Real-World Trade-In Values

qbrozen · September 2010

well, first off, I'm just reading the numbers.
Second, I'm as surprised at you that people buy stuff like this in this market, but they are. The crowd I observed a couple of months ago during my day at a Jag/Rover dealership proved hat to me.
Lastly, this is the hybrid version, which makes the value jump about $8k according to Galves.

bismarck · September 2010

Manheim auction figures range from $42,500 to $52,500 with mileage between 4,900 to over 37K...Figure low $40K range for 20K miles.

roadburner · September 2010

If you've been paying any attention at all to roadburner's frequent posts on the subject, you know that's not true. Unless it's been abused, a BMW - particularly a 3-series - is barely broken in at 40K.

Hey, I'm no expert- I've only owned nine Bimmers since 1983. The folks who have never owned or driven a BMW are the ones you need to listen to...

deltheking · September 2010

One person's experience doesn't change the fact.. There are posters who post that their Neons or old Malibu's ran 150 k miles with no problems.. So is that the fact ??All car sales people here would definitely agree that BMW's are expensive to repair and have poor reliability with the 3 series relatively better . Also, not everyone has the time and inclination to get the car repaired frequently.. Some like it-- that`s why they buy BMW's.. Some dont-- they buy other brands. But for a young guy who got the Escape as a gift -- suggesting him to buy a BMW would be a financial mess. :confuse:

Anyone who buys a BMW should be able to afford to maintain it. It's fine to say you can go to an independent repair shop . But unless it`s a big city there are no independent BMW repair shops. It`s like finding a needle in a haystack . Just because 1 person finds that ,doesn't mean everyone can. And nowadays cars are so computerized that the regular mechanics cant keep up with them . Forget BMW or MB,even mainstreams like Honda,Toyota are so computerized now and any problems need thousands of dollars in diagnostic equipment that the indy guy cant afford. Not to mention the access to the car maker hotline that the dealers can have.. :shades:

deltheking · September 2010

You dont need to own a certain brand to get to know a few things. If that was the case,no one would buy a car till it was atleast 5 yrs on the market.. I have never owned a previous Malibu and maybe you too. But a guy in the Chevy forums says that those Malibus were the best midsize sedans with excellent quality,fit and finish and reliability and all of them ran for 300l+ miles with only oil changes and that we folks have no idea b'cos we have never owned a Malibu... Well I guess, you would agree with that ?? Ya , right !!

Everyone cant own everything - that`s why there are reviewers,statistics and other data. Just like the GM lovers say -- GM's were the best cars the last 30 years and all [non-permissible content removed] and German craps are crap just b'cos we never owned a GM !!! And yes, the world agreees with them !! Ya Right !!

Also different strokes for different folks. Just b'cos you like road feel -- doesn`t mean Lexus sucks. I like reliable cars and road feel is secondary ,, so if BMW was more reliable than a Lexus, I would not have any problem buying it. But the reality is , they are not. The 5 and 7 series are one of the very unreliable, problem prone sedans.. And please dont say ,it`s b'cos of cutting edge technology-- Lexus has as much tech as any German car.. Heck even Hyundai has quite a bit of tech in genesis and it has been reliable-- totally different issue that it has no snob appeal or desirability like BMW,MB,Lexus.. :surprise:

roadburner · September 2010

Also, not everyone has the time and inclination to get the car repaired[sic] frequently.. Some like it-- that`s why they buy BMW's[sic]..

And you know this because -let me guess- you read it somewhere? You have absolutely no first hand experience owning, driving, or repairing BMWs- but the experiences of long time BMW owners should be discounted as anomalies? That makes perfect sense. And I'm eager to hear how you know a BMW 3 series is past its prime by 40K...

But unless it`s a big city there are no independent BMW repair shops.

Really? How many times have you looked for an indie BMW shop? Or did you read that somewhere as well?

roadburner · September 2010

You dont[sic] need to own a certain brand to get to know a few things.

So, how do you "know" about BMWs?

Just b'cos[sic] you like road feel -- doesn`t mean Lexus sucks.

When did I say that Lexus sucks?

But the reality is ,[sic] they are not. The 5 and 7 series are one[sic] of the very unreliable, problem prone[sic] sedans..

And your source for this blanket statement is? I see where BMW can't build those pesky unreliable 5ers fast enough to meet demand...

deltheking · September 2010

Any car is past it`s prime by 40k or 50 k miles .. Note that I say "its" and that is to itself,,not relative to the competition. And you can discount the opinions of those long time GM , Malibu owners.. You dont have 1st hand experience of owning those Dodge Neons and discount the experience of those long standing owners. That makes perfect sense to me..

Again.,it`s like a needle in a haystack . yes, the needle is there , but to search it in a haystack !! And in smaller cities , indy guys are severely handicapped by the price of diagnostic equipment and computerized codes.. Newer cars,,especially the last 4 yrs or 5 yrs have so much tech irrespective of the brand -- that indy guys find it really tough to diagnose and repair.. May be 10 yrs back or so they could have repaired,,,

deltheking · September 2010

So do you know about those Malibus or Neons ??
You in the sense -- BMW lovers-- not you in specific. Data-- well check out CR .. And if you say you dont trust CR , then why should all folks trust your BMW info as gospel. :sick:

deltheking · September 2010

Also , demand has got to do nothing with reliability or performance etc.. It's got to do with desireability. There is a thread -- Is there room in the luxury market for Hyundai -- The Genesis is a very good sedan with lots of tech and is selling very well -- but is it a luxury brand?? Is it desireable or something folks aspire to ?? NO.. Whereas Lexus/BM/MB are some thing that folks want to aspire up to!!

roadburner · September 2010

Any car is past it`s[sic] prime by 40k or 50 k miles ..

That may be the cars you've owned.

You dont[sic] have 1st hand experience of owning those Dodge Neons and discount the experience of those long standing owners. That makes perfect sense to me..

I've mentioned that I don't like how Neons drive- and I have driven them. Please show me where I discussed the reliability of a Neon.

Again.,it`s like a needle in a haystack . yes, the needle is there , but to search it in a haystack !! And in smaller cities , indy guys are severely handicapped by the price of diagnostic equipment and computerized codes..

Again, how do you know this?

stickguy · September 2010

if nothing else, even the BMW devotees will admit that which one you get definitely impacts the reliability and maintenance costs. Especially older ones.

You don't want an 860 if you are on a budget!

And they are know for being a bit more preventive maintenance sensitive. But, even a honda will not last as long if you ignore the basics.

so it might come down to deciding if the dynamic aspects of driving a BMW every day is worth some preventive care at some point (say, a new radiator at 80K).

deltheking · September 2010

Any piece of electronic loses its efficacy over time. Nobody agrees that a 2k mileage car is the same as 40k mileage car and that the wear and tear is the same..
No need to drive a Neon .. Almost universally agreed that it is a very poor unreliable piece of junk ..
There are so many articles on the net and everyone as to how the indy guys are unable to keep up with the computerization of cars and the prohibitive cost of the diagnostic equipment..

roadburner · September 2010

So do you know about those Malibus or Neons ??

What are you talking about?

You in the sense -- BMW lovers-- not you in specific.

Huh?

Data-- well check out CR .

Yawn...

And if you say you dont[sic] trust CR , then why should all folks trust your BMW info as gospel.[sic]

People DO trust me because I've driven, owned, and maintained BMWs for 27 years. I've owned nine and currently have three in the garage. In short, I haven't reached my conclusions by briefly thumbing through one magazine.

roadburner · September 2010

Any piece of electronic[sic] loses its efficacy over time. Nobody agrees that a 2k mileage car is the same as 40k mileage car and that the wear and tear is the same.

So, every car with 40K on the odometer is "past its prime" due to aging electronics.
Got it.

There are so many articles on the net and everyone[sic] as to how the indy guys are unable to keep up with the computerization of cars and the prohibitive cost of the diagnostic equipment..

So -once again- you are just repeating what you read- and that makes you an expert on independent repair shops...

Look, I think the folks in this thread(and others) have a pretty good idea of how your knowledge of BMWs compares to my own experiences with the marque. Feel free to continue to pass on your second, third, and fourth hand "facts".

deltheking · September 2010

That I totally agree. If you prefer the driving dynamics an the road feel and you dont mind the extra maintenance and repair costs and can afford it--then great.. But to say that BMW's are very reliable and very cheap to maintain or repair-- That I dont agree with..
But for folks who want the driving machine and dont mind the extra expense-- then it`s a very good car-- sporty handling et al !!! :shades: :P

deltheking · September 2010

So, I take your word for it and all those sites, Edmunds , Cr and all other auto sites are stupid idiots and you are a genius !!! Got it !!
Any car the more miles it puts -- it has wear and tear and its life span is reduced by that many miles. A 40k mile car has its life span reduced by 40k miles compared to a 0k mile car..And if a 40k mile car is better than a 0k mile car -- then it should be much more expensive.. Probably these cars keep turning into gold the more miles you put on them... Simple logic !!
And also, your experience doesn't mean anything in the real world. Facts are facts.. :shades:

roadburner · September 2010

So, I take your word for it and all those sites, Edmunds , Cr and all other auto sites are stupid idiots and you are a genius !!!

So, Edmunds calls BMWs unreliable? But wait, there are "other sites" as well. Intriguing.

Got it !!

I guess imitation IS the sincerest form of flattery.

Any car the more miles it puts[sic] -- it has wear and tear and its life span is reduced by that many miles. A 40k mile car has its life span reduced by 40k miles compared to a 0k mile car..And if a 40k mile car is better than a 0k mile car -- then it should be much more expensive.. Probably these cars keep turning into gold the more miles you put on them... Simple logic !!

Not so simple for you apparently. My only question was: How did you reach the conclusion that a BMW with 40K miles is "past its prime"? Arithmetic is not logic.

And also, your experience doesn't mean anything in the real world. Facts are facts.

In other words, real-world experiences don't mean anything in the "real world".
That makes perfect sense. In Bizarro World perhaps. In any event, it's been fun, but debating an issue with someone who has absolutely no personal knowledge of the subject matter quickly becomes boring. I'm done.

deltheking · September 2010

You dont trust CR. Show me some sites where they list the reliability data for BMW and say Bimmers are very reliable and they are cheap to maintain ??

A higher mileage BMW is at 40 k miles is past it`s prime.. So you are telling me a 40k car is better than one with 0 mileage?? Arithmetic is always logic. 2+2 is always 4 ,not 5..

Real world experiences !!! One man's poison is another man`s nectar. I recollect you saying you have a horrible experience with your Mazda3.. If you are not that person-- then some other I guess.Others here in these forums have said that it has been very good for them.. Both real world scenarios.. making perfect sense now ??? :confuse:

Also a real world scenario -- One of my best friends has an 07 BMW 7 series and he is tired of it being in the dealership frequently.. No--doesnt leave him stranded nor does the engine or tranny crashes-- rather it`s the electronic gremlins-- CEL, other warning lights and Idrive related electronic issues,problems with his audio system . The great part of it is -- when he leaves his car for repairs at the dealership,he gets great loaner cars of all brands and all styles.. And this is a real world scenario. :sick:

jimbres · September 2010

I've been subscribing to CR since the mid-70s. As I write this, I'm looking at the frequency of repair data in CR's 2010 car issue. The 3-series BMW gets an overall rating of "better than average". That's the same rating that CR gives the Toyota Avalon & it's a higher rating than the Camry V-6 gets.

So the only logical conclusion that I can draw from this is that a 3-series BMW is a more reliable car than a V-6 Camry. Right?

CR gives the 5-series BMW an overall rating of "average", but that's mainly because of problems with its audio system. All of the important systems - engine, transmission, brakes, drive system, etc. - in late-model BMW 5s are either "better than average" or "much better than average", according to CR. And let's face it: a non-working car stereo isn't going to leave you stranded.

So you won't find anything in CR's data that suggests that BMWs are significantly more troublesome than the popular Japanese brands.

jimbres · September 2010

A higher mileage BMW is at 40 k miles is past it`s[sic] prime.. So you are telling me a 40k car is better than one with 0 mileage?? Arithmetic is always logic. 2+2 is always 4 ,not 5..

Actually, a car doesn't reach its "prime" (whatever that means) until it's broken in. So a car with 0 miles on the clock isn't there yet.

Once broken in, a well-cared-for car can stay "prime" well beyond 100K miles. As CR itself has pointed out, cars today are much more reliable than they were 20 or 30 years ago. A car that CR would rate "worse than average" today would have earned a "much better than average" rating in 1990. That's because the average is so much better now than it was then.

It's just not true that a car reaches its "prime" at, say, 14,373.8 miles & then starts going downhill from there. It's not just simple arithmetic.

28firefighter · September 2010

I am going to go ahead and step in here now as someone who went from a 2009 subaru (that the lease just expired on) to a 2004 BMW with 80k miles. I can tell you with 100% certainty, that your reliability is going to be wholly dependent upon how well the car was maintained by the previous owner(s) and how well you stay on top of routine maintenance. Thanks to roadburner and the various resources on the internet, I felt comfortable enough going forward with this purchase.

I'm glad I did, too. I can also tell you that this car, with 80k miles drives, far and beyond, better than any other car I have ever owned, including those that I owned from brand new. So to say that a BMW is past its prime at 40k miles, frankly, makes no sense to me. In this day and age, to say any car is past its prime at 40k miles doesn't make any sense but that is really besides the point.

There are lemons in every bunch - and in that case, yes, that is not a vehicle you would want to own and I can see why it might turn someone off to the brand. But just like BMW has a lemon in the bunch, so does every car manufacturer. Judging the whole based on the experience of one seems like a poor choice, but hey, what do I know.

That said, to the OP - I would keep your Escape for a while. It is a gift, enjoy it for the gift that it is until it has taken the bulk of its depreciation (my guess is probably 3-4 years) and is leveling off, and then flip it. At least thats what I would do.

*Gets off soapbox*

deltheking · September 2010

The newer BMW's -- 2006+ -are better in reliability . CR does state that these newer BMW's are improving reliability wise. As I always said, the 3 series always was more reliable than other BMW's and also it is the best selling series. The 3 series "above average" rating you mention is for the 06+series. Prior models show quite a few problems.

The 5 series has problems with tranny minor,electrical systems,engine cooling --rectified for 06+ models,power hardware -- and all 03 and prior models had engine problems. And a new redesign is coming .. The 7 series has always been unreliable ..But if you want a 7 series-- that should not at all be an issue !! But to say BMW repairs and maintenance are cheap is just not on :P

And as for personal experience-- folks here sound as if I have never driven a BMW.. Quite a few of my friends have the 7 and 5 series -- and I drive them often-- It`s just that they are not for me though-- I like quiet,plushy quiet rides with no road feel up my spine.. And ,I am not a very big fan of 3 series-- as it`s kind of small for me.. But guess what,next month I am travelling and am renting mostly BMW 3 series - 328xi and 335 series.. So let`s check out how good the road feel,handling and sporty dynamics and the potholes of NYC feel in the 3 series ! :P

But as I say always-- I dont hate BMW or discredit them just for the sake of it.. I always believe in competition --win win for the buyer. Otherwise they will stagnate like the Det 3. No competition--they made crappy cars.. And Lexus was successful only because of German/American unreliability at that time along with phenomenal customer service.. But guess what-- it really provided a kick up the backside for MB/BM and they needed to improve to stay in the race.. A race that as a customer-- I always like..Dont want Lexus to get complacent or sloppy !!! :shades:

qbrozen · September 2010

Are those all hybrids? I'm guessing no. I mean, how many could there really be out there at auction?

BTW, if you have access to Manheim, why don't you stick around this board? Folks could sure use the help.

lemmer · September 2010

I am looking at my CR buyer's guide and their "reliable cars" list includes BMW models from the 3-series, the 5-series, the M-series and the Z-series. The list only covers 1998 and newer models and multiple '98 model BMWs are one there, even an M3.

mjm87 · September 2010

Thanks for all your input. I am going to keep my Escape for a long time. I have already added a black grille in place of the silver grille and have done some minor mods, so I am going to keep it and add a bull bar and some new wheels, instead of buying a completely different car.

roadburner · September 2010

I am looking at my CR buyer's guide and their "reliable cars" list includes BMW models from the 3-series, the 5-series, the M-series and the Z-series. The list only covers 1998 and newer models and multiple '98 model BMWs are on there, even an M3.

There must be some mistake! Maybe you have the April Fool's edition...

deltheking · September 2010

Prior to the 06 models ,none of the BMW models were recommended exception being the Z3 and Z4 . I am also looking at the CR guide and it specifically gives info to avoid older models. If as you say , they recommend 3,5,M series from 1998 and above-- can you please post that link ?? :shades:

deltheking · September 2010

Blasphemy !! CR recommending older BMW models. And yes,,must be the April fools edition or "Lemmer" specific edition !! :P

roadburner · September 2010

I pulled up the spreadsheet on my mile 2004 X3. It has needed one warranty repair(a passenger seat SRS sensor), one set of brakes(at 60K), and two sets of tires(at 46K and 93K) I also had the "creaking door" TSB performed outside of warranty($90).
My local BMW dealer(Swope BMW, Louisville KY) has performed all maintenance except for the tires. Here are some of the costs I've incurred:
ATF and Transfer case fluid change(I don't believe in "lifetime" fills): $207
Oil Service(AKA 15K service)+coolant flush: $128
Inspection I(30K service)+brake fluid flush+wiper blades: $302
Inspection II(60K service)+brake fluid flush+repair curbed LF wheel: $424
At 101K past its prime it still looks and performs like new:

jimbres · September 2010

As I said a few posts back, this stuff really doesn't matter that much any more. As CR itself has pointed out, just about any car made today would have been rated "much better than average" in 1990. (You probably know this if you've been reading CR as long as I have. I started reading it in the 1960s & I've been a subscriber since the 70s.)

Yes, there was a time when it made sense to avoid low-rated cars, but that time is long passed. Apart from the occasional lemon, which can roll off any assembly line in the world, just about any new car that you might buy today can easily make 125K miles without any heroic efforts or major expenditures on your part.

My '78 VW Rabbit stopped running as a result of electrical problems & left me stranded 300 miles from home. Worse, the car was less than a year old & had only 12K miles on the clock when this happened. I finally got rid of the car after it threw a rod at the 49K mark. It was less than 4 years old at that point. (But it was a gas to drive when it was running. I still miss it - sort of.)

But here's a newsflash: it ain't 1980 & it hasn't been for 30 years. Back then, my experience wasn't all that unusual. If it happened today, I'd probably hire a lawyer to deal with it. I don't think that anyone under the age of 40 can appreciate how much better cars are today than they were in the 70s & early 80s.

So while I still read CR's repair frequency data - after all, I'm a paid subscriber - I don't obsess over it anymore. While some cars might be marginally less troublesome than others, there really aren't any genuinely bad cars out there. Read the magazine, & then go out & buy whatever you want. It'll work out for you.

deltheking · September 2010

So,are you game enough to buy a Chrysler Sebring or Dodge Nitro or maybe the upcoming Fiat ??

:P

jimbres · September 2010

Nope, but not because I'm afraid of expensive repairs. Chrysler just doesn't make anything that I'm remotely interested in driving. (I've rented the Sebring, & it's about as much fun as an Avalon.)

deltheking · September 2010

Dont want to hijack this thread with all these reliability data any further. Let the RWTIV topic be the main issue.. :P

bismarck · September 2010

A total of 7 Hybrid Escalade sales since early August -- guess there's more of those out there than I would have thought.

bismarck · September 2010

The BMW cooling problems have been ongoing, moreso evident in the V8s (think 5 & 7 series, X5)... As far as the E39 5 series (96-2003), I'm not aware of any engine problems. The 2006+ 5 series have been bulletproof, with the exception of minor electronics.

What it comes down to, in my experience anyway, is regular maintenance. The real issue is that these cars are being bought by people that drive them into the ground without changing fluids, filters, etc., before passing onto someone else that expects Honda like reliability from a 10 year old luxury car. I think this is where a lot of the horror stories come from.

qbrozen · September 2010

Huh. Me, too. Wonder why you can't get them anymore if people were evidently buying them.

isellhondas · September 2010

That's correct. Some people buy BMW's and then can't afford to maintain them properly. You can not skimp on maintenence on a European car or you (or the next owner) will pay dearly. They are unforgiving in this regard.

woodyww · September 2010

I've come to believe there's some kind of "Mass Delusion" out there, about the supposed "unreliability", or "high maintenence expense", of bmw's. It's almost always expressed by people who've never owned a bmw, or take the time to research the models, eras, engines, etc.

It's simple really: if you don't "get" bmw's, don't care, don't buy one. (And if you do buy one, you might get hooked). And FWIW, my experience with my current bmw is akin to roadburner's........

lemmer · September 2010

Well, I can't link to their subscriber services on their website and the buyer's guide is sitting here at my desk, so that is no help to you either.

This isn't from their list of recommended cars. That would only apply to new models. This is from their list of reliable used cars. They have tons of BMWs on the list, from numerous years and models. This applies to years 1998-2007.

If I go the following section of the guide that shows detailed ratings and look at the "used car verdict" for cars by year and model from 2002-2007, BMW has 36 listings, 30 of which have a verdict of average or better.

ateixeira · September 2010

I think a few things are at play...

Service is usually just once a year, so when you do go in, if it's not covered in the first 4 years, the bill may induce sticker shock.

Don't they use synthetic oil at $7/quart, too? Not cheap.

You need a tool to reset the oil service light, don't you? At least for some models. Do-it-yourself types might have a few obstacles.

Newer Bimmers don't have dipsticks for oil, another slap in the face to DIY types.

I always say "you gotta pay to play". The idea of getting an older, say, 5 series for $20 grand, and then expecting operating costs to be the same as a new $20 grand Civic is a myth to say the least.

With a used luxury car, you have to budget for service and repairs, I think that's fair and normal, and a buyer should plan for it.

BTW, it's not different than buying a used CTS-V for the same money. Or for that matter, something expensive from Asia. Go ask a GT-R owner what a clutch costs.

bismarck · September 2010

FWIW, just to add my 2 cents... I've owned 6 BMWs, and have piled on a good number of miles on all of them traveling pretty heavily for work, etc. In my mind they are no less reliable than any other car on the road. They're a very well engineered car.

Sure they have their own quirks, and repairs can get very expensive, but this is the case with any modern luxury car these days. And I am confident in knowing that the way ours were taken care of and maintained, they would never leave us stranded. My current 06 530xi wagon has over 70K miles on it, and drives as solid as it did when it was new.

Maintenance records are paramount in buying any used car, especially a high end one. There is a reason why a '01 C Class costs the same if not more than a S class of the same vintage.

bismarck · September 2010

Funny, I was typing pretty much the same thing at the same time.

explorerx4 · September 2010

I like reading the long term test reviews. Edmunds and C&D come to mind.
Just about every vehicle accelerates faster, stops shorter and gets better fuel mileage than it did when it was new.
Usually there is some physical deterioration like squeaks, rattles or wear marks.

deltheking · September 2010

Maybe you are reading from a different book,,but that is so not true. Anyone who has access to CR can confirm that.. And especially from 02-07 ?? Do you want me to cut and paste the models to avoid for 2000-07?? :confuse:

explorerx4 · September 2010

A lot high end vehicles are driven by OEM corporate execs for a while.
Happened to be in the Detroit area the weekend after 'Black Tuesday' (I think that is what it was called).
There were at least 100 black Escalades parked at the GM Tech Center.

fezo · September 2010

Some of this will depend on if you are looking at the 2010 Annual Buying Guide or the April 2010 car issue. Their recommendations lists are different.

28firefighter · September 2010

Did you replace a battery yet in that thing? Curious to know what the life of the BMW batteries tends to be. I was installing my OEM satellite radio today, and in disconnecting the battery, noticed it still had a BMW battery in it and I have no record of one being changed.

deltheking · September 2010

You will see all black Escalades and black Mercedes' outside the star hotels in NY being driven by personal chauffeurs for their bosses rendezvous with those hot gals both in the hotel and in the car !!

Another reason why I will probably never own a Cadillac or MB atleast in NYC !! :P

roadburner · September 2010

Did you replace a battery yet in that thing? Curious to know what the life of the BMW batteries tends to be. I was installing my OEM satellite radio today, and in disconnecting the battery, noticed it still had a BMW battery in it and I have no record of one being changed.

I bought the X3 in 2005; it was a CPO car with only 16K on it. I assume it's the original battery. The battery in my 1995 3er made it to 10 years and 100K miles. It still tested fine, but I replaced it as a precaution.

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