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Huh? I'm lost by this--unless by "not ready to pull the trigger" you mean I will not pull the trigger under any circumstances. OTOH, I can come in there fully ready to buy, to pull the trigger if we agree on a price. I just hope "did not buy" does not equal "not ready to pull trigger" because they don't if we can't agree on a price. Just because I don't buy doesn't mean I am negotiating in bad faith.
"lastly, why would a SM commit to YOUR initial offer. thats the point of making an offer. if his name were on it BEFORE your offer, then it would be like signing a blank check."
I'm not sure what you mean. You say I have to initiate negotiations. I do so, and make an offer. You then question why the SM would commit to my initial offer. Perhaps it's such a great offer, the SM can't help but commit to it. So, in reality, I have to make *2* offers before I get the SM to commit? But I have to commit to my first one to convince the SM I serious, even though he won't commit to the the first? And you wonder why I don't want to sign a handwritten note?
Look, we can't understand car dealers, so why even try? You would probably have a better chance trying to understand String Theory.
Just figure out a way to buy a car that is enjoyable for you.
Joat and I have done this, and that is why we love car buying. You can do it too.
My next vehicle is a Dodge Ram pickup probably and there are no fewer than 5 Dodge dealers within 30-45 mins of my house (none in my small town). 2 of those are screamers. 1 is a big city dealer but I never hear a radio ad and occasionally see a newspaper ad. I realize that a rejection of my offer (which should be good, considering the research I do on Edmunds) means I need to drive 10 mins across town to another dealer. No big deal. The only thing with me is I won't even drive 10 mins to save $200. I just want my truck.
i know that. negotiating in bad faith is when people negotiate to get a lower price with no intention of buying for some reason. if you are willing to sign your name to 8-10 documents that, legally, favor the seller, why wouldnt you put your name on something thats designed to be on your side? if your number isnt agreed to, then your signature means nothing anyway.
imagine this scenario:
buyer: will you take $20000?
sales: possibly. will that make us a deal?
buyer: i dont know
what motivation do i have if i am 'sales' to say yes or no? and please dont say anything about 'maybe' or 'hope' or 'might' or things like that, because in the real world, those words dont exist. we have to be pragmatic here. (waiting to use that word for awhile) ;-)
by refusing to sign your offer (even if its on a clean worksheet), you are basically assuming the buyer's role in the above scenario. if the scenario continues:
sales: sure we will.
buyer: ok. thanks. let me get your card. ill call you.
this is what happens 99% of the time a discounted price is given without a commitment. another version:
sales: no way, sir...thats too low.
buyer: ok thanks...see ya.
you, as the buyer, might be willing to come up some, but i just shot that possibility down by saying no.
if you are willing to buy at the price you offer, a signature is the least of your worries.
No, bowke, I don't claim omnipresence. Just experience.
I know it by having bought cars, and by talking to friends and family who have bought cars.
Like I wrote before, a deposit with an offer is not the norm 'round here.
So they sit down on the CRV, and the sales guy tells them, rude and short, "the price went up $150 from last year's model, and we're not dealing". Okay, says Dan, what can you do for us on a lease? "You're better off at your credit union," he says. I guess we're going home, Dan says. And off they go.
THEN they get a call from Nick the Car Salesman a couple days later, telling them how good an offer they got on their Saturn, and why don't they come back and buy the CRV?
So, I wasn't there, but I know my friend Dan, and this is not the way to sell him. Who knows, maybe he wouldn't have reached a deal, but whatever happened to a nicely filled out buyer's order at MSRP as a starting point? Whatever happened to being curteous? Whatever happened to running the numbers on a lease -- CRVs have great residuals. This guy is a welder and looks the part, but he's a darned good one -- he can cut apart a aluminum Coke can and weld it back together. He does our cryo stuff and takes home a good paycheck. And they own their current cars outright.
This field is FULL of weirdos on both sides of the table. -M
The people didn't flinch, it seems, when the guy said they weren't discounting, so why not run lease numbers.
Not that you'd ever give an idiot like that a second chance, but a nice letter to the dealership's GM, explaining what happened, would be very effective.
You were kidding ..... right?
someone asks me for lease figures, i have to concentrate before i pee my pants with excitement!
;-)
2. we'll sell 'em all anyway, so why talk with someone who doesn't bow down for the privledge of paying MSRP.
What would your reaction be if asked such a question?
and "what's the least you can get by on, until you reach your goal?"
And, no, I didn't take the job.
Are you implying that this is how some dealerships hire the sales staff or ..... ?
buyer: will you take $20000?
sales: possibly. will that make us a deal?
buyer: i dont know
what motivation do i have if i am 'sales' to say yes or no?"
In that scenario, clearly none. I never said this process was the most horrible thing I could encounter in a dealership. I simply won't participate in it. In the above scenario, you say "possibly". What do you mean, possibly? If Venus and Mars reach their closest point to Earth at the same time within the next 12 hours? See, "possibly" makes me want to sign the offer even less, because I still have no idea if the offer is good or not. If you cannot approve the deal and you know the amount is WAAAY off, say so. My bad, I'll try again. If it's reasonable and you need SM approval anyway, go to him, come back, say ok and we're done.
I fully expect a counter, since you sure wouldn't agree to MY price without at least trying to get a couple bills more out of me, right? I still would likely agree to the counter, since I've got things to do. I just want to buy the vehicle--if I'm offering, that's what I intend to do.
"if the scenario continues:
sales: sure we will.
buyer: ok. thanks. let me get your card. ill call you.
this is what happens 99% of the time a discounted price is given without a commitment."
Which is why you do the signed offer. You ask to do that, I will say no. If you boot me, at least I learned I didn't want to buy there anyway. If you still take it to the SM and he ok's it, then I will agree to sign a contract and you have a sale. Of course, I realize you have no way of knowing I am NOT in the 99% above.
A question like, "Will you take $20000?" is not a bona-fide offer. It is simply a question.
"I will pay $20000 OTD for that Jazzmobile over yonder." - now that is a true offer. I think it deserves a Yes or No answer.
http://www.reviewjournal.com/lvrj_home/2004/Feb-03-Tue-2004/busin- ess/23130800.html
Hope the link works!
2020 Acura RDX tech SH-AWD, 2023 Maverick hybrid Lariat luxury package.
I shop, test-drive and establish salesperson relationships on weekday afternoons or evenings. This is when they have 30 - 60 minutes to give me to discuss the car and establish rapport. Things are slow then anyway and I make it clear that I am shopping, noy buying at that time.
When I return to make an offer, I am always willing to buy. No "what if's" or "would you sell it for XX" games. I make one firm offer (I know what the reasonable selling range is) and give them a certified check (made out to me) in that offer amount to show the sales manager. I let them take the (un-endorsed) check to the manager with a firm stipulation that the salesperson had better not return to me without that check, no matter what the manager's answer. (Only once did a dealership play games with the check; quickly rectified, I did not buy there)
I make it clear that is my one and only offer that day. If they reject, I'll make the same offer elsewhere. And if the same offer fails at competing dealership(s), I will be back in a day or two with an increased offer.
I think the keys here are that I am firm, straightforward and polite. I want them to know that if they say yes, they have a sale. To have them guessing at my intentions does not serve either party.
I know this method has worked for me to strike good deals, and do so quickly without tension or wasted time. Eliminating all uncertainty over my intentions, so we can both concentrate on negotiating price, serves both buyer and seller.
At delivery, many reps have told me they appreciated my businesslike approach. And I'd guess that, on average, my methods have placed me in the 80-90th percentile of "good deal" transactions. Some buyers might do a couple hundred dollars better, but being in the 80th percentile is good enough for me... life's too short.
At delivery, I also always give the salesperson a gift, typically $50 cash or a restaurant giftcard. It has come back to me many times over when having a "friend" at the store has been helpful.
sales: possibly. will that make us a deal?
buyer: i dont know
in my opinion, the buyer intends to find out how much the salesperson can bow down, as opposed to come down on price. The intent is to prove that the buyer is king and the salesperson is zilch.
A question like, "Will you take $20000?" is not a bona-fide offer. It is simply a question.
"I will pay $20000 OTD for that Jazzmobile over yonder." - now that is a true offer. I think it deserves a Yes or No answer."
Good point and I overlooked the difference. Still take the same scenario.
Buyer: I will pay $20000 for that vehicle OTD. Will you take it?
Sales: Possibly. Will you sign this cocktail napking to show committment?
Buyer: <scratches head, wonders where he went wrong>
My point is "possibly" type answers are frustrating. Either the salesperson will or will not take it. I prove committment by signing contracts. I prove seriousness by putting my rep on the line by offering $20000. If I wasn't serious or ready to buy, I do what I did last winter when I was researching trucks for my stepdad's company.
Me: My stepdad's co will be adding employees soon and I want to drive this truck, but I don't know when we will buy it. (This was before I came here and did not give any thought to how rude this might have been on a Saturday afternoon. Fortunately, it was about 15 degrees with a 20mph wind, so it was slow at the dealer).
Sales: Sure. Let's go.
That's it. I asked questions about a 1/2 ton handling a plow--he suggested one of those clear fiberglass ones instead of the heavier steel ones. Ok. What about stepbars, etc. He suggested that they install them. Well, ok.
He and I didn't really "hit it off" but he was nice enough and I still have his card, so he'll get first crack. He knew what I was doing right off the bat and I didn't ask any "so, uh, what do one these here trucks go fer" questions.
In our mind, everything except Yes means No.
Therefore "possibly" means No to us. We would get up and leave.
Nothing frustrating about it.
I think dealers prefer to start with the lease payment (just ask Bowke) because they can "hide" what you are really paying (ie MSRP). Same thing can happen to a payment buyer of course.
Anyway, if you have the lease factors set (residual %, down payment and money factor), the cap cost will directly impact your lease payment.
2020 Acura RDX tech SH-AWD, 2023 Maverick hybrid Lariat luxury package.
however...and drift can verify this...the SM will go ballistic when he finds out it turned out to be a lease deal. ;-)
Many people will happily waste a salesperson's time "negotiating" with no intent (or ability) to buy right then. And to a salesperson's eyes, you might be one of those. They have to cut thru that crap (they see time and time again) somehow to ascertain that you are qualified and ready to talk turkey.
What's the harm in initialing an offer or showing them the money? It is not an ego-game, its just business.
Showing them the money up-front just cuts through all that baloney and tells them right off that I'm there to do business: ready, willing and able.
Aren't both buyer and seller better off cutting through the mind-game crap?
Why is that? I have always thought that a unit was a unit, no matter how it is financed.
Sales: Possibly. Will you sign this cocktail napking to show committment?
Buyer: <scratches head, wonders where he went wrong> POSSIBLY.
Yes. And a good place to start is for the dealer not to initiate it. Sorry if you think when I was talking about my rep I was talking about an ego-game with the dealer. This assumption is the same error the salesperson would make. I don't need my ego stroked by a car salesman--my point is I am man of my word--thus, if I offer 20K, I have obligated myself to honor 20K. I don't need to sign a scratch piece of paper to justify that. I KNOW the salespeople cannot tell me from the 99% that blowing smoke.
"What's the harm in initialing an offer or showing them the money? It is not an ego-game, its just business.
Showing them the money up-front just cuts through all that baloney and tells them right off that I'm there to do business: ready, willing and able."
Showing them the money and inititaling an offer sheet is not the same thing. Period. Signing a sales contract is showing them the money. I could initial all offers until I am cramped and possibly permanently disfigured, but as has been said, they don't mean anything. So why sign it? Because it's an expedient way of "doing business"?
I offer x, SM agrees to X, I sign sales contract, review lease in F&I, leave. Very easy, no grinding, probably not a mini. I have to start doing offer sheets and mind/ego games with the SM and god knows who else, then I'm just leaving. I just want to buy a truck, for crying out loud.
"Buyer: <scratches head, wonders where he went wrong> POSSIBLY."
JPham, EXACTLY my point.
how is that?
so what you REALLY want is for the poor salesman to write up a whole contract, have you sign it, then come back to say your offer is too low? how many contracts would you have me write up, for crying out loud!? what if there are 3 or 4 counter-offers from each party?!?!?!?!
By the way, my store does strongly encourage salespeople to get a signed commitment before entering in to serious negotiations.
And from what I'm hearing, most people don't feel the need to honor the deal if its approved. And I'm also hearing that the pros don't give a hoot about the signature, initial, three x's or the chicken blood; they basically want to see whether the buyer is committed.
Typically, I get a hard stare from the salesman at this point, and they either believe me or give me the benefit of the doubt. I think that asking for a deposit at this point is silly, but it IS in the buyer's best interest to appear fully committed.
My first salesman on a new car is still my favorite.... I was 33 and looked younger, and I was biking to work on my 10-speed, and not looking very affluent... I made an offer, he said "I'll have to run it by my manager, but I think I can do that... Let me ask you this: Can you afford this car?" He was nice about it, too. Drove it home the next day.
-Mathias
Your offence at not being taken at your word points directly to your ego being in charge of the process. It's a business deal. Just do business and leave your hurt feelings at home. You'll enjoy the process a lot more because it'll become more about you getting a new car and less about beating a salesman.
Just like the person that asks a salesman, "What's the least you'll take for this car."
Landru said it well... show them the money or initial the offer worksheet and take any uncertainties over whether you are or are not a man of your word right out of the process.
As to initialing an offer worksheet if that's what they want... why not? The money's still in your pocket. You haven't signed a contract. Your trade's keys are still in your pocket.
Have you ever in your life heard of a dealer suing a consumer to consummate a sale on the basis of an initialed salesman's 4-square worksheet? By the time there was a verdict, that 2004 X-mobile would be last year's model and the dealer would have taken it in the shorts in carrying costs waiting for you to be forced to take it. It just isn't realistic.
For the record, I've said my latest dealing was pleasant, but I asked, "How much?" I don't believe that this is the same as "What's the least you'd take?" When I asked, "How much?", I basically accepted the offer because I believed it to be fair. I'm sure I could have gone to several local places and let them beat the offer by several hundred. In turn, I could have probably gone back to the original dealer and gotten a better deal than their original response to, "How much?"
I don't want to "play the fool", but I don't want to "grind out your fillings" either.
Let's face it. Most new cars are commodity items readily available at thousands of places nationwide. My wife and I both drove '03 models and I was looking to buy an '04, so this is clearly a "want", not a "need". A decent price was probably a catalyst in causing me to "go for it". I think it's very reasonable to want to know the price particulars so I could make a decision. BTW, had the answer to my "How much?" question been something like, "look at the sticker on the window", or "will you buy at $__K right now", I have no doubt at all that I would have lost my enthusiasm and would not have purchased at that time. What "led me to water" was the feeling that I could get a fair, honest deal without any hassles. I needed a new car less than I need hassles.
Jack
If the dealer doesn't accept that we are making a serious offer, we should not be at all offended.
We can either do more to prove that our offer is serious, or we can leave, which is what we would do.
Personally, I have never had the problem of the dealer not taking our offer seriously.
And I do my "buying" in a separate visit where all I do is come in to make one firm offer on one specific in-stock unit. If that first in-person offer is rejected (and it usually is) I have alternative dealer(s) with acceptable units in-stock I can visit that day to make the same offer (adjusting appropriately if units are not equipped exactly the same). If all my first-visit offers are rejected (the norm), the phone works fine thereafter to raise my offer (typically in $200 increments on mainstream cars) till someone says "yes".
The first in-person purchase visit(s) is (are) always done on Saturday, when things are busy. To me, the busier the better. And always the last Saturday of the quarter.
I choose a busy Saturday for price discussions so that they may be motivated to come to terms more quickly and avoid a lengthy grind when they have lots of other floor traffic (a grind I won't participate-in anyway).
End of quarter, I've read, is when many sales contests and factory incentives close, and one more unit sold may make a difference, even if the profit on that unit is marginal, the bonus it helps achieve may out-weigh the mini-deal.
Is this over-kill on my part? Do you sometimes approve offers on a Saturday you might work harder-on during slower times; just to get me outta there so the next prospect can be handled? And what is the dope on a dealer's end-of-quarter motivation to sell?
"you think he would take another inquiry if he didnt want to do this?"
"so what you REALLY want is for the poor salesman to write up a whole contract, have you sign it, then come back to say your offer is too low?"
Nope. Never said that. Take the offer to SM, if you must. If the offer is approved, I will sign a contract. It's not fair to expect you to do a contract on every offer and I've never said that's what I wanted.
"If I follow your line of thinking to its logical conclusion, then you must be offended by credit applications as well. Whether the credit is sought for a vehicle, or something else, your word is sufficient. Is this a correct assumption on my part?"
Not at all, brianw. It is a legal application that seeks specific information to determine my creditworthiness. I understand this and if it requires a signature, I'll gladly provide it. It's not the same as signing a handwritten offer that may or may not be approved or honored by the dealer.
"And from what I'm hearing, most people don't feel the need to honor the deal if its approved."
Mathias, not me. Again, if the offer is approved, I'll agree-because I made the offer. I don't have the time to play with salespeople, so the offer will be serious. OTOH, if the first offer is from the salesperson, I may need to counter-offer or I'll will likely accept.
"Your offence at not being taken at your word points directly to your ego being in charge of the process. You'll enjoy the process a lot more because it'll become more about you getting a new car and less about beating a salesman."
Landru, it honestly has nothing to do with "beating a salesman". You can interpret my refusal to sign the offer as an ego play, but you'd be wrong. If it's just an offer, it shouldn't need to be signed because I have no assurance it will be honored (despite the fact the salesperson wants it signed to psych me into thinking *I* have to honor it).
""...my point is I am man of my word..." may apply to you, but that's in a world where it is true of way too few people."
And those people are not *my* problem, Hankr. I couldn't care less about the silly things they do to make a salesperson's job harder--those things just make it harder to buy a vehicle--too bad for them.
"Landru said it well... show them the money or initial the offer worksheet and take any uncertainties over whether you are or are not a man of your word right out of the process."
Again, showing them the money and signing the "offer" are not the same thing to me. The contract is showing them the money and it's when I know we are both committing to the same thing. With an offer, *I* don't know that the dealer is committed, but they know *I* am. And if their uncertainty about my intention to honor a deal becomes an overriding factor, then it's a good clue to me to go somewhere else. I'm there to buy a car, not participate in a pyschological experiment or persuade them of my ethics.
But next time you are in Wal-Mart, look at the people around you. It is sorta like police-profiling, but this is the real-world. This is also the mainstream car-buying public.
How many of those people would think nothing of entering into a 90-minute haggle for the car they "want" only to finally disclose they are already $6K upside-down in their current drive and don't have a prayer of getting approved? Or they are unemployed?
And clearly, qualifying prospects takes different methods in different stores. I'd guess the Chevy store has to be a bit more "aggressive" than the Audi store (though I'm sure the Audi store has plenty of war-stories too).