Any Questions for a Car Dealer?

masspector · April 2003

thanks for your help....I have not driven any of these. I was looking for opinions like, 99 RL's have bad tranny problems, stay away, and the like.

The car it will be replacing is a 96 sable so I assume any of these would be a step up. I wanted to see what you guys thought as far as the quality with the number of miles these have versus the new camry.

thanks for any input

joatmon · April 2003

I'm in South Carolina and I noticed 10 unspoken for MDXs sitting on the ground on Saturday. I stopped and the salesman almost pulled me out of my car to talk.

Now, 2 months ago, when my wife was in the market for a new car, they were too busy to talk about if, when, and how much on an MDX.

The times they are a changin'

Jack

ateixeira · April 2003

There's more competition - XC90, RX330, even the Pilot. Might as well mention high-end Muranos and Endeavors, plus the FX35.

-juice

richard103 · April 2003

Thanks for your feedback regarding the 2000 Catera. 3 different GM dealers in my area each have had one on their lot for several weeks. All are similarly equipped (roof, chromes, etc.) and have mileage ranging from 9-28k. Asking prices range from $15.5-16.4k, so it looks like $14k may be in the ballpark . . .

cinlin · April 2003

I am having a dilemma over offering a price for a 2003 4-Runner LMTD DEMO. I read cars aren't considered Demos unless they have been registered? What if it has 1500 miles on it. The sales mngr uses it personally. It is the color that i wanted, and since as soon as I drive it off the lot it going to lose approx $3500. in value I thought I could low ball my price. I want it to be fair. It is the dealer's internet sales. I have been quoted $34,685. for Brand new. Would $30K be fair if I was putting down 2/3 rd's in cash on it?

audia8q · April 2003

I'm not a big fan of buying demo's since the dealer rarely gets any incentive from the manufacturer to discount a demo anymore than a brand new car.... Assuming this is a new, unregistered demo and not a used vehicle a $4,685 discount for 1500 miles seems outlandish to me...but you can offer anything you want, you never know....

rivertown · April 2003

Sheesh!

I think you oughta offer at least $35,185. After all, the SM has put in at least 25 hours breaking in that 4-Runner; and to offer him less than $20/hour for his time is downright insulting.

Don't you know depreciation doesn't apply when a dealership puts miles on a car? Because it's been professionally broken-in, that particular 4-Runner is actually gonna appreciate.

bigorange30 · April 2003

What makes the dealer exempt from taking the depreciation hit (or at least a major portion of it) on a car he drives around? What does the buyer care that it was only driven 1500 miles instead of 10,000 miles? If its not significantly discounted then the buyer should just buy a new one since he will have to pay the same price. The he will have one that no one else has developed their fanny print or smoked their cigarettes in. I realize that you can smell cigarettes so maybe that was a bad example. The point is that you don't know what that dealer did in it. Who knows what he might have done in the BACK seat?

audia8q · April 2003

Since the other posters decided to be sarcastic and unhelpful I will add some more to this......Many moons ago we would get an incentive to make the car an unregistered demo...Then we could discount the car MORE than a brand new car and the consumer would be happy. Now, with the rare exception we dont get anything...so the dealers cost structure is the same as a brand new vehicle. So generally there is no savings or benefit to the consumer....Now that said in some cases you can benefit and save some money on a demo. An example of this would be a vehicle that is selling at MSRP or more. If the dealer is discounting the demo vehicle down to a few hundred over invoice on a car that can only be had at MSRP then your getting a bit of a deal....Also, alot of people buy cars they can't afford in the first place and saving a few $$$$ on a demo can be a benefit.....

My personal thinking is to buy a used car. Remember, everybody drives a used car!!!

masspector · April 2003

can you give some insight into my post concerning the new camry, and used rl, tl,es? thanks

sonjaab · April 2003

Most of the car dealers around me all the
salespeople have a demo "plan". Anybody
know how it works ? Also most of them drive
used cars off the lot not new ones.....
The only people that get the new fancy ones
are the owner and the general mgr.

chorton · April 2003

Everyone that buys a new car leaves with an expensive used one anyway. so what if it has 10 miles or 1500? Everyone wants a discount and demo's are a good way to advertise products and a good excuse for giving away all the $$ on a new and untitled car. most dealers are doing that now anyway doe to this site and others like it. what business is it of the customers what "invoice" is. do you go to mcdonalds and ask them what a big mac costs to make? The cars have stickers in them. WHY?????

jeffmust2 · April 2003

IMO, the answer is...

Because sales reps make a game out of negotiations on these very expensive commodities (compared to very cheap commodities like a fast food hamburger) and buyers have to be armed with as much knowledge as possible in order to compete on an even playing field.

That's Why.

grandtotal · April 2003

True, but if you buy new you know who drove it and how. You cannot always say that about a demo. Having said that my last car was a demo and I did not experience any problems because of that, quite the reverse, it was the most trouble-free car I have ever owned.

rivertown · April 2003

Buy a new car at a new car price - that makes sense.

Buy a used car at a used car price - that makes sense.

Buy a used car at a new car price - that makes no sense.

The dealer can't afford to sell at a used car price after the SM has driven the car 1500 miles? As a customer, that doesn't really move me. The dealer wants to reward his SM with some new car miles? Let the dealer pay for 'em.
Or . . . he can charge Cinlin a pro-break-in fee.

landru2 · April 2003

should ever buy a demo. They'll never get it cheap enough. They shouldn't even think about them. They should either buy a brand new one or get a used one. Demos are sold to people who feel they get value in the discount given. They should never even be considered by an Edmunds-type fanatic.

Sort of like the way Edmunds-type fanatics should never consider a Cavalier or a Taurus. Some things should just be left for the hundreds of thousands of buyers that think differently.

rivertown · April 2003

I think you're right on that, and I'm gonna refrain from considering demos.

I had a Cavalier once; I didn't like it much.

I had a mother-in-law who had a Taurus once; I didn't like her much either. I liked the Taurus better than I liked her; but I didn't like the Taurus much, either.

All this to say I think you're right; no demos, Cavaliers, or Tauri for me.

masspector · April 2003

If audi said "Now, with the rare exception we dont get anything...so the dealers cost structure is the same as a brand new vehicle. So generally there is no savings or benefit to the consumer"

And you said "Demos are sold to people who feel they get value in the discount given."

Where is this discount coming from?

imidazol97 · April 2003

"Everyone that buys a new car leaves with an expensive used one anyway. so what if it has 10 miles or 1500? Everyone wants a discount and demos are a good way to advertise products and a good excuse for giving away all the $$ on a new and untitled car. most dealers are doing that now anyway doe to this site and others like it. what business is it of the customers what "invoice" is. do you go to mcdonalds and ask them what a big mac costs to make? The cars have stickers in them. WHY????? "

Cars or a brand are sold only by certain dealers. They can hold up the price, even raise it above suggested, as a group -- essentially an illegal practice. Hamburgers is hamburgers: I can get one at BurgerKing, McD, Rally, local diner, and they compete on price and quality or lose customers.

Similar problem with gasoline in our area. A major supplier decides to raise price and everyone else raises their price within minutes; one supplier is holding up the price and in control. Customer loses; no competition.

But I can understand why a dealer/salesman would want the customer ignorant of price the way they were in the 50s and 60s.

zueslewis · April 2003

Price/cost hasn't been a secret for 30 years.

"They can hold up the price, even raise it above suggested, as a group -- essentially an illegal practice."

How is that illegal? If I own a dealership and I'm getting 3 Vipers all year, I'm NOT giving them away at $100 over invoice. I'll take bids on them and sell them for as much as I can. That's smart business. The Neon, however, which is not a high-demand car, will sell for $2500 below invoice because of rebates - in your way of thinking, THAT should be illegal, too, no?

mirth · April 2003

zeus, imidazol97 wasn't saying that selling the car for over MSRP is illegal. Instead, he seems to be implying that dealers of the same make, "as a group", collude with each other to artificially bump up the price. I believe that statement is patently ridiculous unless you're unfortunate enough to live in an area where all the dealerships are owned by the same guy.

rivertown · April 2003

zueslewis · April 2003

owned all the dealerships in a particular town, he'd be cutting his throat by doing that pricing game - there aren't many places in America where you can't drive 10-30 minutes to another dealer of the same car.

chorton · April 2003

however, if I was buying a house, what the owner of the house originally paid for it has nothing to do with what I pay for it. And the realtors make 6% set rate. if this is a 200k house hats $12,000. they didn't even own the house to begin with. SO if a dealer pays 28450 for a car and the list price is 31295 why should the public have access to what THE DEALER buys the car from the manufacturer for??? granted there is holdback. 2-4 % of the base msrp in this case (assuming the price above is a base model) is $1,251. that is kind of a bonus for the dealer providing a service to the manufacturer by selling the product they make. ok now the customer comes in and wants to take advantage of the service the dealer provides him/her by having the ability to have the vehicle they want then being there to service it, do warranty work, and be there down the road when they trade again, why shouldn't the customer pay the dealer for the convenience of not having to travel to Michigan to buy the car. never mind the cost of doing/running a business and keeping employees happy.

grandtotal · April 2003

Did you ever stop to think how Edmunds et al obtains details of invoice pricing? If you don't want the general public to have access to this information then what you collectively need to do is stop the flow of information.

zueslewis · April 2003

have said they surely don't mind when they get an educated customer with numbers in their heads, as long as they aren't totally out in left field. This speeds up the process and lets everyone part with a handshake instead of harsh words.

Besides, only about 20% of the buying public knows what invoice is and the others need so much help just to get unburied from their trade and make up for bad credit, invoice isn't even a factor - in fact, it's a hindrance to the dealer, 'cause they're trying to get enough money financed to break even.

chorton · April 2003

Its the ones that absorb PART of the pricing info on these sites that are a pain and there are A LOT of them. Might not be that way everywhere but I'm in the "deep south" where people aren't really known for intelligence. so you get the good old "i know y'all hide thousands of profit in the invoice, i ain't payin' invoice" line. if you are going to provide invoice make it detailed a little better for regions and distributors fees and not have all that in "fine print" so people have ALL the info.

mdsequoia · April 2003

Silver 2001 SE Maxima with Sunroof, leather, Bose & Alloy wheels. Brentwoodvolvo you out there?

lmp180psu · April 2003

You might want to post your question in the "Real World Trade-In Values" thread. Terry, a very knowledgeable guy, hangs out there, along with others who can give you an idea of auction values.

virgiesmom · April 2003

In state of Virginia: when there is a trade-in, is the sales tax computed before or after trade-in allowance?

agt_cooper · April 2003

There is no tax benefit on trade-ins in Virginia. Tax is paid on the price paid for the car, regardless of the trade-in.

grandtotal · April 2003

So, does that mean that there is no tax on the sale of a used car? Because if there is doesn't that mean the state is collecting tax twice on the same car?

sonjaab · April 2003

YUP, they collect it again ! What kills me about
VA, Mass, Nevada, Calif., and other states they
charge you for reg/plates according to the cars
value. Can you imagine how much plates cost for
a 50k car a year? I think for those states its a
flat fee after 10 yrs or so...............geo

BTW: Good old NY charges by weight only for plates.
They also deduct the price of your trade from the
price on a new or used car purchase then charge
you sales tax on that amount....Then deduct any
rebates, credits, GM card $$ etc......
One thing about VA. tho is you have to buy a "CITY"
sticker too every year for you car on top of plates/
reg....OUCH!........

mackabee · April 2003

"deep south" "people not really known for their intelligence"???? Wow! I can't believe you posted that!
: (
Mackabee

tboner · April 2003

some folks are from the "you fill in the blank" where folks aren't known for common sense or courtesy, LOL.

TB
Who knows just because someone talks slowly, it doesn't mean they are dumb. In fact they may be smarter as they carefully choose their words.

zueslewis · April 2003

and with three degrees, I take offense.

jeffmust2 · April 2003

eom

tboner · April 2003

that is all

zueslewis · April 2003

I get a real laugh out of folks who think Southerners aren't smart - most people from down South have more common sense than all the other regions combined.

Additionally, I continually see a direct offset between the amount of education and a lack of common sense.

People can analyze data all day long, do calculus and predict aeronatuical trajectories, but they can't complete simple tasks like buying a car or tying their shoes.

tboner · April 2003

here in St. Louis (we are just barely north of the "sweet tea" line) and he had a bumper sticker that summed it up quite well.

"You can't fix stupid"

Just a generic thought, not posted about anyone in particular. Be offended if you must, but only you can decide and allow yourself to be offended, I can never offend someone who is not willing to be offended.

TB

zueslewis · April 2003

"Be offended if you must, but only you can decide and allow yourself to be offended, I can never offend someone who is not willing to be offended."

That's great. How much wood would a woodchuck chuck.....

tboner · April 2003

it doesn't fit on a bumper sticker.

Check out my Inconsiderate Buyer today. I was looking for one of the bumper stickers I mentioned above.

TB
New owner of 94 Geo Prism

delguy · April 2003

OK, I know as well as anyone that anyone can make numbers sit up and dance much less conceal the truth. Anyway, someone please explain the disconnect between the invoice a dealer shows you and edmund's. Also, please type slowly so this dumb Texan can understand. Joke.

landru2 · April 2003

You make it sound like every dealer invoice is different than Edmunds number. I'm sure Edmunds gets some of them right. How about you tell us what car it was on and what the difference was?

edit:
Nevermind, I just saw your post about the 4Runner. It sounds from that post like you can reconcile the dealer's invoice number. The Toyota sellers can give you more info, but Edmunds inaccuracy on Toyota invoice numbers has been a longstanding issue.

suavechavo · April 2003

Wondering if anyone can tell me what the price is per $1000 if your APR is 3.9 & 4.9%. I know that at 0% the price per $1,000 financed is $16.67. Does anyone how to calculate this amount? Any help sure would be appreciated.
Thanks

Marty

jeffmust2 · April 2003

Based on 60-month loan -

0.0% - $16.67 per $1000 of financed amount
3.9% - $18.37 per $1000
4.9% - $18.83 per $1000

masspector · April 2003

The toyota guys can correct me if I am wrong, but in the southeast the Toyota dealer invoice will have a line for SET fee $565, TDA around $400 and I think something like financial reserves or holdback listed. Each region has different fees so I am not sure exactly what they are in Texas.You can check the Toyota threads, there is a read only thread about this where one of the toyota salesmen gave a better explanation of all the extras.

Landru is right, this has been an ongoing issue with edmunds invoice and toyota invoice. Also if you price the car on KBB you will see some of the these fees listed in the options section. See my post in the questions about toyotas thread that I left for lonesome. You may want to try carsdirect.com first to get a baseline price in your area.

Hope this helps some.

delguy · April 2003

OK, I'm an actuary and hence a math geek.

the formula for a present value of an annuity paying $1 every period is:

a = (1-v^n)/i
where v = 1/(1+i), and i is APR/12 in your case
so w/ n = 60 months and i = .049/12
a = 53.12
For $1000 loan, monthly payment = 1000/53.12 = 18.83 as shown by jeffmust2.
note: this assumes the first payment is in a month.

Hope that makes sense.

delguy · April 2003

thanks for the tips. I'll check out KellyBB.

chorton · April 2003

I'm not calling any region stupid. I mean here we get a a few more people that are just behind the times. reguardless of the topic.

zeus- you are right about the too much education not enough common sense.

delguy- I'm glad you saw what I mean

EVERYONE- don't forget I am a southerner too. I live around these folks every day. I didn't mean to offend anyone, however, If you can't handle a little harmless humor in all this jargon you need to reconsider your attitude. if I can't talk about the people WHERE I LIVE. who can i talk about? I don't know enough about the people in Seattle or L.A..

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