Subaru Outback VDC

smokeybaer · June 2001

Dealer has removed the computer and sent it to Subaru for flash reprogramming. Will see if this corrects Cold Start Problems, Hesitation, and Lackadaisical performance. Should know in a few days. Driving a rent-a-van makes one appreciate the handling of the VDC.
Mileage on car when it blew whatever circuitry was 9400+.

Warren

varig · June 2001

The VDC is still on my "short list" but the hesitation problem that is being reported is cause for concern. Has Subaru made any formal confirmation of this problem and more importantly found a resolution. Is this problem only with VDC models and not the Bean? Has anyone felt that their safety was compromised by this hesitation (ie. pulling into traffic and then suddenly no power). Thanks again for the continued feedback.

mikenk · June 2001

Even though I had reported the problem earlier, I am now convinced I was just not used to the transmission. I have had no problem recently. I would suggest you drive the car that you are going to buy and see if you perceive a problem; if so, make sure you accelerate with steady foot pressure and see what happens.

I doubt whether there is a wide spread problem with this. I am still really enjoying the car.

Mike

drew_ · June 2001

...at 6-7pm Pacific/9-10 pm Eastern. Hope to see you there!
http://www.edmunds.com/chat/subaruchat.html

Drew
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ffsteve · June 2001

Varig,

IMO, depending on one's sensitivity, I think hesitation can be felt on just about every car out there. I have a Toyota and Lexus that both display a small bit if I press just the right amount on the gas at just the right time when the transmission is thinking about shifting - but never in an amount I considered a risk at intersections. Only an annoyance that is noticed only when thinking about it. Coincidentally in the last week or so, the Toy is exhibiting real hesitation due to some malfunctioning sensor, causing the tranny to shift into top gear at very low speeds causing the engine to bog. THAT is hesitation!

Although I have only driven my new Bean less than 1K miles, it hasn't yet shown even the small amount that I describe on the other two cars. Power is always there, smooth delivery, quick shifts.

I'm very happy with my car.

Steve

t_zak · June 2001

I've been reading the most recent posts, and I have been experiencing a few of the above mentioned concerns.

I'm driving a LL Bean that I took delivery of in February. The second day of ownership I experienced a cold start problem. Being from California, the weather got warmer the following week and haven't experienced that problem since.
I have noticed the acceleration problem numerous times as I go up an on ramp to access the freeway. As I step down to get up speed to merge with the flow of traffic the car just seems to cut out. On a recent trip in the mountains I was traveling at 50 and went to pass a slower vehicle and as I stepped down the car seemed to literally die. I was about to coast off to the side when it seemed to regain power.I've also been keeping my gas mileage since I've owned the vehicle and in a combination of 50%freeway and 50% city driving I'm averaging 19.67 mpg. I expected to have gotten much better gas mileage than this. I traded in my explorer, with the best seats I've ever had in a vehicle, for the better gas mileage I thought I'd get in the LL Bean.BTW..The explorer got 21 mpg with a combination of 18mpg.

Yesterday I took my vehicle to Clawson Honda in Fresno and told them exactly what I've just mentioned. Their response was that this is just normal and everything checks out. If they wanted to check out the gas mileage then I would have to leave the car for their mechanic to do even though I've kept accurate records since the day I bought the car. I asked for a loaner vehicle as I thought would be furnished in the warranty and they refused.I live 60 miles from where I purchased the vehicle.

Patti... I would truly appreciate a response regarding these matters.

The excitement of owning this vehicle is quickly fading.

mammothsun · June 2001

I too sold the explorer and got a Bean about a month ago. There is a slight hesitation bog in downshifting. It's like the trans is just not sensitive to pedal pressure. I have started to manually shift from 2nd to 3rd when on mountain curves and on ramps. There is very little torque at low revs it seems. If there was select shift it would help.
Re gas mileage mine has been in the 25 to 26.5 range. It is almost all highway (living in Mammoth )
Never experienced the start problem but of course it has been warm since I got the car. It was March 01 production.
Wondering if you have experienced the whine problem (See my posts on the Legacy/Outback section)

ateixeira · June 2001

Keep in mind the torque peaks at a pretty high 4400 rpm. If you're loafing along at 2500rpm and come up to a steep hill or need to pass, you'll definitely need a lower gear. Just don't be afraid to really mash that throttle, even to anticipate that hill.

That's nothing, though. My Miata reaches peak torque at a sky high 5500 rpm. Below 3000 rpm it's like the engine is off. It's geared much shorter with its 5 speed manual but I still need 4th and sometimes even 3rd at highway speeds.

-juice

drew_ · June 2001

t_zak · June 2001

Hi Mammothsun,

I'm happy to say that I haven't experienced a Subaru whine, only our Napa wine. If I do, you can be sure that I'll mention it.

As for the torque, I must admit I had been conservative in my driving for two reasons. The first being the break in period and second I was trying to get better gas mileage. Mammoth, I think it's great that you are getting such wonderful mileage, but don't tell me you only check it after you've driven down the mountain

I read in other posts that our formulated gas or oxygenated gas that we have in California doesn't seem to result in very good gas mileage. I wonder if the ECM can make the appropriate adjustments. I'm also thinking about going to regular to see if the mileage improves. Any thoughts or suggestions would be greatly appreciated.

Thanks,

T_Zak

smokeybaer · June 2001

Well my VDC is back on the road. Computer was removed Wed afternoon, sent by next day air to Subaru, they flashed the memory and next dayed it back to dealer. It was reinstalled and car was ready about 48 hours after they started. I didn't expect it before Mon at the earliest. I had a 2001 Chevy Venture Van to drive in the interm. Like a battleship in a bathtub. Sure was glad to get back in the Outback. Now for the bad news. Hesitation is back although its only about half as bad as before. Performance off a bit too. Guess that computer must default to a slightly richer mixture when it blows. My hesitation problem doesn't sound like the others being reported. Mine only occurs when starting from a stop with a fully warmed engine. With light pressure the car really jumps but then bogs. Which is where I get the hesitation. I have had no problems when stepping hard on the gas. Someone mentioned having trouble getting the Automatic to downshift. It seems the downshift is caused by how fast the throttle is pressed not by how far down you push it. A quick punch causes one where a slow press doesn't. Will watch for further experiences with this computer problem. Hope they can figure out a better mixture controller.

Warren

subearu · June 2001

I think Subaru calls that 'power mode'. It senses you've mashed the pedal and it downshifts automatically. Since your ECU is 'green', it's learning your driving habits and may be very conservative.

Try this experiment: put the tranny in '1' and try the light pressure acceleration method you described above. Does it hesitate at all? I think others have pointed out that the Sube tranny probably shifts to '2' or even '3' during the light pressure acceleration. So maybe a more aggressive tranny shift map is the answer.

I believe even our H4 Outback shifts quick into '2' during regular driving. I usually don't notice this much since I tend to drive 'manually' (ie. shifting the gears on my own).

-Brian

hypov · June 2001

Yes Warren, give the tranny @ '1' position experiment a trial as Brian had suggested (make observations speed/rpm).
When you do a light acceleration ('D'rive position), observe where the rpm/speed is at when it jumps and when the hesitation occurs. Then compare with hard (or slightly "heavier foot") acceleration, note (if you can) at what rpm/speed it shifts to 2nd and see if there is any commonality.
Knowing more about the hestitation aids to the resolution.
i.e. "car accelerate to x mph @ x rpm then hesitates then regains power @ y rpm" would probably be more informative versus "I lightly accelerate and the car hesitates".

smokeybaer · June 2001

I too though it was just a quick upshift to 2nd, which is about what it feels like, but its not. Tranny is still in first and car has moved maybe 5 to 10 feet. Only happens on a normal easy start out. Haven't looked at RPM to see what it shows when this happens. This engine rev's so fast in low its hard to tell. With throttle mashed the trip from 4000 to redline goes so fast you hardly have time to shift before the governor kicks in to limit rpms. I'm sure its just to lean a mixture as it doesn't happen with a cold motor and enrichment of mixture (choke or however they do it with fuel injection).
Warren

smokeybaer · June 2001

Just a quick thought but maybe its not the bog that is the problem but the quick surge. No matter how smoothly I try to start out, as soon as I touch the gas I get a big surge of power which then drops off very quickly. Acceleration from that point is very smooth but uninspiring. I do think the 212HP rating is a bit exaggerated. Feels more like about 180 to me as compared to other cars I've driven. Owned a 92 960 Volvo sedan for years with a 204HP engine which was probably about the same size and weight and performance was quite a bit better at all speeds. Same basic engine used in the non-turbo S80. Price and quality prevented me from looking at another as they arn't the cars they used to be. Now I don't have to worry about chains either.

subearu · June 2001

wasn't AWD. Remember, you're putting that 212HP to 4 wheels instead of 2, so there is some driveline drag that you may notice. Gearing too - the Outback tranny probably is geared taller than that Volvo.

-Brian

hypov · June 2001

Warren,
another experiment.
Put the car in Neutral, parking brakes on.
Very lightly and slowly accelerate and 'decelerate' (is there such a word?). Watch the rpm.
There's this guy at another board some time back (his handle is 'Rich in NAPA'), could not get in touch with him to learn if he found the cause or if it is fix. Anyway, he'd notice when he played with the throttle there is a void at a point in the rpm band where it neither rose nor drop.
Just wondering if your hesitation fit in there.

smokeybaer · June 2001

Tried your experiment. RPM's do jump from 700 to 1500 with just a light touch. From then on its pretty steady as pressure is increased. Its really not much of an annoyance any more. Since the EMU was reflashed the jump/bog has been reduced to almost not noticeable. Yes there is the difference between RWD and AWD to consider. I don't think there is that much of a power robbing involved though. I am used to 4WD in my Jeep and with 4WD engaged and/or Hubs locked vs 2wd I don't notice much of a change. It might explain a 5 to 10 HP difference. Also there is about a 5MPG freeway gas mileage difference vs the Volvo. Regular gas is $.20 a gallon less though. Wonder if now I should go back to premium fuel since the reflashing. I assume this also should have corrected the cold start problems? I must say that I saw no performance difference between Regular and Premium and the gas mileage was the same as well. On the Volvo I got and additional 2MPG when going from plus to premium. Am getting about 25MPG on the freeway with the VDC. Car has about 9500 miles on it and I hope it will still improve a bit. Its a great car at any rate and am not sorry I bought it. Nothing else really compares.

Warren

subearu · June 2001

25 mpg on 87 unleaded - that's not bad for the H6, with which 92 octane is recommended. The ECU does adjust for the lower octane fuel, probably reducing HP by 5% maybe. Try the mid-grade blend 89 or 90 and see if you notice a increase in MPG and performance, although you may have to use 92 if you notice any 'ping'-ing.

A few others with the H6 here and in the Subaru Crew have mentioned that after the ECU was fixed that they didn't have the startup problems anymore. So, you should be good to go now!

-Brian

mammothsun · June 2001

t zak....Yeh mileage from Mammoth to Bishop is fantastic..just a 4500 ft drop in 40 miles. Problem is it's uphill coming home. Seems to average out going to and from Reno, LA whatever Hasen't been lower than 25 since new. Re Whine, try closing all windows, air, stereo, the dog, get up to 75 or so, lightly accelerate. There is where it comes in. Let off and it's gone. Nothing below about 73 or so. Called Subaru and they gave me a case number. Maybe a rep will check it out. Just want to be on record if something happens after warranty,
Try driving the car more briskly... maybe the mileage will get better
Oh and only use 91 or 92 octane

highndry · June 2001

I reported earlier on a hesitation problem very similiar to Smokeybaer. I spoke to Subaru and was schedualed to bring the car in last Fri. On the previous Wed. I filled up the car with 91 oct. (I had been using 89) and to my surprise the hesitation problem improved considerably. I cancelled the appointment but had them leave the file open in case the problem returns. I'm going to use 89 gasoline next time and see what happens. I get 18MPG here in town (Phoenix) and my AC is on ALL the time. We've taken two trips up to the mountains and have averaged 25MPG and again the AC is on 95% of the time. I wish it were better but it's not bad!!

This hesitation problem is real. The transmission is not shifting into 2nd. There is a diffinate flat spot at around 1500RPM. I believe this is a new system for Subaru and I think we're seeing some of the bugs. I really love this car....It just has this very annoying glitch!!

subaruguy · June 2001

Hello,

I currently own a '92 loyale. I am looking at buying a 2002 VDC wagon when they come out in a couple of months. I am very concerned about the hesitation problem, as well as the cold start problems with the 2001's. Should I look at an Audi, or other wagons instead? What guaranteees do I have for Subaru fixing these problems if they come up with my car? I have not seen one post here indicating that they completely fixed the problem. What do you all think?

Thanks

subaruguy · June 2001

Also,

I really like those new xenon bulbs you see in cars nowadays. Are they easy to put in a VDC without warranty problems? Any recommended vendors?

Thanks

smokeybaer · June 2001

I wouldn't be concerned about the hesitation. Its a very minor annoyance. You know it shouldn't act like that but its not a safety issue and only happens when first starting to move. Cold start is something else if you have temps around freezing and below in winter. This needs to be fixed and MAYBE has been. They claim problem was only with Feb and older builds. Car is fantastic otherwise as it drives more like a rear wheel drive car than a front wheel drive one, if thats what you prefer. I do.

hypov · June 2001

I suppose it is possible, at a cost ~$800 - $1000 for conversion and a place to mount the balast.
Down side, you lose your high beam, lens pattern may not be suitable (glaring oncoming traffic).
Upside, bright.
I have an auxilary mounted (Hella DE Xenon), and trying to get pics for Ken.

drew_ · June 2001

You won't lose your high beams since the Outback has seperate high and low beam bulbs. It's only with the combined high/low beam bulbs, such as the H4s, that you will loose high beams as well. The lens pattern will not be optimal for HIDs since they're optimised for the halogens. What you'll basically get is a beam which is 2-3 times brighter and whiter than the halogens, but not the much desired even and wide/far reaching beam that true Xenons provide. FWIW, the Legacy is available with factory Xenons in Japan. You could probably import them over and install them if you really want proper HIDs enough:-)

Drew
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hypov · June 2001

for the correction. I forgot MY '00> have separate High/low beams.

David C.

kullenberg · June 2001

Drew:
If you installed the HID from Japan; since they drive on the left, would not the focus and beam pattern be wrong?

t_zak · June 2001

I would have to believe that Subaru knows they have the hesitation problem with our vehicles. However, I'm not sure Subaru has a solution to this problem. A recall would achieve nothing until they have a solution to the problem. Another thought is that it would not be cost effective to fix,thus admit to the problem. I will go out on a limb and say that Subaru didn't develop a transmission to math the torque of the six.They put the same transmission in the six that they have in the four cylinder cars. The car needs a five speed and it's looking for that missing gear when it hesitates.

T_Zak

varig · June 2001

on a final decision about the VDC. Did anyone notice hesitation on a test drive or did it develop after purchase. It may be hard to says since there are so many things that you are looking at on a test drive. Also, a few postings back, mention was made that using a higher grade of gas seemed to improve the hestiation issue. I believe that the VDC calls for premium gas.
Thanks for your feedback.

drew_ · June 2001

For most HID lights, the only difference in beam pattern is that the driver's side lamp is aimed a bit lower so as to not blind oncoming drivers. However, it's quite subtle and frankly I'm not sure if it makes a difference since many people have the tendency to look directly into the HID lights (because of the different colour apparently). Here's a picture. Please note that this is during warmup though, so the colour is really blue.

Drew
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mikenk · June 2001

Yesterday,on my way to visit my son, I decided to find the illusive hesitation that I had perceived earlier during my first week of ownership but lost in my second week. I could not consciously reproduce the hesitation even under very light acceleration; the car did shift into second and third very quickly when I was very light footed. I gave up on my hunt and then it apparently happened when I wasn't paying attention during light acceleration on a right turn into traffic. I am convinced that, in my case, it is simply a matter of light acceleration, a quick shift of the car into third, followed by me giving the car more gas, not realizing I was in third gear already. The bottom line for me is there seems to be a few cases of real hesitation but for most of us, it is just getting used to it.

I drove a lot of beans and VDC's during my test driving and I didn't notice any hesitation on any, but I didn't do any light footed acceleration either.

Overall, I have been more impressed with this car than any I have ever owned against my base requirments: comfortable, smooth, very very quiet, compliant suspension, great cornering. This is so much better a car than my Volvo 850 turbowagon, and I thought I loved that car. And of course, for an audiophile, the cd performance of the McIntosh is in a league of it's own.

I must admit the plastic wood dash bugs me.

Some rambling thoughts
Mike

smokeybaer · June 2001

My hesitation SEEMS to have gone away. I went back to premium fuel and that plus the reflashed ECU appears to have done the trick. I can also now notice a little better performance with premium which I was unable to before. Maybe the mileage will improve although 25 mpg freeway wasn't to shabby. Now if only I could get rid of the driveline clunk.

Warren

ateixeira · June 2001

Wow, from a Loyale to a VDC? Hit the jackpot or something? :-)

If reliability concerns make you hesitant, I would not look to Audi instead of Subaru. Their long-term reliability scores are worse, not better. Volvo's are also not as good (but don't take my word for it, ask around right here in the Town Hall).

You could probably buy the HIDs from Pam at iSR Subaru, since she imports just about anything from Japan. It's autocaresubaru.com.

-juice

PS These electrical issues seem minor compared to the early troubles other manufacturers have encountered. Blazers' suspensions could collapse, and Fords wheels could fall off.

bkkrantz · June 2001

I have an 01 LL Bean. I too had to have the ECM recoded. The check engine light came on so I took it in. They said it was an air/fuel problem. Also had to have the Rack and Pinion unit replaced as it was binding. Has anyone else had any steering problems? BTW I concur with the apparent engine - tranny mismatch or shift mapping issue. I get the initial surge then it seems to bog down. I have not driven it but a few miles since getting it back with a recoded ECM - wife gets to drive the new car ;-( so I'm not sure if the re flash improved the problem. I'm also going to try the manual shift experiment suggested by Brian in an earlier post. I do love the car. Love Subaru's (I now own 3)

mikenk · June 2001

I'm curious....

Why is there so much activity on the Subaru forums versus the others? I must admit I am participating in this forum, but I never did before. Do Subaru owners somehow need to defend their decision not to buy a Volvo or Audi, or are we just a little quirky, or do we just like defending the underdog? I don't have an answer, but I am enjoying my glass of wine. I wonder, do we like different wines from Audi owners?

hmm,
Mike

11thcav · June 2001

Has anyone any knowledge concerning the introduction of the 2002 Outback? Any idea when and what changes might be made?

originalbitman · June 2001

Actually I prefer a growl to a whine.

bit

pattim3 · June 2001

Merlot?

In my opinion, there is more activity here because our community is strong with caring people. There are no slams nor is there an overall feel of a complaint session. Just good information sharing.

When I was asked to start posting here on behalf of SOA, it was an extra responsibility. After a year, it is now a place that I like to visit and share information. It turned out to be a nice place to "visit" with friends who drive similar cars.

Hope to see you post more.

Patti

dan2001 · June 2001

I have "01 LLBean made in 12/00 and so far so good. But the discussion regarding the ECM and the cold start has me thinking, since I have the per-corrected version. Should I go in and ask for a new flash version or replacement? Haven't had the cold start problem, yet, and no hesitation, yet. Just wondering if the dealer will work with me?

hypov · June 2001

Patti,
I've wondering whether SoA's taking the step to mingle with their customer was a decision made on its own, or was it as a result of an overwhelming customer request/suggestion. I know I made such a suggestion when testing the "my.subaru.com" beta site.
Anyway, it is a very very good move. And I believe SoA is first (pioneer) in this new frontier.
Cheers

ateixeira · June 2001

Dan: IMHO, if it ain't broke, don't fix it. I'd leave it be if it's running fine. The powertrain warranty is a longish 5 years, so no reason to rush anything.

Why are these boards active? A few good reasons were already mentioned, and I'll toss in a few more. For one, we welcome all models of Subaru from all years, so noone is left out. Even visitors and enthusiasts that do not own a Subie (yet?) are welcome.

Also, as owners many of us are techies, so we have access to computers all day long. We're affluent and educated, hence the tone of civility. Even our gracious Edmunds hosts have chimed in about how our boards are among the best.

Speaking of wine, we and the SCOA toured the Oakencroft Vineyard in Virginia last year, and the consensus was with the Cabernet Sauvignon. It offered a smooth texture, light bouquet, an an Episcopalian behavior.

Whatever that means! ;-)

-juice

PS The Oakencroft Vineyard owner owns a 2000 Outback. Anyone want to guess what color?

hypov · June 2001

Wine?

ateixeira · June 2001

Wine...stone! Yes! Like my dad's.

-juice

oclvframe · June 2001

I own a 01 Bean and have not noticed a hesitation that has been mentioned on this forum. The manufacture date of the vehicle is 2/21/2001 per the id tag in the door jamb.

My question is about other's driving habits...How many of y'all allow the motors to rev to the red line?

I personally like the sound of the H6 at high rpms. I don't red-line the car in every gear every time I accelerate, but every once and a while, it is nice to let that motor just rev away. I know the Outback is not a sports car but its nice to take advantage of the full rpm range of the motor.

-r

ateixeira · June 2001

Go for it, rev it up once in a while. Some say it cleans out carbon deposits so it's actually good for your engine! Necessary, even.

Plus, you'll never feel peak power and torque if you stay below 4000 rpm all the time.

-juice

rsholland · June 2001

Absolutelyand proud of it!

Hmmm... I think there may be a possible bumper sticker lurking here.

Bob

kullenberg · June 2001

The VDC is on my short list for my next vehicle. I was amazed by the front seat room, when I sat in one. It has more room (leg room) than my current ML430. A couple of things I'd like to see, if Patti is listening, and can pass on;
1. either a turbo or supercharger. I live at about 5000', not losing power at altitude would be nice.
2. A manual shifter, such as Tiptronic as on the Audi's. This would take the Audi Allroad off my list.
My 2c worth.

Cheers
Pat

smokeybaer · June 2001

I agree with Pat. The option of either a 5 speed manual or a 5 speed automatic with tiptronic type shifter would be ideal. The wierd shift gate on the current VDC makes manual shifting less that ideal. Also would like to see a bit more power. Don't think its really producing 212 HP. Maybe a 3.5 liter 250 HP six cyl would do. Bringing the torque range down into the normal driving range would help too. I don't normally run mine at over 4000 rpm. At 75 - 80 mph I don't get much over 3000 except when accellerating. A turbo would be nice for altitude but adds a lot of extra complexity and maintainence for the average Joe.

Warren

rsholland · June 2001

I like the way you think!

Bob

Subaru Outback VDC

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