There are a lot of posts lately about this happening. My take is that it's a scam to boost the price after the deal.
I bet the dealer will get you financed if you hold firm. The loan papers may look different, i.e. the price of the car may be less and the apr higher. Don't sign anything that shows your trade value less than $4200; LOL, you could see the same thing happen - only with your tade worth less money on paper. If he/she doesn't, I'm with Zues; walk with your money.
Had the exact same thing happen to me about 12 years ago in Bethesda MD - dealer called after I'd had their car for three weeks - said the bank wanted another $1000 down. I told them no - got my trade and my down payment back - you shoulda seen all the salespeople at the dealership trying to convince me that it was such a great deal - "No, it was a great deal a thousand dollars ago."
I echo the response from ray,zues & river. As zues so aptly put it they jammed themselves up. I'd tell them if they can't do the original deal you signed ,you will take $5200 and bow out gracefully. They can always carry the paper themselves. :-) They screwed up. You are under no obligation to cover their losing bet.
the length of time is a flag that it may be a scam IMHO. Loans can be approved pretty fast, although I admit I dont know the auto loan market. But Im quite sure that the lenders the dealers use have underwriting requirements that the dealers must follow (age, mileage, as well as the buyers credit). So the dealership either made a stupid mistake, or something more dishonest. I would stand your ground. THe dealer is probably in hot water with the lender for violating their underwriting rules. If you cant work it out in a friendly way, have your lawyer send them a letter..wont cost u much
Had almost the same thing happen to me. I traded in a leased Odyssey after negotiating an Accord for $18K out the door. Went to sign the papers and it came out to something like $17.3K, told me there was no sales tax on my trade. I knew there should have been since it was a leased trade. Being the honest person I am, I even asked them "Are you SURE there's no sales tax" and they said yes. So I walked out with the Accord for $17.3K. They called me a week later and wanted the sales tax which took me to about $18.5K. I told them NO, we negotiated $18K. They wouldn't budge and threatened to repo. the car. From reading the signed paper work, they would have won had it gone to an arbitrator. I stuck to my guns and they relented, so I sent them a check for $300 plus I signed a paper reassigning them the $400 lease deposit for my trade in. I thought we were done until Honda sent ME the $400. deposit, seems they sent the wrong paper work to Honda. I hung on to the $400 for awhile but they never caught their mistake. If they didn't jerk me around trying to get $18.5K I would have called them about it.
Thanks for the responses about the tax on the rebate. Makes perfect sense, since the rebate is from the mfr., not the dealer. And I can even see why the mfr. uses rebates as opposed to equivalent price reductions, even though it makes the IRS richer at the customer's expense. Shame, though...
And let me just say, too, that my experience with my salesperson and dealer has been wonderful. I got no pressure whatsoever, a below-invoice price with no haggling, excellent, pro-active assistance when a problem arose with delivery of the car (the problem was not the dealer's fault), and on top of that, the dealer's service dept. has such a good reputation locally that people bring their cars to him for service who didn't buy the car at the dealership.
You hear about the bad experiences; I thought I ought to mention that my experience didn't include any of the negatives we're led to anticipate.
Just to update those of you who so kindly responded to my incentive questions earlier in the week.
I received a call yesterday morning notifying me that my special order Pacifica had arrived the night before and was ready for delivery.
I questioned about the incentive and 3.9% APR I had seen mentioned on the Edmunds Pacifica board. My sales rep wasn't aware of either, but after about 30 minutes he called me back and said they had found both.
I took delivery yesterday morning and, thanks to all of the good folks posting on Edmunds and the information which Edmunds provides, feel that I got the best deal I could possibly get.
My dealership is amazed that I had correct information that even they didn't have, so they went to "Pacifica school" on my deal.
They also matched an ebay price that I gave them for splash guards and a bumper scuff pad. I will, of course, pay sales tax but no inflated shipping charges.
I vaguely remember them jokingly telling my husband that I was "as tight as the bark on a tree". Well, the apple doesn't fall far from the tree. My late father is probably smiling and thinking "that's my girl."
Thanks for all of your help and, by the way, the car, uh, sports tourer wagon, is an absolute dream.
Plz post your comments on your new Pacifica after you have a few thousand miles....I think chrysler has a potential winner and I would like to hear some owner feedback....
I live in NYC and I lease in NJ . I am coming to the end of a lease and want to know now that leasing has come to an end for many car dealers in NYC how does this work. I know that GM has started with a smart buy that you buy the car make payments and then when the payments are up in 36 months you make a final lump payment . I am asking because I really want to lease a Honda and am unsure if I go to NJ if they will lease to me or do I always have to buy now? Any information is helpful . Thanks
I'll be happy to post my comments, but if you'll visit the boards under the Chrysler Pacifica search you find plenty of people who have been driving since late April or May with much success. I've been reading and posting there throughout my wait.
There are hundreds of valuable posts for you to sift through. Hope this helps!
It depends on the bank/Leasing company and Manufacturer.
GMAC and Ford Credit are out..as is Chase (At the end of the month and they might be strong on some Hondas... act quickly if so) Toyota/Lexus, Hann Financial.. they're still players.
Due to vicarious liability, lots of leases are going to change. I think you'll see more balloon payment programs, anything that keeps the bank's name off the title.
NY, CT, RI and some other states have a goofy law called vicarious liability....this makes the leasing company financially responsible for anyone in their lease cars....so if a guy leases a car from ford credit and gets drunk and kills somebody Ford credit is on the hook. Only a lawyer could dream this up.....chase manhattan just lost a $41 million dollar lawsuit in just this fashion. This law was designed 100 years ago to protect the driver of a horse and buggy from getting sued when driving a wealthy land owners carriage. Of course lawyers have been milking it ever since. Destroying leasing for everyone else in the process.
because of this everyone has stopped doing leases and swtichted to doing balloon notes...which is structured just like a lease, but the car is registered to the customer and not the lease company.....putting the liability on the customer and not the lease company.
NY and CT held emergency legistative hearings and overwhelming passed a law eliminating this problem...but the new laws don't go into the works until the end of the year.
Our store is in North Jersey.. maybe 15 miles from NY City so we do a fair number of NY deals.
Right now, if a NY Resident leases a car through Chase, the ac fee is $1,000!
But that all ends July 2nd.. CT and NY are done as far as Chase is concerned.
So if you live in NY, even if you buy the car in Jersey, I can't lease you a car through chase, I CAN do it through Lexus Financial or Hann Financial though.
If they can buy your trade $3-4k below market and know they can resell it within a few weeks with minimal investment and effort - and either break even or make a few bucks on the new one - you're good to go.
I helped a relative do pretty much the same thing a month ago with a trade-in of an Acura MDX Touring towards a new Acura TL. There was equity in the MDX and they gave away the TL to get it. Simple.
Good luck with your deal - you might want to post here or in the "Real World Trade-In Values" board to get an idea what your trade should be worth.
Last, is there some reason you don't want to maximize your equity (assuming you have some and you're not upside down on a loan or lease) on your current vehicle by selling it yourself?
With the $3-4k manufacturer rebates, 0% financing, many leased vehicles coming back with overblown residuals, etc - the used market is depressed right now and you might be shocked by the low valuation placed on your trade by dealers.
I am wondering if any of the dealers have calculated if the new "baloon notes" are better or worse deals for consumers than leases. I think Ford used to do deals like this, although I forget the name of the program.
I think there are several advantages to the consumer - assuming that the overall cost during the equivilent term is the same.These include:
You OWN the car..with a potentially better interest rate (?), as well as equity.
Possibly better insurance rates (?) since you have title versus someone else..less subrogation issues.
You own the car..so at the end of the note you can keep it instead of being forced to turn it back in. If your financial circumstances change..refinancing the baloon payment will likely be easier than going out and getting a new lease, or a new car loan for a much larger amount. You just have to buy a long lasting car (such as a Honda lol).
I heard on the radio that one manufacturer (i dont know which), was offering a 1.5% interest rate on the baloon payment refinance up front. Who can be that!
We offer balloon programs and leases. Amongst ourselves, we call the balloon program the "Never, Never Plan." The most common one we do is over 60 months with an 84 month amortization. This usually gives payments slightly below a lease payment of much shorter term. But the balloon customer has equity. Ya right.
Like Landru said. There's always the second law of thermodynamics: You can't get something for nothing. Sometimes, though, the 84-month program CAN make sense... if you can buy an extended warranty, and get a car that holds its value (Odyssey?), it's better than a 4-yr loan on a '99... Wouldn't try it on a Taurus, though... wouldn't do baloon either, just straight-up loan. -Mathias
The leasing companies want all the profit without any risk, as most businesses do.
Of course when the heat gets too hot, they take their ball and go home (ie, will not do leases in those states).
We had a similar situation in my state over mortgage lenders. When the state legislature enacted a law to help prevent predatory lending, the mortgage portfolio raters lowered our mortgage ratings. This implied that big investors would not buy mortgage portfolios from our state because of the increased risk and it eventually got to the point that some mortgage companies were talking about not doing home loans in our state.
So of course the next year the legislature guts the law they passed the last year to help consumers, to please these powerful financial entities. So we are all back to normal with mortgages, even the part where these slimeball lenders can still practice predatory lending.
Hey all, just bought this last month and so far, the gas mileage really sucks. Only have 700 miles so far though. About how many miles will it take for the mileage to get closer to the EPA estimates? And is a break in period of 1000 miles enough? Thanks all.
What level of risk would you put up with if you were held responsible for the actions of people you lent money to? If you had the money to lease one person a car, would you lease it to them in NY knowing you would be held responsible for their actions?
You lend a car to somebody. They are going to pay you $300 per month to use it. They run over somebody else. The injured person then sues you. Who in their right mind would think that right?
I lend my gun to some psychopath who blows your beloved away. "Who in their right mind would think that right?" Not as simple an issue as it might seem, is what I'm saying.
I know it's tough, trying to be at odds with every post but try to remember we are talking about car leasing here. Nobody is talking about leasing guns.
My dad drilled that into me when he was teaching me to drive. He said "Its really just a big bullet that you ride in." He was trying to teach me to be very careful. People get killed all the time by cars. How can you talk about it like its so different than a gun landru? The laws of lending property would apply to both the same way. Don't say that killing people is not the intention of a car because people say that about guns too. "Oh I use it for sport hunting."
He told me that, when behind the wheel, "remember that everyone else on the road is nuts and they are out to KILL you." No wonder I hug the shoulder so much. lol
He said "Always be looking for how a shoulder, ditch or median that you can go in to avoid an idiot on the road." He always hates riding in the middle lane of a highway of more than 2 lanes/direction. Those situations don't have many outs.
If the lease law is changed in NY because the original law really applies to horse and buggies from a 100 years ago . If the law changes in NY and it lets the lease companies get out of being sued will the car companies go back to leasing again? my lease is up in 2005 and I would love to lease again from either Honda or Toyota (GM HAS LOST ME FOREVER) it really works for us and I would hate to have to purchase a car after having problems with any car ( we are currently on bad GM #2) just a thought .
Not sure. You mean me individually or me as a multimillion or billion dollar a year company that is making record profits? This law has been on the books for 100 years. These companies did plenty of leases over the years in New York. But now the rules change against them, they no longer want to play. Its kind of like playing a sport that you write all the rules to benefit your team. There is no way to lose.
As usual you have all the answers, so answer this question for us all to enjoy.
explain why vicarious liability is good for automobile leasing and how this helps the majority consumers? Other than much higher leasing costs for consumers, can you list some benefits??
Comments
It's wild that your trade isn't around.
Personally, with quite a few years in the business, I'd reapproach them and ask for your car and cash back and start over somewhere else.
This mileage issue is something they deal with every day and isn't a surprise to them - they were playing fast and loose and got jammed up.
Start fresh at a new place, and yes, if they've sold your car, they owe you $4200 plus your downpayment.
I bet the dealer will get you financed if you hold firm. The loan papers may look different, i.e. the price of the car may be less and the apr higher. Don't sign anything that shows your trade value less than $4200; LOL, you could see the same thing happen - only with your tade worth less money on paper.
If he/she doesn't, I'm with Zues; walk with your money.
You know where the door is, and it's not your mistake. Don't put up with it.
They screwed up. You are under no obligation to cover their losing bet.
What is it about the Washington DC area? A lot off the negative posts are from this area.
And let me just say, too, that my experience with my salesperson and dealer has been wonderful. I got no pressure whatsoever, a below-invoice price with no haggling, excellent, pro-active assistance when a problem arose with delivery of the car (the problem was not the dealer's fault), and on top of that, the dealer's service dept. has such a good reputation locally that people bring their cars to him for service who didn't buy the car at the dealership.
You hear about the bad experiences; I thought I ought to mention that my experience didn't include any of the negatives we're led to anticipate.
I received a call yesterday morning notifying me that my special order Pacifica had arrived the night before and was ready for delivery.
I questioned about the incentive and 3.9% APR I had seen mentioned on the Edmunds Pacifica board. My sales rep wasn't aware of either, but after about 30 minutes he called me back and said they had found both.
I took delivery yesterday morning and, thanks to all of the good folks posting on Edmunds and the information which Edmunds provides, feel that I got the best deal I could possibly get.
My dealership is amazed that I had correct information that even they didn't have, so they went to "Pacifica school" on my deal.
They also matched an ebay price that I gave them for splash guards and a bumper scuff pad. I will, of course, pay sales tax but no inflated shipping charges.
I vaguely remember them jokingly telling my husband that I was "as tight as the bark on a tree". Well, the apple doesn't fall far from the tree. My late father is probably smiling and thinking "that's my girl."
Thanks for all of your help and, by the way, the car, uh, sports tourer wagon, is an absolute dream.
All the best.
Rich
There are hundreds of valuable posts for you to sift through. Hope this helps!
GMAC and Ford Credit are out..as is Chase (At the end of the month and they might be strong on some Hondas... act quickly if so) Toyota/Lexus, Hann Financial.. they're still players.
because of this everyone has stopped doing leases and swtichted to doing balloon notes...which is structured just like a lease, but the car is registered to the customer and not the lease company.....putting the liability on the customer and not the lease company.
NY and CT held emergency legistative hearings and overwhelming passed a law eliminating this problem...but the new laws don't go into the works until the end of the year.
Typical greedy lawyer stuff!
Sorry, I couldn't resist another sweeping generalization. Hopefully no offense is being taken right now 8^)
Cheers,
TB
Craig,
Our store is in North Jersey.. maybe 15 miles from NY City so we do a fair number of NY deals.
Right now, if a NY Resident leases a car through Chase, the ac fee is $1,000!
But that all ends July 2nd.. CT and NY are done as far as Chase is concerned.
So if you live in NY, even if you buy the car in Jersey, I can't lease you a car through chase, I CAN do it through Lexus Financial or Hann Financial though.
TB
Bailey?
If they can buy your trade $3-4k below market and know they can resell it within a few weeks with minimal investment and effort - and either break even or make a few bucks on the new one - you're good to go.
I helped a relative do pretty much the same thing a month ago with a trade-in of an Acura MDX Touring towards a new Acura TL. There was equity in the MDX and they gave away the TL to get it. Simple.
Good luck with your deal - you might want to post here or in the "Real World Trade-In Values" board to get an idea what your trade should be worth.
Last, is there some reason you don't want to maximize your equity (assuming you have some and you're not upside down on a loan or lease) on your current vehicle by selling it yourself?
With the $3-4k manufacturer rebates, 0% financing, many leased vehicles coming back with overblown residuals, etc - the used market is depressed right now and you might be shocked by the low valuation placed on your trade by dealers.
I think there are several advantages to the consumer - assuming that the overall cost during the equivilent term is the same.These include:
You OWN the car..with a potentially better interest rate (?), as well as equity.
Possibly better insurance rates (?) since you have title versus someone else..less subrogation issues.
You own the car..so at the end of the note you can keep it instead of being forced to turn it back in. If your financial circumstances change..refinancing the baloon payment will likely be easier than going out and getting a new lease, or a new car loan for a much larger amount. You just have to buy a long lasting car (such as a Honda lol).
I heard on the radio that one manufacturer (i dont know which), was offering a 1.5% interest rate on the baloon payment refinance up front. Who can be that!
Any thoughts?
There's always the second law of thermodynamics: You can't get something for nothing.
Sometimes, though, the 84-month program CAN make sense... if you can buy an extended warranty, and get a car that holds its value (Odyssey?), it's better than a 4-yr loan on a '99...
Wouldn't try it on a Taurus, though... wouldn't do baloon either, just straight-up loan.
-Mathias
The leasing companies want all the profit without any risk, as most businesses do.
Of course when the heat gets too hot, they take their ball and go home (ie, will not do leases in those states).
We had a similar situation in my state over mortgage lenders. When the state legislature enacted a law to help prevent predatory lending, the mortgage portfolio raters lowered our mortgage ratings. This implied that big investors would not buy mortgage portfolios from our state because of the increased risk and it eventually got to the point that some mortgage companies were talking about not doing home loans in our state.
So of course the next year the legislature guts the law they passed the last year to help consumers, to please these powerful financial entities. So we are all back to normal with mortgages, even the part where these slimeball lenders can still practice predatory lending.
Thanks all.
The Sandman :-)
Dunno how much responsibility a person 'should' have for the use of property which he/she lends another.
"Who in their right mind would think that right?"
Not as simple an issue as it might seem, is what I'm saying.
"Its really just a big bullet that you ride in."
Unless of course they are joking. (Doesn't appear that way)
Simply amazing...
explain why vicarious liability is good for automobile leasing and how this helps the majority consumers? Other than much higher leasing costs for consumers, can you list some benefits??