rearward power bias is usually preferred.

Bob

j_walker · April 2001

Why would the tires dictate which car you buy? If you want the VDC but unsure about the tires, why don't you just replace the tires? It's only a few hundred dollars for the extra peace of mind.

nygreg · April 2001

Try sending out e-mails through the subaru.com website first - asking them what VDCs they have and what their best deal is. They are most flexible with cars they have on the lot already. I know Mike (paisan) highly recommends Ira from Staten Island Sub. Mike - any input???? If you go there, make sure you mention Mike's name from Edmunds so that he gets some credit. So as to not step out of bounds, you might want to wait for Mike to respond here.

Good Luck,
-Greg

rsholland · April 2001

Tires, like anything else, can influence the purchase decision. Why go through the extra effort, and/or spend extra $ if you don't have to.

Bob

tinoman1 · April 2001

I currently have a mazda tribute on order - but having difficulty getting it and now bad crash test results for this & ford escape. It seems that the bean models can be had for about 27k is that right?? also any issues with the rear legroom - I hear its tight?? also with the seats down - is it able to hold as much as an suv?

thanks for any help in advance

rsholland · April 2001

The crash results for the Escape/Tribute really shouldn't be too surprising. Both are SUVs, and aren't subject to the more strenuous crash testing that cars must pass in order to be sold here. ALL Subarus are "cars," and therefore will do better than any SUV.

Yes, LL Bean models can be had for around $27K. You may(?) have to go out of state to find that price though. Fitzgerald's AutoMall Subaru dealer is in White Flint Maryland, just outside of Washington. They do a lot of out-of-state sales though. I would check them out. All their current vehicles are listed with bottom-line prices.

http://www.fitzgeraldautomall.com/

The rear leg room is pretty good. You'll need to check it out for yourself. There's certainly less "vertical" room in the Outback than the Tribute. On the other hand, I think, there's more "front-to-rear" room than the Tribute has.

Lastly, the Subaru has a better AWD system than does the Tribute. The Tribute's system is on-demand, meaning it is really front-wheel-drive until it senses slippage, then the rear wheels kick in. Think of it as "re-active." All Subarus have power to all wheels, all the time. The front-to-rear percentage varies depending on driving conditions. Think of it as "pro-active."

Bob

tinoman1 · April 2001

thanks for the good advice

robnis · April 2001

Thanks for your note. Actually I am in a Catch-22. My current lease expires in July. My car is NOT being made (SHO) and I must opt for another. Having done a tremendous amount of research (and especially appreciated Edmunds site), I have come to the following conclusion. I like two vehicles! They are the Acura TL and the Subaru VDC
but I am only going to purchase one. The TL gives me great 0-60 time (6.7), Xenon headlights, a sporty drive, memory seat, and 6 disk in dash cd player. PLUS, it can be bought for $27,995 from AutoByTel! It has everything I want, except for the security of AWD. The Subaru VDC, has a great capability in snow and in rain. And I can also take more stuff (like when I have to help move my 24 year old daughter to another apartment). Further, FitzGerald's will sell me the BDC with everything (KYA, 1YA L6D packages for $29,230. Thus I am caught. I could wait for the Audi A4 (but who wants to pay for German maintenance)! And I could wait for the new X Jag (but you know JAG quality control). I am at an impasse. I even thought of getting the TL and then a cheap old slow 2.5 Subaru for winter.

Obviously, the adherents to this Subaru VDC forum are biased (as I would expect) and loyal to their product. Those at the Acura TL would be likewise. Basing it on $, my decision would be for the TL. Based upon warranty, the decision should be TL. Based upon sportiness and 0-60 times, my decision should be TL. Based upon insurance costs (I checked with Hartford), the choice should be TL. But when I think snow/rain, it is a no brainer and I think that the VDC is the only way to go. Too bad the vehicle does not have Xenon headlights, a 6 disk in dash cd player, memory seats, and a 4/50 warranty. I'd opt for that even though it takes just about 9 seconds (8.8) to go 0-60.

I will apreciate your thoughts and any others as well and earnestly consider them.

Thanks! Bob

theob · April 2001

Thanks Patti,
Sounds to me like the Edmunds review of the VDC sedan at the NY Auto Show was wrong when it said the switch was for deep snow. The VTD is what really gets you out of things like deep snow or sand, correct? The only thing I can think of where the VDC would interfere would be rocking. If your're that bad off, you would already be stuck in any other vehicle!
Theo

rsholland · April 2001

Obviously you've done your homework. I think your observations are pretty much spot on.

Having said that, I'd probably still opt for the Subaru. Why? I've had many Hondas (FWD) and we now have 2 Subarus. To me, the AWD is the clincher. The system is just so superior to anything else, I'd be willing to sacrifice the benefits of the Acura to get it.

BTW, for 2002, the Outback sedan will be getting the H-6 and VDC too. That gives you another choice. Should be out late this summer.

Bob

ateixeira · April 2001

Told ya, Bob. :-)

Howard: the Escape/Tribute is a good value for the price, but it seems like they cut corners in build quality (6 recalls already) and now in safety.

Further to Bob's post, the Escape does not have a center diffy, so the AWD cannot remain engaged all the time. It's meant for slippery surfaces only, so it still feels like FWD 95% of the time.

To the other Bob: the TL is a fine vehicle. Let yours needs determine whether FWD or AWD better fits your needs. I think the TL lacks character, but it's luxurious and a great value at its price.

-juice

robnis · April 2001

Thanks to Bob and Juice for your replies to my "Catch-22". Hopefully there will be a few more observations as well.

Bob

jim235 · April 2001

I live at the end of a steep winding dirt road. The road recently spent a week in spring breakup with slush and ice up to 8-10" resulting in vehicles sliding into ditches or being stranded. For the first time, the VDC light stayed on for prolonged periods while attempting the drive up. Most of the time it seemed to help somewhat (I think) by reducing sideways sliding but a few times it seemed counterproductive in that it slowed the car and caused some loss of momentum.

Once on one steep hair pin turn covered with thick deep slush with an ice and water covered base it cut power totally and stopped the vehicle on its own. Once stopped I was afraid I was going nowhere, but it managed to start forward again w/no problem. Shortly thereafter my wife, who was driving our old 4WD Subaru wagon with special snow/ice Arctic Alpine tires, came home and said she had slid around a lot coming up the road and that the road was the worst she had seen it. Unfortunately I didn't test drive our old Subaru myself to compare the handling of the two under identical situations. (The VDC does however still have the stock tires and I expect substantially better snow/ice handling with tires designed for these conditions).

Overall I'm very glad I went with the VDC, rather than the Bean which slides much more easily even on flat ground - or a basic Legacy which slides much more than a Bean. My Honda Civic, which I dearly love, couldn't get out of the driveway that week, even with Blizzak snow/ice tires on. The deep slush (in combination with shallow clearance) underlain with water on ice on a steep driveway was too much for it.

Comparing a Subaru VDC and an Acura seems like comparing apples and oranges. It depends on where you live, what conditions you expect to drive it in, and what you are looking for. If you're looking for a good to moderate weather reliable fun luxury sporty car the Acura is probably what you want. If you're looking for a great all around car that fun to drive, great in any weather, and safe as any, you probably want the VDC. I'd also try them both out on a test drive and get a good feel for each; you may find something you love about one and hate about the other. Best of Luck!

pattim3 · April 2001

I'd love to come play in your driveway. It sounds like a great way to really put the VDC through its paces.

Thanks for sharing your experiences.

Patti

oclvframe · April 2001

I too had contemplated buying a Tribute. I realy liked the way it drove...I just could not get past the crappy workmanship and cheap feel of all the interior components (this was on a loaded ESV6 4WD!). Once I drove the Subaru, it was a hands down winner.

BTW I got my Bean for invoice here in Atlanta...it came with 6-cd changer, subwoofer, rear differential protector, cargo mat and net, and spoiler. I drove it out the door for 30K including tag, tax...etc.

Questions for jim235: How can you substantiate your comment regarding how one vehicle will slide much more easily than another on flat ground? Have you proved this yourself testing different vehicles in the same setting? I know the VDC is designed to avoid a slide or loss of control, but how does a Bean track better than a Legacy? Esp when the Legacy sits closer to the ground with lower profile tires, I would imagine it has better ground holding ability.

nematode · April 2001

Get the 01 TL AND then get a 1996-97 Impreza Wagon 2.2 5spd for snow. If you then had a turbo installed on the 2.2.......you would be my hero.

jim235 · April 2001

I tried all 3 vehicles plus a basic Outback in a large empty theater parking lot that was covered in ice with a couple inches of snow on top. All were tested on the same day except the VDC which was tested about one month later under what appeared to be very similar conditions. I did tight circles and turns about as fast as I felt I could w/o endangering the cars I was driving and nearby periodic light poles. The basic Legacy could not hold well and made very large sweeping turns well beyond its turning radius. I assume it did so poorly because it lacked a Limited Slip Differential which the basic Outback and Bean did have. Possibly the different tires may have been a factor, but I didn't think the tires on the Outback's did well on ice; possibly the Legacy's could have been worse and could have been a factor as well. I would have liked to have tried the GT but there was none available. The basic Outback made large sweeping circles and sloppy turns but was still much tighter than the basic Legacy. The Bean appeared to perform slightly better than the basic Outback but I have no idea why this should be the case. The VDC was substantially better than the Bean in doing tight circles that appeared to be roughly the same as its turning radius and turns had noticeably less slippage, despite the tires. None did very well in braking on the ice, largely I believe because of their tires.

robnis · April 2001

Push is coming to shove as I will soon have to put in my order (if necessary) on my next car. While my lease is ove in July, the miles will be at the max out by mid June. Does anyone know of any changes on the 2002 Outback VDC beside these:

new Outback Sedan VDC
off switch of the VDC (nice)
different tires (forget the Firestones)!
rumored additional color/s
others?????

Thanks for your thoughts. I way hoping against hope that SUbaru would give us the nice Xenon, or HID lights, a 6 disk in dash changer, a variable rear window wiper, and memory seats. I can get all of these in the CHEAPER Acura TL. The only thing I would really miss is the AWD. Subaru, give a guy a break and add a couple of the features so I can get a 2002 on order!

ghudetz · April 2001

I looked under the hood of my '01 VDC, popped off the fuse box lid, and noticed that there is a (currently open) jumper named "VDC OFF (FWD)" in the diagram in the lid. Can anyone in Team Subaru tell me what will happen if this connection is jumped? Will it disable only the VCD, or more? The diagram seems to indicate it would disable the AWD as well. Is this some kind of limp-home mode, or will all us '01 owners get lucky and have a relatively easy way to disable the VDC?

If it really does disable more than the VDC, is there another fuse that can be pulled to turn off VDC but leave on ABS, VTD, etc?

This is a sore subject with me, as I was told by the sales person that VDC could be disabled on the '01. I know, I should have validated on my own...

Thanks,

George

pattim3 · May 2001

No, the fuse will not turn off the VDC. I'm sorry the information you received was incorrect.

Patti

pattim3 · May 2001

I'll share your thoughts with Product Planning. Thanks for posting!

Patti

robnis · May 2001

Thanks for your note. Is there anything you are able to tell me about the changes in the 2002 VDC
as it would certainly affect my decision on the car purchase this summer. I am really caught between the fun,sportiness and decent price of the Acura TL and the practicality and great weather car which is the VDC. Iwant both but my wife obviously nixes the idea!

Love to see the following:

-Xenon headlights
-6 disk in dash cd player
-a fifth gear
-variable rear wiper
-memory seats

In fact, if Subaru gave a 4/50 warranty and included those additional features, I would have no problem shelling out a couple thousand more bucks. And it would take a bite out of the Volvo and Audi market too.

pattim3 · May 2001

Good Morning. I'll see what I can find out. They (sales) are usually tight lipped about the next MY until inventory of the current year gets low. I doubt that well see the lights or 5th gear, but I'll check on all of it. I'm also sure that there are no plans to change the warranty period.

Patti

rme49 · May 2001

I am a proud new owner of both a Subaru VDC Wagon and a Acura MDX. You are considering the TL not the MDX which is more expensive and much larger than the Subaru. I have owned Subarus for the past 17 years and if Subaru offered I larger vehicle I would not have purchased the MDX which is quite nice. My wife and I also insist on having either AWD of 4WD on any of our vehicles for peace of mind and safety. The VDC will cost you more but you get more. The McIntosh stereo is better than anything Acura has and I believe you can get an In-Dash 6 CD player as a dealer installed option but I won't take an oath on it. Both the MDX and the VDC are two of the best values out currently with VDC not having quite as many creature comforts as the Acura no as long a warranty. With me, there is no debate buy the VDC and forget about the TL.

jim235 · May 2001

Hi Patti. Will Subaru be adding a VDC off switch on the 02 Outback Wagon as well as the sedan? The dealer I worked with had told me he had contacted Subaru and was told that there would be no changes to the 02 Outback Wagons. If Subaru is adding the off switch will retrofits be available for 01's?

jim235 · May 2001

In late February 2001 the new ECM's were reprogrammed to correct the cold start problem - according to emails to me from Subaru technical services. Subaru customer service however has provided contradictory information on how widespread the problem is in the earlier H6 ECM's, and even what the problem is. Subaru told at least one dealer that all the ECM's were defective and that there would be a recall to correct the problem. The problem was stated to only become apparent at temperatures of 20-30 and colder.

When I contacted Subaru customer service myself about getting a replacement ECM for my VDC, which was manufactured in November 2000, they told me I did not have a problem. They stated that the problem was not associated with cold weather but that it was a 'cold starting' problem that would occur at 'any temperature' when the vehicle hadn't been started for awhile, and that if I hadn't noticed a problem I didn't have one. The said it was a defect in some, but not all, of the older ECM's and that there would be no recall of the older ECM's.

When I asked 'then what changes had been made to the control unit in February, and why were they necessary,' customer service said they would check w/technical services. When they called back they said they were told that that information could not be provided and seemed somewhat embarrassed that they were not allowed access to this information. This has left me wondering whether there is a problem which Subaru is trying to keep hidden. Perhaps Patti or someone on Team Subaru could address this?

theob · May 2001

I must have one of those defective ECM's. This morning it was in the 40's in our garage, but my wife had to crank for about 8 seconds to start our VDC. The garage then smells like gas. It seems like we usually have to crank it twice to cold-start it. We've been running Regular Unleaded for the last 1.5 months to try to mitigate this problem. Kept waiting to hear from Subaru that they were doing a full recall. Guess I'll have to get it to the dealer to get the ECM replaced.
Thanks for the info, Jim.
Theo

drew_ · May 2001

...at 6-7pm Pacific/9-10 pm Eastern. Hope to see you there!

http://www.edmunds.com/chat/subaruchat.html

Drew
Host
Vans, SUVs, and Aftermarket and Accessories message boards

mtnshopper · May 2001

Theo, I've noticed my Bean is harder to start when the temp is close to 40. It either takes longer or I have to turn the ignition twice. It was manufactured in February and I was specifically told that it had the new ECM. But I wonder. Becky

icarus3 · May 2001

I recently purchased a 2001 DC which I had Michelin tires put on before I took delivery, I wanted nothing to do with the Firestones it came with. The car is nothing short of dangerous with the VDC activated although it drives almost normally with the VDC disabled. The dealer and a "factory rep" who happened to be at the dealership when I was there contend that it is all the fault of the tires. They also say that disabling the VDC does not disable the all wheel drive. Please tell me what is true and what I can do. If need be I will put the Firestones back on but I really don't want to.

cptplt · May 2001

The Wilderness tires on a OB are passenger car tires with a totally different design and tread pattern to the Wilderness light truck tires on the Explorer. They may have a problem but the only thing they have in comon with those from the Explorers is the name which Firestone put on these passenger tires at Subes request and which they usually sell under another name at their own outlets. I forget what model Firestone tire the OBs tires really are but someone posted it here once or I may have seen it somewhere else.

rsholland · May 2001

the '02 Outback H-6 VDC sedan, that I saw at the NY Auto Show last month, had a VDC on/off switch, and was wearing Bridgestone Protenzas, not Firestones. I think you can expect all '02 Outbacks to be wearing Bridgestones.

Rick- What's the problem with the VDC? You're the first person that I'm aware who doesn't like that feature. I've driven one, and didn't notice any problems.

Bob

ateixeira · May 2001

Are the Michelines 225/60R16s?

The only thing I can imagine is a different tire size confusing the software, or very different tire pressures.

-juice

theob · May 2001

Rick,
How did you get the VDC turned off? Are you referring to the light in the dash being off or one? If so, that's a completely different story.
Curious,
Theo

paulsgt · May 2001

Hi,
I would like to hear from those that have had their H6 (VDC or LLB) for a while (5,000 miles?). What kind of gas mileage are you getting. My commute is pretty typical 18 mile freeway rush-hour commute. My current vehicle ('99 Honda Odyssey) gets around 18 to 19 mpg on the average. What am I likely to get with the H6?

Thanks for the replies...

Paul Sergeant
Twin Cities (Minnesota).

theob · May 2001

VDC 4450 miles so far
~22MPG over all
20.5-21MPG city
almost 24MPG hwy
HTH, Theo

jim235 · May 2001

Becky, they didn't start putting in the new ECM until the end of February so you may have the old one despite what you were told. When did you purchase the car and who told you that it had the new ECM and gave you the manufacturing date? Jim

brownwj · May 2001

I have a LLBean I get around 25 mpg driving in DC suburbs. Least was 23.5 Most was 26. I have not driven on pure freeway yet.

I would also like to hear from other H-6 owners to see what they get. I asked a 4 bangar what he got and he told me 30, but I think his nose grew a little when he said it.

nygreg · May 2001

I have a new OB (Base) with the four. My first tank got 23 mpg. I'll let you know what I get in the future.

-Greg

nygreg · May 2001

filled up again on my base OB. With 900 miles on the car I calculated 23.6 mpg. Hope the trend continues.

-greg

jim235 · May 2001

Even after knowing for many months about this cold starting problem on its H6's (Bean's & VDC's) Subaru still has not provided any service bulletins to its dealers regarding the problem. As a result it is almost certain that your dealer, like mine, has no idea that a problem exists with the ECM's. Subaru appears to be doing its best to cover up the problem rather than deal with it openly and honestly. If you want to have the problem fixed with the least hassle, you probably will have to call Subaru Customer Service directly, tell them that you have a cold starting problem that you believe is related to the defective ECM, and ask them to contact your dealer and authorize a replacement.

Subaru's unwillingness to provide frank and open disclosure of the H-6's cold starting problems to either its customers or dealers has left me wondering about the integrity of Subaru as a company. Is anyone at Team Subaru even permitted by Subaru to address this issue?

mtnshopper · May 2001

I purchased the car in mid April. The fleet sales manager at Heuberger told me the car was manufactured in February, but he didn't give the exact date. And on the door it only says the month and year. I asked specifically if it had the new and improved ECM and he told me it did. But I don't think that is accurate, judging by the fact that mine has trouble starting at 40F. Do you have an H6? Have you had trouble starting yours in the morning?
Becky

icarus3 · May 2001

To turn off the VDC system go into the fuse box under the hood. There is an open fuse slot with a sign telling you it is the VDC. To turn it off take a spare 10 amp fuse which will be in the fuse box and put it in the empty slot. This will shut off the system. The VDC OFF light will stay on. I have heard rumors that next year there will be a shut off switch.

Subaru Outback VDC

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